I think this is a position you have made very clear... Also for those who question the editors motives, do you think that they didn't consider that all this might come about (well maybe not all of this, some of it is frankly ridiculous in my opinion, but in the interests of politeness I won't say what) but weighed the pros and cons, agonised over the decision and ultimately decided that this would become a very good story. For the matter of Kes, I have to say I don't like the way she was gotten rid of, and in my opinion Voyager could have survived as a series with one extra lead character. BUT If a person says they were not much of a fan of Voyager anyway after Kes left, then Janeway's death (more than half a decade in the Trek Timeline and a decade in the real world later) should be neither here nor there. Of course I understand that the argument is that in the relaunch there was a hope that Kes (and Neelix) would be reintroduced...but lets consider these characters for a moment.... Neelix had probably the best ending for his character. He was reunited with his people, found a true purpose and a family...the end...it practically has a nice bow on. So I don't want Neelix back, purely for the reason he now deserves to enjoy the rest of the life he has made/is making for himself. Kes...was born in 2371~~ish? anyway Voyager returns to the DQ in 2381...10 years later...we've had previous posts saying that people don't like technobabble, and people don't like super-hero-characters. Therefore Kes would have died in 2380 (at the latest, 9 years was the high end.) And if they had chosen to keep her, then I would have wanted the editors to be brave enough to allow her to live her natural life...now wait, read the rest of my post before you write that...Kes was a wonderful character because she was a commentary on the human condition, our age of innocence (childhood) is becoming ever shorter, and we live our lives so quickly...it would have sullied everything that Kes stood for to then turn around and say "oh yeah btw we made a machine that means she'll live a century" By the same token, Admiral Janeway's death was meaningful. Complain all you like about Before Dishonour (those of you who have read it) but the scene where Janeway dies is one of the best scenes PAD has written. Why? Because in that moment he got Janeway. Totally. Her drive, her ambition, her stubbornness, he got exactly what had pushed her to do this, and gave her the chance to die as she had lived her life. (Those of you who have read Before Dishonour will know exactly what I mean, those who haven't will be forced to prattle "I don't care - Janeway should live full stop (or period if you're reading this across the pond). My point exactly... Fondest Wishes JW Bonsall.
There are all kinds of books in literature that have unhappy endings or explore the impact of the main character's death. There is definitely a place for that on the bookshelves. But Star Trek isn't in the Literature section, is it? The real truth is that Star Trek isn't really "literature" and has never been about "reality." It has always been a "feel good" future, and its fans and readers have every right to expect that to continue. If I want to read a depressing book about the "impact of death on those left behind," I have plenty to pick from in the Literature Section at Borders. All I want from Star Trek novels are some nice escapist books with the characters I love; that's all I ask. Janeway is the star of Star Trek Voyager, and without her, it isn't the same series. They should rename the next book "Star Trek Delta Quadrant: Unworthy" so that Voyager fans will know that it is NOT a continuation of the series as we know and love it. I also think that TPTB on this board should re-lable the "Literature" forum the "Published Novel" forum. As a lit major, I barely repress a chuckle when I see these novels called "literature."
How rude...great literature can affect a person, make them think, change their perspective and inspire debate... Exactly how aren't the Star Trek Books Literature Auntie Kate? Also, why do people keep saying that the Trek Books have unhappy endings? "The good ended good, the bad not so...for that is fiction" Oscar Wilde was right then and is now!
To me, literature is a step above popular fiction in that it represents a achievement in form or thought that make it a universally meaningful and permanent part of the "human library." Call me a snob, but that's the way I feel. That isn't to say that popular fiction can't make people think or bring about discussion, because, obviously, it can. The question is, will it still be in print in twenty years?
Nah that's not snobby, it's intellectual! And the Forum isn't called literature it's called Star Trek Literature...ie Literature about Star Trek. Janeways' death and the novels exploring it will become a proponent of the Star Trek Universe, probably forever. It's of no interest to 99.999999% of the world, but to that tiny .000001% it is... So the books may not be "literature" but they are "Star Trek" Literature... Sorry that probably made no sense, but I know what I mean!
