7 and Chakotay did anyone see that coming???

[exodus]

What else could it have meant but that she definitely was attracted to him?

Attraction is one thing.

That doesn't equate to love at first sight.

I don't think anyone was trying to equate it to that. However, Janeway's question indicates Chakotay had mentioned enough details of their lives in the future to make her wonder about their future relationship.

How long was Chakotay supposed to wait for her?

What if Voyager never made it home?

What if it still look longer than seven years?

There was never the promise of either of them giving up command for a romantic relationship. They couldn't, so it never could happen. Chakotay did what anybody would do, he moved on.

 

[teya]

Actually, you've really made my point. Her question confirms that she was attracted to him, as you say, and while she might not have acted upon it while in the AQ and while her fiance is nearby, she wondered whether she might have done so while 70,000 light years away and working closely with him every day. That question, it seems to me, confirms, at last, that the attraction was mutual, even if she never found a "good time" to explore it during the series.

And while I, too, wonder about love at first sight between people, I am a believer in lust at first sight.

Actually, no, what I've done is confirm that she was attracted to him--not that the relationship was inevitable. Given their circumstances, given her personality, given her devotion to duty, she didn't pursue it in the DQ. And Chakotay shouldn't be expected to wait indefinitely, as exodus and May20 note.

Now, it certainly does open the door for an AU in which they get together either in the DQ or upon return to Earth. And I think "Endgame" leaves the door wide open for any shipper scenario a fan might want--C/7, J/C, J/7, and so on... After all, time is changed.

I'm not trying to win you over to C/7 and I wouldn't want to. I'm just saying that J/C wasn't inevitable and that there are compelling cases for other shipper scenarios, including the one TPTB went with.

 

[JM1776]

teya's fan fiction is great!

Yes ... significantly better written than the canonical romance itself.

She actually makes C/7 seem credible—which Voyager itself never quite managed.

 

[kimc]

How long was Chakotay supposed to wait for her?

What if Voyager never made it home?

What if it still look longer than seven years?

There was never the promise of either of them giving up command for a romantic relationship. They couldn't, so it never could happen. Chakotay did what anybody would do, he moved on.

Actually, there is no episode where Janeway tells Chakotay he's expected to wait for her. She was engaged up until she got her "Dear Janeway" letter but after that there was no reason to wait.

 

[teya]

Actually, there is no episode where Janeway tells Chakotay he's expected to wait for her. She was engaged up until she got her "Dear Janeway" letter but after that there was no reason to wait.

So, why didn't she get involved with him?

Oh, yeah... Because Janeway wouldn't get involved with a subordinate.

So, again, how long should Chakotay have waited for her to decide it was okay?

 

[teya]

teya's fan fiction is great!

Yes ... significantly better written than the canonical romance itself.

She actually makes C/7 seem credible—which Voyager itself never quite managed.

Aw, thanks.

Nice to see you around these parts, BTW. :thumbsup:

 

[AuntKate]

Actually, there is no episode where Janeway tells Chakotay he's expected to wait for her. She was engaged up until she got her "Dear Janeway" letter but after that there was no reason to wait.

So, why didn't she get involved with him?

Oh, yeah... Because Janeway wouldn't get involved with a subordinate.

So, again, how long should Chakotay have waited for her to decide it was okay?

The same amount of time she had to wait, of course!

 

[teya]

^ See, I don't find that realistic, nor fair to the guy... But whatever works for you.

 

[AuntKate]

^ See, I don't find that realistic, nor fair to the guy... But whatever works for you.

It wasn't fair or realistic for the gal, either, but they didn't have much choice--a fact that makes their mutual sacrifice both poignant and heroic, IMHO. And, yeah, it does work for me!

 

[kimc]

^ You want to talk about unfair last night I watched "Casablanca" for probably the hundreth time. Was it fair that Rick lost Ilsa in Paris? Nope. Was it fair that Ilsa had no control over her destiny and no matter which man she got on the plane with it would have been the wrong man? Nope. But as Bogart said, "...it doesn't take much to see that the problems of three little people don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world."

