What sci fi shows should I follow in the new season?

[Candlelight]

V smells really bad. Space war has been beat to death. It's basically stupid. The only series to make it work are Stargate, which was an adventure/comedy, and Babylon 5, which revealed space war was basically a crazy game, and the rest was bombing raids. And even B5 had problems with it, even though it threw in revolution too. There's no sign V knows any of this.

???

V is entirely set on Earth. What do you mean by 'space war'?

 

[Harvey]

Ummmm......how is Caprica Muslim bashing? I must have missed that part when they were bashing Muslims, which don't exist in their universe.

The closest I can reach is the suicide bomber in the pilot, who has what you might read as vaguely middle eastern features (Avan Jogia, the actor in question, is actually half Irish and half Indian, though in nationality he's Canadian since was born in Vancouver). But such a reading strikes me as a stretch. A more interesting argument could be made about how the series treats homosexuality, although that's only at the speculation point at this stage since the character in question has only appeared once and his orientation wasn't a factor. Wait for the series.

Nonsense about how Hollywood is willing to perpetuate Muslim-bashing even in the face of financial failure is just that. Assuming Battlestar Galactica was a Muslim-bashing show (a ludicrous proposition, but I'll allow it), SyFy's reluctance to renew it for a fifth season certainly goes against this theory. It was likely on the air for as long as it was because it initially had strong ratings, has sold like gangbusters on DVD, and has been consistently lauded by television critics.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

So Caprica is Muslim bashing unless the bomber has blond hair and blue eyes, huh? My nephew has a darker complexion than that Jogia kid does and I assure you he's white from white parents. Daddy is Italian.

 

[stj]

V is space war, because it premises that aliens can plausibly attack another planet across trillions of kilometers. The resources demanded for such a thing will be literally astronomical. But the resources gained will be merely planetary. And the chances that the terrestrial biosphere will be compatible with alien life forms are stunningly miniscule. Plus, history shows the ability of technologically superior forces in limited numbers to control large populations is minimal.

DS9 did not have a successful space war.

If a satsifactory conclusion for Lost's overall "plot," such as it is, does not require coherent motivations for numerous actions and a logical sequence of events, but instead include satisfying fates for the favorite characters and a sensational climax, then it may resolve well. Otherwise, not.

Caprica and Virtuality were virtually identical in theme. But Caprica had religious nut suicide bombers and follows from a 9/11 series. The monotheists are Muslim analogues. The polytheists are religious pluralists, like the US is supposed to be. A darker skin color for the bomber was just to make sure the message got across, but not strictly necessary. It is unlikely this point really escaped anyone, though. Notice it is Caprica that has been greenlit for a year. Anyone who wants to claim that Caprica is somehow good can start by explaining what exactly was supposed to be the meaning of intercutting Joe and son with a gang murder and the Greystones having sex. The shrieking music sure signified it was supposed to be VERY IMPORTANT. It's Caprica that went to series because it had politically correct politics.

Given the low ratings of the last stages of BSG, greenlighting a sequel series is insane. The contrary claim that Caprica is doomed because of profit concerns ignores the fact that Caprica should never have been greenlit in the first place. TV critics have always praised BSG for sexy (a left-handed compliment!) and its supposed political relevance, but have never dared to talk about what is says about contemporary politics. That's because it says nothing that isn't acceptable to TPTB in government, even a government as rabid as Shrub's.

The phrase "politically correct" as commonly used is a Redbaiting term, which tries to equate antiracism with Communism as a covert way of defending racism. It's supposed to indicate the crazy leftwing views imposed by the government against the white majority. The US is predominantly Christian. It's numerous wars against Muslim countries are supported by large portions of the population because of Christian bigotry. Since Muslim hating is the majority position (patriotic love for the US is appalled by this, but facts are facts,) political correctness in the rational sense of views that conform to majority opinion means Muslim bashing.

