Spoiler! DONT HATE ME! I liked FC

[JB2005]

J.Bartlett

good old Jed!

7 long years

yup, they had their time now it's someone elses turn

and of course you can identify with the characters...just because they're in a book doesn't alter that

 

[Lynx]

J.Bartlett

good old Jed!

7 long years

yup, they had their time now it's someone elses turn

and of course you can identify with the characters...just because they're in a book doesn't alter that

I have no problems to identify with characters in books, after all there are some good ones in the Voyager books, not to mention those I've created myself in my own stories.

But in this case, I will find it hard to relate to them because they are replacing characters who are much better.

 

[Octavia]

I don't really understand all this resistance to relaunch crews, they're only trying to do a job after all!

To me, relaunch crews (and I'm speaking generally here, not just Voyager-specific) seem like watered down original fiction. If I want to read original SF fiction, there's a heap of actual stuff out there that I haven't got my mitts on yet, that I'd prefer to spend my time and money on.

Say new character Joe Bloggs comes along, and to get attached to Joe I have to read through all the character building that makes him into an interesting creation. I'd simply rather do that in an entirely new environment that I can learn about at the same time - it makes for a more challenging read.

Never-ending world-building in the same environment is one of my personal bugbears when it comes to genre (SFF) fiction - although others feel differently, no doubt. It's a subjective thing, world-building. Increasingly, it pisses me off no end - perhaps I'm just growing away from franchise fiction in general; not to mention those never-ending non-Trek series currently polluting the shelves of my local bookshops like greedy, repetitive octopi.

 

[kimc]

To me, relaunch crews (and I'm speaking generally here, not just Voyager-specific) seem like watered down original fiction. If I want to read original SF fiction, there's a heap of actual stuff out there that I haven't got my mitts on yet, that I'd prefer to spend my time and money on. Say new character Joe Bloggs comes along, and to get attached to Joe I have to read through all the character building that makes him into an interesting creation. I'd simply rather do that in an entirely new environment that I can learn about at the same time - it makes for a more challenging read. Never-ending world-building in the same environment is one of my bugbears when it comes to genre (SFF) fiction. Increasingly, it pisses me off no end - perhaps I'm just growing away from franchise fiction in general.

That's an interesting point. Wanting to read about a character you enjoy doesn't mean you don't enjoy new characters - you're just disappointed that your favorite is no longer around. Also, not liking Janeway's death doesn't mean you have a problem with death. Heck, I adore BSG but I knew going in that people were going to die. I recently read a book that takes place during the plague and people were dropping like flies but it was so beautifully written I would read it again.

When people watch or read Trek they want to see Kirk, Picard, Sisko and Janeway. Yes they can have trials and conflict but in the end we expect them to triumph. It's just the nature of the beast I guess...

 

[joyofvgr]

Can you tell me why we should invest time with any new character when the much loved older one has been treated so badly? If you did it once it can be done again.

Brit

No.

You should invest your time and money in stories you are likely to enjoy. And though I do not think you should read Full Circle, it is not because I fear for your becoming attached to characters other than Janeway, be they old or new, and then those characters suffering fates you might find offensive.

You have indicated time and again that Janeway's fate alone determines your ability to enjoy a story. So there was no way for you to take pleasure in a story that features her death.

So don't read it.

However, I reject your premise that she was treated badly...particularly in Full Circle. I believe that it was possible for her to die and be treated well in the story. Turns out a number of readers agree with me. I've read a lot of criticisms by people who have read the book, but I have yet to come across one who thought Janeway's character was badly done in Full Circle. Disliking the fact that she died is not the same as disliking her character as it was portrayed.

I'm still not saying you should read it. But you should rest easier knowing that her character was not destroyed or otherwise bent, spindled or mutilated on her way to meeting her death and should not fear for the fate of other characters you might someday come to care about.

Kirsten Beyer

I think Brit's point was more along the lines of why should she bother becoming attached to any character that can be so easily killed off. If they can do it to Janeway, they can do it to any of the others for the sake of the story. Perhaps the story is worth it, but I guess time will tell.

As KimC pointed out above, it's not so much about being against the death of a character, it's about expectations. Now for some, the death of Janeway was an interesting developement and peaked their interest in Voyager, for others it's a deal breaker, it's as simple as that.