There was something epic about the attraction between J&C, the situation they were in and how they both put the crew first. Sure, it's probably not appealing to the "instant gratification set' but it works for me too.

 

[exodus]

^ See, I don't find that realistic, nor fair to the guy... But whatever works for you.

It wasn't fair or realistic for the gal, either, but they didn't have much choice--a fact that makes their mutual sacrifice both poignant and heroic, IMHO. And, yeah, it does work for me!

Come on, it's not like Janeway never bent the rules before.

 

[teya]

There was something epic about the attraction between J&C, the situation they were in and how they both put the crew first.

And in an AU, if Chakotay waits for her without any indication that it will come to pass, yes, that's a classic romance. But those classic romances have never been my cuppa. Sorry.

And I'll just skip over the "instant gratification set.". Cute quip, but in my case, inaccurate.

 

[CaptainJon]

Unfortunately, they abandoned the J/C relationship once 7-of-9 came aboard to develop the J/7 thing. It's a real shame too, cuz Mulgrew and Beltran had some really good onscreen chemistry. You could really believe that these two could become more than just friends.

7 and Chakotay? Somebody definitely pulled that one out of their ass just to give Chakotay something to do for two hours!

 

[Good Will Riker]

^ You want to talk about unfair last night I watched "Casablanca" for probably the hundreth time. Was it fair that Rick lost Ilsa in Paris? Nope. Was it fair that Ilsa had no control over her destiny and no matter which man she got on the plane with it would have been the wrong man? Nope. But as Bogart said, "...it doesn't take much to see that the problems of three little people don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world."

There was something epic about the attraction between J&C, the situation they were in and how they both put the crew first. Sure, it's probably not appealing to the "instant gratification set' but it works for me too.

When I think long and hard when it comes to Casablanca (My favorite film), I have come to the conclusion that Rick was just Ilsa's "fling," and that she was devoted to her husband all along. Even more so, when she found out that her husband was alive and well.

You really have to see this from the woman's (Ilsa's) point-of-view. Is she really going to divorce her husband who she is faithful to, reveres, and deeply loves and wants to protect at all costs so that she could run away with a man who was a brief, one-time fling, no matter how passionate their short time together was?

No...I am sorry to say eventhough Rick was heartbroken by that whole ordeal, he's a man who has lived through a lot of disappointments in his life on his way to achieving his successes, and he's just going to have to live with it. That's what men have to do. Even when it hurts -- and hurts deeply -- they have to suck it up and march forward. And, move on...

 

[BORU]

I will admit to watching Endshame one time and one time only - that was more than enough.

The whole thing seemed to be a rush to close so that the Clown College could go play with their new baby Enterprise. I never saw, nor will I ever see, the storyline that lead to the Seven/Chakotay pairing as anything but a thrown together piece of poor story writing that did nothing for the makeup of either character.

As to any regulations that forbid captain and first officer or crewman from having a relationship- there weren't any, period. Remember the episode with Picard where Troi and he are discussing his feelings for a crewman? Troi, to sum up, states that there are no regulations against it. It may be difficult, it may cause problems if not handled correctly and it may be that at any time the captain has to make the tough decision to send a loved one into harms way BUT there are no regulation against the captain having a relationship with a member of his/her crew.

I firmly believe that the character of Janeway had too much input from the actress who portrayed her and Mulgrew has said, again shortening the various statements, that Janeway should be all about the ship, the journey and the WHOLE crew, a woman alone, a sort of Queen Elizabeth I of the Delta Quad. She implied that Janeway couldn't have it all which I really feel did a disservice to the character and to women in general especially coming from a woman who juggles a career, marriage and children.

And then there were the writers who couldn't seem to grasp what made a woman a woman and what made this situation unique, a ship captained by a woman. She was allowed to be the mother without ever having any benefits of being a wife or lover. She could have all the kids she wanted as long as they were Kim's age or older. She could have male friends as long as they weren't friends with benefits or they wouldn't be around in the next episode.