 

[Harvey]

You ignore the fact that in the final season of Battlestar Galactica, the ratings went up! And the ratings were still higher than the final season of Stargate SG-1 and most of Stargate Atlantis, which also has a spin-off being made in the form of Stargate Universe. You also ignore that Caprica has sold well on DVD, and is being shown on a basic cable network while Virtuality was made for network television. The latter needed higher ratings to stay afloat. The former needs numbers not as high.

The claim that the Colony's polytheistic religion is somehow supposed to represent the United States while the monotheists (also Colonials) are supposed to represent Muslims is silly. You can ignore Ronald D. Moore's comments, since you find him untrustworthy (silly, given his level of openness with fans) that the monotheist vs. polytheist angle is intentional to make us identify more strongly with the antagonists!

Make sure you ignore the critics, too. Since nearly all praise Battlestar Galactica (and many have praised Caprica) they'll have to be quickly dismissed as ideological fools. Better to focus on some cross-cutting in the Caprica pilot, but don't focus too much, you need it to sound stupid.

But most of all, pay close attention to the naysayers, who claim that Caprica is doomed in the ratings from the outset. Maybe. But, then again, almost every review of The X-Files stated with absolute certainty that the series would never last past midseason!

 

[Dorian Thompson]

You're seeing things that aren't there, stj. You are really reaching.

 

[Harvey]

He has a point about V, though. That kind of show either needs a lot of scientific explanations, or needs to be Independence Day--stupid, but fun.

 

[stj]

^^^And you have a point about Virtuality being made for Fox, a broadcast network, much as it pains me to admit it. Fortunately for my ego, I can point to a show visually very much like Virtuality (and if you substitute flashbacks for VR, structurally,) namely, Defying Gravity. And Fox has been very eager to try scifi since X-Files paid off so well. Virtuality wasn't that hard a sell. Your certainty that it was and that explains its failure for greenlight, unlike Caprica's, is not quite justified.

The rest is just wrong, prompted by your blind spot for BSG.

Stargate SG1 had low ratings after ten years, the majority of which previous seasons were simultaneously rerun on SciFi as well as widely syndicated. And its DVDs sold quite well too. SciFi's Stargate Mondays were essentially gravy for years. Pursuit of another such cash cow, more successful than Atlantis, is not insane, just typical Hollywood foolishness. And I see extremely low prospects for Universe.

Polytheism was attested by sticking s on the end of god, but there was perhaps one scene with idols in the entire series. And the Greek modeled religion somehow acquired sacred scriptures, and holy of holies, and mean pastor fathers? Listening to a producer instead of watching the show is just wrong. If it's not dramatized, it's not a major element in the series. Period. The fleet portrayed was religiously plural, secularized in the way the US military is supposed to be. That was not an accident, and the reason for it is obvious.

The critics didn't say anything substantive about BSG for me to respond to. They couldn't, because it didn't say anything. Insisting on taking nothing seriously is getting ridiculous, even for a BSG fan.

I don't expect any of these shows to do very well in the ratings, except Lost. Like BSG, it will rise in ratings because the audience will be thankful to see the end. I think the best bet for good episodes are in FlashForward but I expect it to flop.So I'm not discriminating against Caprica. The DVD will forewarn more people than you think. Sales and rentals that immunize the target audience are a drawback. However, to repeat, I wouldn't be surprised if Caprica isn't renewed regardless of low ratings.

Better to focus on some cross-cutting in the Caprica pilot, but don't focus too much, you need it to sound stupid.

I'm grown up. If you focus too much on the crosscutting between the murder, Adama and son and the Greystones having sex while the dramatic music swells and swells to the climaxes (of various sorts,) and show how it's not just mindless sensationalism, and make me look stupid, I'll understand. Who knows? Maybe the show will drop the (otherwise motiveless) monotheist bombers and I'll fall in love with it once I get it?

So Caprica is Muslim bashing unless the bomber has blond hair and blue eyes, huh?

You're seeing things that aren't there, stj. You are really reaching.

Evidently you're not really looking. Either you don't want to see or you don't want to admit it. Having a reason for the bombing would be the first step towards a rational plot, instead of just covertly pandering to prejudices.