I was invested emotionally in the main characters of Voyager, so a book without all of them, including Janeway, just isn't the same. It might as well be a different series featuring some of the old crew. I also remain close minded because I've read so many wonderful post endgame fan fics, even some great post Spirit Walk II fics, so I know that there are stories out there featuring the crew the way I'd like to see them. And although some believe that fan fic is nothing more than self gratification, there are some very good stories out there that are far more than that! (I'm not a writer, just an avid reader).

I've read many reviews regarding Full Circle, both here and on other websites and forums. Although many have commented that the story was great and Janeway's death was treated beautifully, few have agreed with the move and many have asked for her return. The words "bitter sweet" seem to appear frequently. I just prefer the "sweet" myself.

 

[neogothboy74]

Can you tell me why we should invest time with any new character when the much loved older one has been treated so badly? If you did it once it can be done again.

Brit

No.

You should invest your time and money in stories you are likely to enjoy. And though I do not think you should read Full Circle, it is not because I fear for your becoming attached to characters other than Janeway, be they old or new, and then those characters suffering fates you might find offensive.

You have indicated time and again that Janeway's fate alone determines your ability to enjoy a story. So there was no way for you to take pleasure in a story that features her death.

So don't read it.

However, I reject your premise that she was treated badly...particularly in Full Circle. I believe that it was possible for her to die and be treated well in the story. Turns out a number of readers agree with me. I've read a lot of criticisms by people who have read the book, but I have yet to come across one who thought Janeway's character was badly done in Full Circle. Disliking the fact that she died is not the same as disliking her character as it was portrayed.

I'm still not saying you should read it. But you should rest easier knowing that her character was not destroyed or otherwise bent, spindled or mutilated on her way to meeting her death and should not fear for the fate of other characters you might someday come to care about.

Kirsten Beyer

I think Brit's point was more along the lines of why should she bother becoming attached to any character that can be so easily killed off. If they can do it to Janeway, they can do it to any of the others for the sake of the story.

Indeed they can do it any character for the sake of the story. Other Trek characters have died and will die. People die. It's just the way it is. Brit's point seems to suggest that you should never become attached to anyone else, because that person might die before you do and you will therefore have to go through the grieving process. It's self defeating. You hurt yourself when you try to avoid being hurt by others by not becoming attached to anyone. Even in fiction, if you avoid reading adventures because a character might die, then you've missed the journey that those characters have had. Fictional characters aren't exactly the same because new stories can be written about them forever...but after a certain point it becomes almost comical and pointless. Characters who are written as mortal should be allowed to die. If people can't enjoy a story with mortal characters, then I'd suggest reading only books about immortal characters, and saving themselves the trouble; problem solved.

 

[joyofvgr]

I disagree. We like to see the good guys win. It's part of fiction. It's what separates fiction from non fiction. It's just a matter of preference. There is no wrong or right.

 

[neogothboy74]

I disagree. We like to see the good guys win. It's part of fiction. It's what separates fiction from non fiction. It's just a matter of preference. There is no wrong or right.

But mortality isn't about the good guys winning or losing. Janeway won. Janeway died. The two don't have anything to do with one another.

 

[Tachyon]

I disagree. We like to see the good guys win. It's part of fiction. It's what separates fiction from non fiction. It's just a matter of preference. There is no wrong or right.

But mortality isn't about the good guys winning or losing. Janeway won. Janeway died. The two don't have anything to do with one another.

That is a pretty good point right there.

 

[Brit]

Double Post - Blame the darn lap top I'm using. The keyboard is all wrong.

 

[Frazzled]

Oh my goodness I've got to the point that I actually dreamt about this last night!! I was standing in a bookshop trying to make up my mind whether to buy FC......

If a real life person dies it's devastating beyond comparison to this but I'm forced to face it and move on. This fictional death upsetting me is really bizarre because I can choose whether to engage with it, believe it, grieve, or campaign by writing to TPTB for a resurrection, stick with fanfic, even write my own to change it etc etc ......

Man I'm confused!! Maybe I'll just read it and be upset for the sake of this head spinning ending!!