Be it Chuckles, the AOTW or even Neelix, she could and should have had some downtime loving so to speak just because she was a woman of strong emotions. Hell the male captains did but with the character of Janeway it seemed everyone was scare to either take the chance or just didn't know how to write for a woman unless they wrote her as an asexual Mother Hen or GI Jane.

Star Trek really does not do women well and that's a shame. Be it Seven, Janeway, Beverly, Troi or my personal pet peeve Uhura, they never seem to make it consistently woman. Woman are fascinating, complex creatures why not show them in all their glory instead of defining them by the men around them or with huge "I am woman, hear me roar" sticks up their butts?

Seven and Chuckles, no, no way. Quite frankly they both deserved better.

Seven needed, once home. to step outside of the Voyager Collective and embrace new experience and new people. Chuckles deserved for once to have a woman who didn't try to assimilate him, wipe out his memory, turn into a huge bug, disregard his advice or basically kick him in the hoohays - mentally of course, every chance they got! In my head Chucles finds/meets Tessa when the return because she seemed like the only woman who truly loved him without any reservation.

That is assuming they made it home before the need to start reproducing kicked in. Not saying they couldn't have found an attraction and a level of love but not as presented by this rush to close that was cooked up, plopped down on a platter and serve to the fans as gourmet writing.

Could Seven/Chuckles have happen? Yes with a better buildup and better writing. Did it happen? Not in my head and really in the long run isn't that all that counts that we see resolution for these characters the way we want?

We can all apply, god knows the Clown College did often enough, the reset button and flesh the ending the way we want.

I know I did as soon as that thing went off and I went "What the hell was that!"

 

[kimc]

But those classic romances have never been my cuppa. Sorry.

That's too bad - the classics often become classic for good reason.

You really have to see this from the woman's (Ilsa's) point-of-view. Is she really going to divorce her husband who she is faithful to, reveres, and deeply loves and wants to protect at all costs so that she could run away with a man who was a brief, one-time fling, no matter how passionate their short time together was?

Actually as I woman I can see how she could be in love with both men but in different ways. As I mentioned before part of Ilsa's tragedy is that she was not in control of her own destiny - that was hammered out between Rick and her husband.

Back to Voyager J&C did have choices. They made the choice to make the welfare of the crew a priority. Sure, immediate lust can burn itself out but if you love someone that can remain whether you sleep with them or not. I just wish the writers had chosen to resolve things beyond the "there are barriers we never cross" line. The only thing they resolved was that they weren't sleeping together. A "you're like a sister to me" would have been a more final resolution if they really wanted to put an end to it and have one of them move on to another romance. Apparently, C/7 wasn't even on the radar at that time plus alienating a large viewership like the J/C crowd probably isn't something you want to do until the last episode.

We can all apply, god knows the Clown College did often enough, the reset button and flesh the ending the way we want.

I know I did as soon as that thing went off and I went "What the hell was that!"

That was my exact same reaction when the credits rolled. While I wasn't expecting J/C to ride off into the sunset together I still had hope. Even so I would have been happy with a neutral ending. Thanks to "Endgame" though the online J/C community is still thriving long after it probably would have otherwise. It really seem to get people creatively fired up.!

 

[teya]

But those classic romances have never been my cuppa. Sorry.

That's too bad - the classics often become classic for good reason.

Oh, trust me, I enjoy a great many classics of other genres. It's just the romance genre that I don't particularly like.


To each his own, I always say. Obviously your mileage varies on that, too.

 

[exodus]

Also in some classics, the guy doesn't always get the girl.

Very Shakespearian.

 

[kimc]

Also in some classics, the guy doesn't always get the girl.

Very Shakespearian.

Sometimes not only does the guy not get the girl but he's often carried off the stage by the end of the play.

That's not to say I don't enjoy a good, fluffy romantic comedy now and then but they're not always the most dramatically interesting, imo.

 

[exodus]

Sometimes not only does the guy not get the girl but he's often carried off the stage by the end of the play.

That's usually because of the bullet wound most heroes seem to suffer at the end of every classic story.


"Shane, come back!!!"