 

[Harvey]

Defying Gravity has already been filmed and financed, and money is coming in from multiple sources rather than just one principal network, Fox. So the financial risk is less. I'll hit the other points later if nobody else responds. My brother had his wisdom teeth pulled today, and I have to keep an eye on him while he's full of drugs.

 

[1001001]

I like both Fringe and Dollhouse.

I just started watching Defying Gravity today. It's marginal, but I'll keep watching to see where it goes.

I have all of Warehouse 13 on TiVo, but haven't watched any yet. Partly because I was waiting for it to be cancelled. Partly because I like squirreling things away for a rainy day.

 

[Harvey]

And you have a point about Virtuality being made for Fox, a broadcast network, much as it pains me to admit it. Fortunately for my ego, I can point to a show visually very much like Virtuality (and if you substitute flashbacks for VR, structurally,) namely, Defying Gravity. And Fox has been very eager to try scifi since X-Files paid off so well. Virtuality wasn't that hard a sell. Your certainty that it was and that explains its failure for greenlight, unlike Caprica's, is not quite justified.

As I indicated, Defying Gravity is a co-production between "the BBC, Fox Television Studios and Omni Film Productions in association with Canadian broadcasters CTV Television Network and SPACE, and German broadcaster ProSieben," to borrow from wikipedia. Based on this strong multinational basis of support, filming was completed before it was even sold to a US Network. And it's being shown on ABC, not Fox.

And Fox has been eager to find a replacement for The X-Files. They gave Chris Carter, creator of The X-Files, three tries, with Millennium (three seasons), The Lone Gunmen (one season), and Harsh Realm (less than a season). It cancelled all of them. It also tried with Joss Whedon and Firefly (cancelled after one half season). Then came Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles, which was cancelled after two short seasons (and partially renewed the second time to avoid embarassment to the franchise when a major motion picture was about to be released). Go back before The X-Files and you'll find Alien Nation, cancelled after one season that did well in the ratings! Fox has been notoriously short with science fiction shows, meddling creatively and quickly cancelling them if they didn't find immediate success (they forget how long it took The X-Files to build an audience). That Virtuality was dumped in that environment is no suprise to me, and I don't see your point.

Stargate SG1 had low ratings after ten years, the majority of which previous seasons were simultaneously rerun on SciFi as well as widely syndicated. And its DVDs sold quite well too. SciFi's Stargate Mondays were essentially gravy for years. Pursuit of another such cash cow, more successful than Atlantis, is not insane, just typical Hollywood foolishness. And I see extremely low prospects for Universe.

(1) Stargate SG-1's ratings declined once Richard Dean Anderson left the series. It had been in syndication sometime before that. Only after two seasons of attempted re-tooling and sagging ratings did SyFy killed it.

(2) Stargate DVDs have been selling poorly recently. This has caused a Fan's Choice Blu-Ray of Atlantis to be cut down to only one disc, and prevented the release of full season sets on Blu-Ray. The Atlantis DVD movie is on hold. There is no word on the third SG-1 DVD movie. If Stargate has been so successful in re-runs, and failed in producing successful first run content, why fund another series when you can fall back on more than 300 episodes that you've already bought and paid for? They're looking for another cash-cow, surely. And the same logic (if you want to call it that) has been applied to Caprica, plain and simple.

Evidently you're not really looking. Either you don't want to see or you don't want to admit it. Having a reason for the bombing would be the first step towards a rational plot, instead of just covertly pandering to prejudices.

Ben has been brainwashed into religious fanatacism. He declares his reasons for becoming a suicide bomber right before he blows himself up. As for why others pushed him in this direction, you wouldn't want a serialized show to blow it's entire narrative load only in the pilot episode, would you? Oh, I know, I know. You hate serialization.

I may have a blind spot in favor of Battlestar Galactica, but you so dramatically have a blind spot in the other direction that it is a little ridiculous. Colonel Tigh as loveable curmudgeon? Bah.