Hello, all, when I posted my recent since 1st comment, I hadn't read all the comments (I was moved to post a little early, because I have been searching for a message board where I could express my dismay about Janeway's death & I had to get it out), altho many of them, but now I have read them all, including the ones from FC's author, who, BTW, I think is a very good writer (I liked "Isabo's Shirt," for example). But I have to respond, as just an average Trek fan since the 70's (who watched all the series, and movies & have read many books), to one of her comments, about how they've created this new Admiral (Batiste) that we are now supposed to accept, instead of Janeway. Excuse me, (sorry to sound so peevish) the new guy wasn't ON TV for SEVEN YEARS, 100+ episodes, was not the STAR of the show, is not the person we were supposed to identify with for so long. So, he (& the new captain), might be interesting characters, and it might be worthwhile to read about them, but not to replace such a beloved (by many, not by all, of course) character. I'm sorry, Voyager without Janeway in it somehow (besides a memory) is like coffee without the beans - it just isn't the same. I can understand creative people wanting to mix things up a little, but killing off the main character of a show just to do something different is (IMHO - I know I'm not a big-shot editor who doesn't care if loyal fans are truly upset) just a causing a wound that may not heal. And I sat through Spock's (my 1st favorite Trek character) death several times in the theater, so I'm not exactly someone who demands HEA's, just something that makes a little sense, and unfortunately, KJ's death, just to be shocking, just doesn't do it. Star Trek can include death, of course, just maybe not the (well, ok, Kirk's death was pretty dumb, too, but at least there were books where he came back ) ding dong reason that so many people became Voyager fans. I agree with some of the other posters that no Janeway means it's not really Voyager anymore, and that makes me rather sad. I know I'm just a "little person" but I needed to say this. GS. PS, my "rant" is not in any way meant to demean the efforts of the writer (who I know just inherited the situation) in penning a probably good book (as I said before, I did read a little of it), but just to express my feelings, which don't matter much to anyone but me, but that's what message boards are for, I think.
It's okay to rant, as long as you have your facts straight. The editor and writers involved have said that the decision was made to explore new storytelling possibilities, not to shock people. Also, those of us who have read the book have picked up on some hints that Admiral Batiste's storyline is going to be very different from what Janeway might have experienced in his place. He's not a substitute for Janeway, he's a very different character. Hell, in the first half of Full Circle, Janeway's flatly opposed to Batiste's plan. Finally, the books went in the direction they did because the TV series and the movies changed Voyager's status quo. If you want to write Voyager set in the "now" of 24th century Star Trek, you have to deal with the fact that Kes and Neelix are out of the picture. You have to deal with the fact that Janeway was promoted to admiral. You have to deal with the fact that the crew got home and their lives have dramatically changed. You also have to deal with the fact that things have happened in the Federation in the other series books, because they're all really one series: Star Trek. (Kinda sucks if you're a Voyager fan who doesn't like any other Star Trek, but if Voyager was intended to be something separate, it wouldn't have been called Star Trek: Voyager. It wouldn't have built on storylines set up in TNG and DS9. It wouldn't have had guest stars from TNG. And Janeway wouldn't have appeared in Nemesis.)
Well here's for Snobs United, but that's my attitude as well. Dostoevsky is literature, Trek is not. Yes, some people may think Trek is literature, but some Mills & Boon fans will think the same about their books as well - and if someone tells me I have to class M&B as literature I will laugh in their face. That's not to say that Trek can't be a fun read (whether or not you think it is is another question), but that's not the same thing. Edit: Trek is better than M&B - I don't mean to imply they are on the same level. But if one accepts the "but someone thinks it's literature!" for one, one must accept it for the other.
