Spoilers Canon, Continuity, and Pike's Accident

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Temporal Investigations have wildly double standards or they change their standards. Because they were throwing a fit over the very minor changes that the Defiant crew made to the Trouble with Tribbles

They weren't throwing a fit. They were grilling Sisko about the temporal incursion, but in the end, they were satisfied by what they learned and departed without incident. I wouldn't call that "throwing a fit".

Hell, Dulmur and Lucsly weren't even that concerned with that last scene between Sisko and Kirk. Didn't Dulmur even admit that he might have done the same thing himself?

 

[Yistaan]

They weren't throwing a fit. They were grilling Sisko about the temporal incursion, but in the end, they were satisfied by what they learned and departed without incident. I wouldn't call that "throwing a fit".

Hell, Dulmur and Lucsly weren't even that concerned with that last scene between Sisko and Kirk. Didn't Dulmur even admit that he might have done the same thing himself?

Fair enough

 

[The Wormhole]

They weren't throwing a fit. They were grilling Sisko about the temporal incursion, but in the end, they were satisfied by what they learned and departed without incident. I wouldn't call that "throwing a fit".

They did chew him out for O'Brien and Bashir's involvement in the bar fight on K-7

Hell, Dulmur and Lucsly weren't even that concerned with that last scene between Sisko and Kirk. Didn't Dulmur even admit that he might have done the same thing himself?

Dulmur did, and then Lucsly glared at him disapprovingly suggesting he felt otherwise.

 

[Pauln6]

Nothing odd about it, it's just a contrivance to get Kirk and La'an to change into contemporary clothes. Same as every other time travel episode in the other shows always contrive a means to have the characters dress in contemporary outfits.

True but the cold was a contrivance they didn't need. Just saying, we need to fit in, is enough. More likely it's because the writers forget that the outfits are heated because it's taken for granted. Plus it would have been sensible to wear their uniforms under their jackets. Really weird that they threw them away!

 

[Mudd]

One 'continuity error' I noticed in episode 3 was that the uniforms in neither timeline have temperature controls like in That Which Survives. Admittedly, that was technology that wasn't mentioned in The Enemy Within and was stated expressly to have limitations but it's technology that exists now so it's odd that it has been forgotten.

Not at all.

I'm willing to assume that they feel cold in cold places.

It's certainly not a continuity error.

 

[Pauln6]

Not at all.

I'm willing to assume that they feel cold in cold places.

It's certainly not a continuity error.

Lol yes that's why I put it in quotes. In no version of trek do characters wear gloves or hoods to prevent hands and heads from freezing. Maybe this is evidence of 'field effect' protection seen in TAS? At least our heroes stole gloves and hoods to protect them in SNW...

As an aside, recent research suggests that warming forearms improves blood flow to hands so that gloves are not needed as much when manual dexterity is required.

 

[F. King Daniel]

no it wasn't

The events in TOS still happen , they just look different due to altered tech improvements coming sooner and the history dates mentioned happen later.

It is still the Prime Timeline.

That means TOS has been overwritten with SNW which is actually worse "Space Seed" doesn't happen as we saw it, 100% confirmed.

 

[Mudd]

Nothing in this episode overwrites the plot of "Space Seed."

 

[Tallguy]

Someone was nice enough to explain it this way (if you are this wise person, speak up and claim credit - we'll name an effect after you or something): The Eugenics Wars happen some time "after people are watching Star Trek". Warp drive (the space warp) is discovered some time after that. If the stated dates have to change for that to make sense they will. And since it's Star Trek either the writers or the fans will make a concrete explanation for why this happened.

Star Trek is still being Star Trek. Space Seed will still happen. Sam Kirk is still doomed. And Spock is going to start being a jerk to Christine and Christine will get uncharacteristically whiny about it.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Nothing in this episode overwrites the plot of "Space Seed."

It overwrites the exchange about the Eugenics wars in the 90's. And who knows what else? Perhaps that clip in "Ephraim and Dot" is now "Space Seed" was in the revised timeline. Perhaps La'an was there and they clued up to Khan quicker. Just imagine how these tiny things can snowball.

 

[Tallguy]

It overwrites the exchange about the Eugenics wars in the 90's. And who knows what else? Perhaps that clip in "Ephraim and Dot" is now "Space Seed" was in the revised timeline. Perhaps La'an was there and they clued up to Khan quicker. Just imagine how these tiny things can snowball.

If this was "real life" time travel there would be snowballing. Since this is Star Trek time travel the someone will say "2044" instead of "1996". And the sets will be bigger.

Why does no one talk about the Alternate Timeline where Spock's Sehlat is alive? THAT'S when it all came undone!

 

[Deks]

It overwrites the exchange about the Eugenics wars in the 90's. And who knows what else? Perhaps that clip in "Ephraim and Dot" is now "Space Seed" was in the revised timeline. Perhaps La'an was there and they clued up to Khan quicker. Just imagine how these tiny things can snowball.

Yes, but given Trek writers propensity to not pay attention to some details, all they will probably do is just modify 'The Space Seed' to simply amend Spock saying the last world war happened in the the 90-ies to have him say it ended about a few years to a decade before 2063 (and that the Eugenics Wars were part of it, or something to that effect).

Plus of course, bigger/better sets like Tallguy mentioend... or for all we know the SNW Enterprise will not be changed (again) by the time TOS starts (or it might).

But we ARE faced with the small issue of ST: PIC S3 showing TOS Connie design in the fleet museum... so it leaves us with a few options to consider:

A. SNW is a slightly altered timeline along with Discovery (which also ended up in an altered 31st century, and not the prime timeline - that actually opens things up to things not being messed up by the Burn and UFP can freely develop/advance properly/further from the 24th century onward - basically, what we saw in the 31s century should be part of the late 25th or mid/late 26th century - minus the Burn and faster than Warp technologies that do not rely on M/AM and dilithum being used).
.
B. SNW is the prime timeline (along with Disco), and the existing ENT will undergo refits at some point to change it to the TOS version (however brief it may be for before the TMP refit kicks in).