 

[Brit]

Even in fiction, if you avoid reading adventures because a character might die, then you've missed the journey that those characters have had. Fictional characters aren't exactly the same because new stories can be written about them forever...but after a certain point it becomes almost comical and pointless. Characters who are written as mortal should be allowed to die. If people can't enjoy a story with mortal characters, then I'd suggest reading only books about immortal characters, and saving themselves the trouble; problem solved.

Some of you have almost got my point,

Somewhere in one of the threads here someone said (and I am paraphrasing) "I was going to read 'Full Circle', but I read the end of it in the book store and it was too sad."

What I am saying is that this is way more common than a lot of you realize. So common in fact that it is probably the majority of readers. Now if they were guaranteed the so called happy ending, then they don't read the end. Trek has until "Before Dishonor" had been considered by readers to be "safe". We could invest in caring about characters without fear of losing them.

In other words for this group any ending has to give the reader the option of believing that the characters are going to live happily ever after. We always had that option before and then it was taken from us and yes we do feel betrayed.

This doesn't in any way discount anyone from wanting books about what you call "real life" or "mortal characters" you have a right to those views, but you all shouldn't discount the readers that do require the "happy ending" because it is a very real need and according to recent studies, the need of HEA may in fact be hot wired into people's brains. (There is a link that I will be glad to provide later - it's six in the morning and I have to go to work in about an hour, and all my links are saved in the computer that my daughter has down for the next couple of days for a new graphics card and power supply.) If you are really interested PM me and I'll find it for you.

What I am saying is, yes there is a large if not majority of readers that do require the option of believing in a happy ending. Their right to it is just as real as anyone else's preference for what they call "real life" fiction.

The real problem is that until recently these people had that option with Trek in all its forms, and even though they love Trek they have been disenfranchised by Pocket Books direction. It doesn't matter how good a book is written, it doesn't matter how great the adventure, because we absolutely "NEED" and I mean that, the option of believing in HEA.

Brit

 

[joyofvgr]

I disagree. We like to see the good guys win. It's part of fiction. It's what separates fiction from non fiction. It's just a matter of preference. There is no wrong or right.

But mortality isn't about the good guys winning or losing. Janeway won. Janeway died. The two don't have anything to do with one another.

That is a pretty good point right there.

That is an excellent point. It's also what makes a good story great in some people's opinion. The hero/heroine wins by sacrificing himself/herself. In fact, it makes for a great ending imo. But this isn't the end of Voyager, is it? It's the middle. So the whole story will continue without the hero/heroine. That's my problem, the story for me has now changed significantly. Like I said that doesn't mean it's a bad story, it's just going in a direction I'm not comfortable with and from reviews I've seen, there are many that read the book that feel the same way.

 

[Frazzled]

That is an excellent point. It's also what makes a good story great in some people's opinion. The hero/heroine wins by sacrificing himself/herself. In fact, it makes for a great ending imo. But this isn't the end of Voyager, is it? It's the middle. So the whole story will continue without the hero/heroine. That's my problem, the story for me has now changed significantly. Like I said that doesn't mean it's a bad story, it's just going in a direction I'm not comfortable with and from reviews I've seen, there are many that read the book that feel the same way.

I think this sums up the way I feel too, after thinking about the points people made about Janeway dying not meaning she didn't win.

Yes it was a glorious death and we see her time and time again throughout the series being prepared to sacrifice her life. So yes the good guys won.

but for me personally she was the main character, who right from the very beginning in the mid nineties I wanted a way home for then a happy life once she got there, so killing her just when she was about to achieve that is never going to sit well with me, and reading future books with a Janeway shaped hole in them is just going to serve to remind me of that.

Yes, maybe I wanted her to have a nice life more than she wanted it for herself, but I'm allowed, she's fictional!

To add to what I said before about relaunches, new crews etc, I've always had this problem I've never liked my fiction changing and moving on. When I'd read Sweet Valley Twins I couldn't stomach Sweet valley high (anyone remember them??!)because one of the twins' best friends had turned into a horrible girl Anne of Green Gables was awful when I read the later books about Grown up Anne, who was perfectly happy, just because her nice little world wasn't the same .... and oh dear me don't get me started on Little Women/Good Wives!! I was traumatised!