Hello, I looked for a board like this because I really needed to express myself. And it appears that Janeway was killed mostly because it was just decided to do it - someone seemed to have had the idea first - didn't they think fans of KJ would be shocked (I know it didn't matter to them, but it doesn't mean it wouldn't happen)? We're (fans that stood by Voyager for so long) just supposed to accept that exploring new storylines in Voyager (part of the current Star Trek world yes, but still a bunch of characters that were supposed to mean something, even if they weren't in the same place anymore) could only come from killing off such an important woman character in Trek? Of course once KJ was gone, then the storyline would evolve, but it didn't have to be THAT way - it just came from someone's decision. That's what I'm not happy about - not that writers then will have to make something out of it. Not that things might be different in the AQ & there might be new people. New directions is one thing, destroying the lead character after not much time (since they got home) is another. I would probably feel somewhat the same way if Picard was suddenly wiped out, but at least he's had more stories. I know they killed Kirk, but he was brought back in a way. But, if Janeway is so expendable, then I guess anyone is (or maybe a whole group), no matter how much they meant to us, as was the point in creating the show. And I'm just saying, for myself, maybe that is too much to spend money on - being creative is valid, creating such heartbreak (OK I'm going overboard, but I can't help it, sorry) not so much. But I'm just a long-time Trek fan, what do I know? GS. PS. it is too bad that I probably can't read what seems to be a good Voyager book, as I was fond of all the characters, but I just don't like being stomped on. Oh well, I've had my say, Thanks!
I can see some of your points, still I have to disagree with some of your statements. I'm sure that the editors did take a lot into consideration. Still they made a very bad decision, a decision which will make many fans turn their back on the books. As for Kes and Neelix, I do admit that I once did have some hopes that they would return. When it comes to Neelix, that's no problem. Just write a story when he gets tired of living a boring life on that asteroid and start looking for his old friends. When it comes to Kes, the lifespan was the flaw in the character but as we have seen in episodes like "Cold Fire", it could be prolonged. It took me five minutes to create such a scenario in my "Coming Home" story and I don't think it's ruining the character in any way because Kes's main attribute is her personality, not the lifespan. Besides that, it wouldn't make her a "super hero" since she would have her somewhat limited powers (not the ridiculous powers they came up with in "The Gift" just to get rid of her). Besides that, Voyager already had a super-hero in Seven who could fix everything with her Borg probes and Borg knowledge, from the malfunctioning warp core to Janeway's malfunctioning hair-dryer and Neelix's stove. We also had a moving image who turned more and more into a super-being for every season since he got the emitter. Not to mention Wesley Crusher and Data in TNG. Kes isnt or wouldn't be close to that. I must also state that the lack of those characters was one of the reasons for my discontent with the "Voyager Relaunch". It was too much of the season 4-7 scenario for me. Not to mention the split-up of the crew. But there was always hope that the relaunch should turn out to something better in the long run. besides that, I used to keep an eye on the relaunch in order to adapt own stories to what was going on there. If some interesting character should show up or some important event take place, then I could include that character and admit the event in some possible own story. Besides that, I always considered the events in the relaunch as the continuation of the Voyager story and I often used to state, "better with a bad Voyager relaunch than no relaunch at all". All of that has changed with the annihilation of Janeway. There's no hope for a better relaunch in the future, there's no idea of even bother to keep an eye on the relaunch for own story purposes and there's no use to read about the remnants of the crew when the main character, one of the best Star Trek characters has been wiped out. Personally I don't care how, why and when Janeway was killed off and I don't see any glorious in it. What we do have is a continuing "Voyager" stroy without one of it's best characters, actually the main character of the series and that scenario is totally uninteresting for me. For me it is the final straw in a long row of dissapointments with "official" Star Trek.
He was settling down and getting married, why can't he be allowed to live the domestic dream? Why not? And seriously you should read FC, because the book agrees with you. Why not read the books purely for entertainment? I've read people writing about how much Janeway's death has hurt and angered them, but I would like to make sure we are all clear on one thing...She's not a real person...she is a character on a tv show and in a few books, but she is not real, her death therefore was not real...I can appreciate that her death may have affected people, deeply... but it was now more than a year to go, and we need to be entering the acceptance phase...