C. SNW is the prime timeline and the ENT won't be changed, which technically doesn't necessarily mess up the canon because like it was mentioned in the episode of SNW that aired on Thursday, some things weren't supposed to happen, but they did... so the Prime Timeline was affected... meaning TOS will be affected (in which ways, we don't know... and if it was, then why would SF bother changing to TOS Connie design which was seen in the Fleet Museum?).

 

[Rahul]

I put it in the "unlikely opinion" thread already, but:

Star Trek absolutely needs to stop putting real-life dates on its fictional history events.

Just use Stardates - that's the whole reason they were invented for - or be very, very vague ("in the 23rd century", "200 years ago"...)

 

[Tallguy]

I don't know why anyone is holding out hope that The Ship will ever look like it did in TOS. For one thing, it already makes no sense because the ship in The Cage already looked like it did in TOS.

To accept that this all "really happened" there would have to be a class of ships that looked like TOS that all got refitted into a SNW configuration for 5-10ish years and then someone would say "No, that's a design cul de sac, let's make all the ships smaller with more confined quarters again."

 

[Tuskin38]

But we ARE faced with the small issue of ST: PIC S3 showing TOS Connie design in the fleet museum... so it leaves us with a few options to consider:

A. SNW is a slightly altered timeline along with Discovery (which also ended up in an altered 31st century, and not the prime timeline - that actually opens things up to things not being messed up by the Burn and UFP can freely develop/advance properly/further from the 24th century onward - basically, what we saw in the 31s century should be part of the late 25th or mid/late 26th century - minus the Burn and faster than Warp technologies that do not rely on M/AM and dilithum being used).
.
B. SNW is the prime timeline (along with Disco), and the existing ENT will undergo refits at some point to change it to the TOS version (however brief it may be for before the TMP refit kicks in).

C. SNW is the prime timeline and the ENT won't be changed, which technically doesn't necessarily mess up the canon because like it was mentioned in the episode of SNW that aired on Thursday, some things weren't supposed to happen, but they did... so the Prime Timeline was affected... meaning TOS will be affected (in which ways, we don't know... and if it was, then why would SF bother changing to TOS Connie design which was seen in the Fleet Museum?).

You forgot a fourth option the changes to the Enterprise in DSC/SNW are just cosmetic, because it's a show created in the 21st century, and the ship is not actually different in universe. The reason we got a TOS-like (it wasn't identical) design in Picard Season 3 was because the art department was run by old school fans.

Paramount isn't forcing artistic consistency between the different shows.

 

[fireproof78]

To accept that this all "really happened" there would have to be a class of ships that looked like TOS that all got refitted into a SNW configuration for 5-10ish years and then someone would say "No, that's a design cul de sac, let's make all the ships smaller with more confined quarters again."

*thinks*

Ok, accepted.

 

[Deks]

You forgot a fourth option the changes to the Enterprise in DSC/SNW are just cosmetic, because it's a show created in the 21st century, and the ship is not actually different in universe. The reason we got a TOS-like (it wasn't identical) design in Picard Season 3 was because the art department was run by old school fans.

Paramount isn't forcing artistic consistency between the different shows.

And yet, ST: ENT did in fact honor TOS by introducing the TOS designed USS Defiant in the Mirror Universe.
We also saw that the USS Defiant in STiscovery S2 was different (on the schematics) than the constitution class from TOS, and when TNG had Scotty show up, in the holodeck, they recreated the TOS Ent bridge.

DS9 also when going to the past in Trials and Tribble-ations, referenced the TOS design (externally and internally).

If you ask me, there IS a pattern to the Prime Universe continuity... and SNW/Disco don't seem to be a part of it.

I get where you're coming from, but artistic style or not, it creates a rather large discontinuity (visually).
It would be like seeing a remake of ST:VOY, TNG or even DS9 today.
Some similarities would be there obviously, but in terms of visual changes and most other stories, they would vastly differ (as such, there would be no way to reconcile it by saying its all in the same universe - unless more temporal changes have been done to the timeline - but then Disco arrived and introduced the Burn, along with the post temporal wars Temporal Accords which prevent changes to the timestream - and that doesn't mesh obviously - since changing TOS to such a large extent would obviously create a big impact).

With inclusion of PIC S3 Fleet Museum TOS Connie, the evidence points to the premise that SNW/Disco could in fact be part of an alternate universe where various events share similarities with the Prime Timeline, but are otherwise different... and this in turn also creates a distinct 31st century with very little tech progression along with the Burn we saw in Disco S3... but otherwise, these events are probably NOT due to occur in the actual Prime Timeline 31st century because they don't seem to be a part of it.

The upcoming crossover between Lower Decks and SNW could say that SNW/Disco is part of the prime timeline, but it could also indicate its not (despite various events being similar/same).

 

[Ovation]

Curt Swan Superman, Jose-Luis Garcia-Lopez Superman, Neil Adams Batman, Marshall Rogers Batman, Gene Nolan Batman…same continuity, different artistic choices.

 

[Rahul]

Christopher Nolan Batman is very much not in continuity with Adam West Batman.

Also, I find the comparison to comicbooks lacking. These are literally "adaptations" (like Sherlock Holmes or James Bond).

Star Trek isn't an interpretation of a source material. It literally is the source itself - the designs by Matt Jeffries, the characters as defined by the actors & the writers at the time, the universe by Roddenberry & co.

 

[Tallguy]

If there's not a joke about how things look then honestly, why are they even doing this?