But, hell, looks like are sniping has thorougly derailed yet another thread. If you have a point you'd like to make, stj, bring it into the BSG forum.

EDIT: In that interest, I've started a thread here on the subject of religion in the series.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

DS9 did not have a successful space war.

As successful as any that have been televised. Stargate? Maybe if their villains weren't stupid cardboard props, they'd have a chance. B5? Absurd ending that makes the Shadows and Vorlons look like silly wusses. BSG? I'm still not sure what the frak happened. I do know that they were very wrong to drag National Geographic into it, though.

As for the rest, pshwah. There won't be any zooming and 'splosions in space. That ain't no space war!

The phrase "politically correct" as commonly used is a Redbaiting term, which tries to equate antiracism with Communism as a covert way of defending racism.

"Redbaiting"? Oh I see the problem. You're a time traveller from 1957!

 

[Candlelight]

B5? Absurd ending that makes the Shadows and Vorlons look like silly wusses.

You clearly didn't understand the war then.

 

[stj]

It wasn't me who brought up BSG.

Returning to Caprica, Fox's supposed tendency to deliberately ruin then quickly cancel sf/fantasy series has nothing to do with why Virtuality wasn't greenlit.

The suicide bomber making crazy rant before he blew himself is dramatizing he's crazy, i.e., without reason. Like it or lump it, real life suicide bombers are not just false religion crazies, they are highly political, generally with a long list of specific grievances and rather concrete policies and institutions and parties they support instead of the status quo. In fact, they are often (mostly?) not even religious as such. But when Caprica uses the stereotype of religious crazy with some vague puritannical hate for Our Way of Life who just wants to kill God's children, (instead of granting independence to Tamil Eelam, for instance,) the producers know what they are doing.

And since the bombing kills someone the very same people consider an important recruit, this is indeed specially dumb. The scene where Polly Walker reconverts the surviving girl in the group was ludicrous. But it is true that I generally notice that serialized shows have intolerably perverted their plots to drag out the story.

When you can look at domestic current events and see maniacs foaming at the mouth about "socialism," the implication that Redbaiting is so 1957 is stupid beyond belief. At least in its sincerity. The terror and hate that leads seemingly normal people to advocate attacking North Korea proves conclusively that anticommunism is still an essential element in the conservative mindset. But feel free to argue that conservatives are murderous nitwits who've lost their minds in fantasies from the past.

 

[zekkie]

Virtuality was probably shut down because the caustic presentation of that 'reality show' (plastered over with the Fox logo) within the pilot. Moore totally tralk slapped the network he was hired to do a show for.

But then again, Fox may have not recognized the sarcasm. More likely...the show was not picked up because it lacked the space battles mentioned earlier.

 

[Harvey]

The suicide bomber making crazy rant before he blew himself is dramatizing he's crazy, i.e., without reason. Like it or lump it, real life suicide bombers are not just false religion crazies, they are highly political, generally with a long list of specific grievances and rather concrete policies and institutions and parties they support instead of the status quo. In fact, they are often (mostly?) not even religious as such. But when Caprica uses the stereotype of religious crazy with some vague puritannical hate for Our Way of Life who just wants to kill God's children, (instead of granting independence to Tamil Eelam, for instance,) the producers know what they are doing.

A quick Google search pulls up a July 28 article from CBS News that says the Taliban have been "recruiting" kids 6-15 years old and brainwashing them into becoming suicide bombers. It also pulls up studies that say the average age of suicide bombers has become younger and younger in recent years. A glance at Wikipedia describes a study that concludes, "the overwhelming majority of these [suicide] bombers were motivated by the ideology of Islamist martyrdom." I'm going to go out on a limb and call that religious fundamentalism. That and other studies find that almost all suicide bombers are male and unmarried. Certainly Ben's handlers must have political goals, but it doesn't strike me as unbelievable that he was duped into blowing himself up with rhetoric that would appeal to him.