If we start with Neelix, since he is a fictional character it's not that important if he's allowed to live a domestic life, not when he's more fun and entertaining as a member of the Voyager crew. Reading books for entertainment is my main purpose but the absence of characters I love makes it hard to do so when it comes to Star Trek Voyager books written after season 3 of the TV series. Yes, I know that Janeway isn't a real person and her death isn't real either. But Star Trek Voyager is a nice and fun pastime and sometimes a nice escape from a not to friendly reality and when I enter that world after a long day of work or a rainy Saturday, then I want to read about my favorites, not see them being killed off or destroyed. As for acceptance, acceptance is surrender and surrender has never been an option for the Lynx. I haven't accepted the destruction of Kes so why should I accept the annihilation of Janeway? "Never surrender when you're up against the wall Never surrender stand up-fight them all" "Never Surrender" Saxon
Okey dokey then... Why? If you're only reading the book to be entertained, who's doing the entertaining shouldn't make a difference... Reasonable point, there has been far too much death in Trek Lit at the minute, but sadly it reflects the times we live in, most authors tend to write that way to a degree... I know this, but now that he has been removed from the series then we should let him rest I think, Neelix is the only character who had a beginning, middle and end, and so shoehorning him back into the series just for the hell of it would seem tacky, (having said that if he turned up for a genuine reason instead of boredom, then I wouldn't mind) I refer you to Glasvegas "Daddy's Gone" Replace the word he with she (or they)...
Oh definately, and I have accepted that some people were upset by this and still are.. But we're all reaching a common ground now, with things I think we can agree on: *Janeway Died *Everyone who knows about it responded, one way or another *The Q ending made a difference to the death *The relaunch has been irrevocably affected by Janeway's death
I've been staying out of the various "discussions" about Janeway's demise and the books in which it's depicted but I feel compelled to chip in at this juncture. Having read Before Dishonour, I have to say I couldn't disagree more with this statement. To each their own, of course, but I thought Janeway's death was very poorly handled and for me it represented the nadir of PAD's Trek writing. Her death wasn't much more than a footnote in a mediocre TNG novel and while the Janeway character wasn't to everyone's taste she merited something better than that. I'd liked PAD's writing for years but it had been impressing me less and less, and the way he wrote Janeway's death has ensured I won't buy another thing he's written. Not because he "killed" Janeway - I'm aware that wasn't his decision - but because it was written so poorly. If it worked for you that's fine - again, to each their own. But I thought it was crap, and from the bloke who wrote stuff as good as Q-in-Law, Imzadi, Q-Squared and Vendetta (not to mention his Babylon 5 trilogy) it was particularly disappointing. Well, I'm quite aware Janeway (along with all the other characters in the Trek universe) is a fictional character, that she's not real and that her death isn't real. It's the main reason I haven't gotten particularly worked up about her "death" or participated in the various threads about these books. Along with Picard she's by far my favourite Trek captain so I'm not impressed that she was bumped off, particularly in such a badly-written (IMO) manner, but I'm not going to get worked up about it. But that's me. To each their own. I'm sure everyone in this thread is as aware as I am that Janeway is fictional but that hardly precludes those people from wanting to see more of that character in the books, or from being annoyed / upset / whatever that that won't happen. And while some of the reactions may be / have been...err...a bit over the top, I've seen worse. Slightly more on topic, I haven't decided yet if I want to read Full Circle. I've really lost interest in the Trek books and been unimpressed with almost every one I've read in recent years. However, given Kirsten Beyer's graciousness in dealing with some of the comments her book has attracted I'm leaning toward giving the book a go and seeing if she has been able to make a silk purse out of that reeking sow's ear.
That's the first thing anyone's said that makes me seriously consider reading it. I decided to leave reading F/C or not up to fate, I placed a bid on ebay the other day for someone's read-once copy at the lowest acceptable bid and decided to wait a few days and see if I won. Unfortunately it's now just 2 days to go and nobody else has outbid me......
^^^ You would be very luck to win that auction - it is an excellent book and I look forward to Unworthy. For all the debate; I for one did not feel entirely qualified to remark on it until I had read it. Knowing you will hate it and confirming it are two different things. I knew I would hate it but after reading it - love it.
I remember buying Voyager books in 1995-1997. The books that I really REALLY enjoyed were: Ragnarok, Ghost of a Chance, Mosaic, Pathways, and the Spirit Walk books. In Ghost of a Chance, the book was so good that I couldn't even put it down for a minute! I adored Mosaic as well as Pathways-this book shows a different side to the characters that I've never seen before. The ending made me literally gasp for air!!! :O