 

[Tachyon]

That is an excellent point. It's also what makes a good story great in some people's opinion. The hero/heroine wins by sacrificing himself/herself. In fact, it makes for a great ending imo. But this isn't the end of Voyager, is it? It's the middle. So the whole story will continue without the hero/heroine. That's my problem, the story for me has now changed significantly. Like I said that doesn't mean it's a bad story, it's just going in a direction I'm not comfortable with and from reviews I've seen, there are many that read the book that feel the same way.

That is a very good point as well.

 

[Lynx]

For me it's not about winning or losing either.

It's about a good character written out and killed off for reasons I can't accept. It's also about something important missing in future books which makes them meaningless to read.

I did quit watching Voyager because Kes was missing in the episodes and I was annoyed over the decision to kick her out.

I will quit reading the Voyager relaunch books because Janeway is missing and I'm annoyed over the way she has been deleted from the books.

 

[Galekarens]

Hello, long-time Trek fan, new to BBS. I'm one of those regular fans who WAS going to buy Full Circle, but now I don't think I will. Maybe I'm not tough enough, but I went to the bookstore to buy it, but after skimming the ending (yes I do that, sorry), I decided not to. And I was greatly looking forward to a new Voyager book. I knew Janeway was dead, but I thought I could handle it & read what I read was a well-written book, but I can't. To me, Janeway was the heart of Voyager (even as an Admiral not on board the ship much), and that heart has been taken away. (And to those who may have cheered Janeway's death, well at least you're not so unhappy). I don't expect my Trek books to be nicey nicey - they can have hard times and destruction and all that, but KJ's expulsion is too much for me, at least for now. Maybe I will change my mind. Maybe after Unworthy comes out I might want to revisit this - maybe not. I just don't feel like experiencing such sadness, even if I miss out on some good Voyager stuff (I suppose I could just read the part that KJ is in, we'll see.). And I am rather peeved that a couple of editors could just decide that Janeway is passe' and foist their opinion on a group of fans that might want an important character that they had invested in for years not be just erased (even if she is mentioned later in passing - not the same). So they think they're being daring; I (& I realize I'm only one person) think they are being horrid. PS I'm not anti drama or pathos, just maybe anti "oh let's just do this shocking thing so people will buy more books". Can't believe that was really the best story anyone could come up with. GS

 

[JB2005]

But she hasn't been deleted. They haven't stopped talking about her, and I doubt they will for a long time...

 

[Lynx]

But she hasn't been deleted. They haven't stopped talking about her, and I doubt they will for a long time...

But she's killed off, dead, gone, wasted and will not appear in the future books, therefore I won't read them.

Galekarens wrote:

Hello, long-time Trek fan, new to BBS. I'm one of those regular fans who WAS going to buy Full Circle, but now I don't think I will. Maybe I'm not tough enough, but I went to the bookstore to buy it, but after skimming the ending (yes I do that, sorry), I decided not to. And I was greatly looking forward to a new Voyager book. I knew Janeway was dead, but I thought I could handle it & read what I read was a well-written book, but I can't. To me, Janeway was the heart of Voyager (even as an Admiral not on board the ship much), and that heart has been taken away. (And to those who may have cheered Janeway's death, well at least you're not so unhappy). I don't expect my Trek books to be nicey nicey - they can have hard times and destruction and all that, but KJ's expulsion is too much for me, at least for now. Maybe I will change my mind. Maybe after Unworthy comes out I might want to revisit this - maybe not. I just don't feel like experiencing such sadness, even if I miss out on some good Voyager stuff (I suppose I could just read the part that KJ is in, we'll see.). And I am rather peeved that a couple of editors could just decide that Janeway is passe' and foist their opinion on a group of fans that might want an important character that they had invested in for years not be just erased (even if she is mentioned later in passing - not the same). So they think they're being daring; I (& I realize I'm only one person) think they are being horrid. PS I'm not anti drama or pathos, just maybe anti "oh let's just do this shocking thing so people will buy more books". Can't believe that was really the best story anyone could come up with. GS

I think that you sum it up very good.

 

[bigdaddy]

There is a book where Janeway was killed and I haven't read it?!