But I'd like to see the data that supports your position that most suicide bombers aren't religious fundamentalists. Maybe it's because I'm an atheist and find all conception of an afterlife to be coddling nonsense, but I have a hard time believing that a person would kill themselves at such a young age unless they were convinced that an afterlife rewarding their actions existed. Because the political gains of one such attack, which could likely be thwarted, don't seem to be great.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

B5? Absurd ending that makes the Shadows and Vorlons look like silly wusses.

You clearly didn't understand the war then.

Oh I understand just fine. JMS presented the Vorlans and Shadows as the "ultimate baddies" to goose the drama and then turned them into wusses when it was convenient for his agenda of making his big hero, Sheridan, look good. JMS may have contrived some explanation why this "made sense," but it doesn't change the cheapness of the whole enterprise. Strong stories have to be more than just whatever events a writer wants to string together in consecutive order.

I expect writers to try a bit harder than that if they want to impress me. If JMS wants to gain the benefit of having "impressive" antagonists, he has to pay the price down the line when it comes time to defeat the antagonists, by giving Sheridan a surprising and creative way to triumph against the odds, but what JMS came up with was pedestrian and emotionally unconvincing. It was a silly dodge that anyone could have thought up.

But feel free to argue that conservatives are murderous nitwits who've lost their minds in fantasies from the past.

Uh...yeah. That's exactly what's been happening. Whoooole lot of folks out there have their brains stuck in 1957, a spectacle I find utterly comical. But I see no indication that any of that BS has anything to do with Caprica, which is made by far more intelligent folks than the idiots who are currently making spectacles of themselves on Fox News et al.

 

[LeahBoBo]

You could check out Dollhouse.

I tried to like Dollhouse, I really did because of Joss and Eliza. But I could not get into that show. So...I'm sticking with Supernatural. I might try V because I liked the original, but if it doesn't kick ass out of the gate, I'm gone.

 

[DWF]

B5? Absurd ending that makes the Shadows and Vorlons look like silly wusses.

You clearly didn't understand the war then.

Oh I understand just fine. JMS presented the Vorlans and Shadows as the "ultimate baddies" to goose the drama and then turned them into wusses when it was convenient for his agenda of making his big hero, Sheridan, look good. JMS may have contrived some explanation why this "made sense," but it doesn't change the cheapness of the whole enterprise. Strong stories have to be more than just whatever events a writer wants to string together in consecutive order.

I expect writers to try a bit harder than that if they want to impress me. If JMS wants to gain the benefit of having "impressive" antagonists, he has to pay the price down the line when it comes time to defeat the antagonists, by giving Sheridan a surprising and creative way to triumph against the odds, but what JMS came up with was pedestrian and emotionally unconvincing. It was a silly dodge that anyone could have thought up.

No, you clearly didn't understand it at all, the war was about killing your parents growing up and moving on without somebody looking over you.

 

[stj]

But I'd like to see the data that supports your position that most suicide bombers aren't religious fundamentalists.

Yes, everyone knows the kamikaze pilots of WWII were motivated by Islam. Just like the Zealots of Masada. I mentioned Tamil Eelam specifically for good reason. Even Wikipedia estimates 100-200 suicide bombings by the LTTE. And that's a source that people like you would edit for "unreliability." And I know the statistics are unreliable, that why "perhaps?" Such outrage that anyone even dare to question the conventional wisdom on Islamic roots of suicide bombing really exposes the biases you're starting with.

The suicide bombing in Caprica replicated the propaganda image of suicide bombers for a reason. Caprica as a spinoff from BSG carries its political baggage and the monotheists are proleptically genocidal maniacs. And there is a prequel coming to emphasize the genocide. The subway bombing in Caprica was also referenced to "7/7" too.

Uh...yeah. That's exactly what's been happening. Whoooole lot of folks out there have their brains stuck in 1957, a spectacle I find utterly comical. But I see no indication that any of that BS has anything to do with Caprica, which is made by far more intelligent folks than the idiots who are currently making spectacles of themselves on Fox News et al.

As seen above, that's because you're not looking. The news that you think that lots of people have brains stuck in 1957 means your original insult was not only rude but knowingly dishonest.