The Clone Wars and Rebels - A First Timer's Thread
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If it is any consolation, Palpatine didn't play just the Jedi, he played right about everybody. So the Jedi could at least try the excuse that everyone else was doing it.
He played the Senate and the whole Republic not only to give him emergency powers, but to otherwise go along with his every move. He played the Separatists even worse – while ironically turning the Republic into something they would have had a good reason to quit, oppose and fight with, he used them to do it. Gave both sides an army that he would either shut down or use directly against them.
He played the world of Kamino who produced his army, as I'm sure he took over the world and shut their entire enterprise down after the war too.
There were few people showing up during Clone Wars or the prequels who he wasn't playing and using, including Dooku.
The Jedi were but another pawn for him, and regardless of how bad they allowed themselves to be manipulated, they did so while being the only ones who had any chance of putting an end to his whole plot – which is why the Jedi were a threat to him and Order 66 was used for their extermination. I'd like to think that without the Jedi, he would have had an easier time taking over the galaxy, and manipulating them probably took more of his effort. After all, their worst failure – and that makes them look worse to everyone else – is that they failed each other and allowed the Jedi to be destroyed.
Palpatine certainly had his henchmen fighting hard to not let the Jedi discover his Order 66 plan, when it was accidentally activated for Tup, and Fives certainly got Shaak Ti and the Jedi council's attention. Sidious plan was at a true risk there. And it is just so disappointing because from the episodes, the Jedi seemed to be the only ones who had a chance, and shouldn't have let their suspicions and Fives' death go without chasing this further, especially when they had multiple sources of evidence for a sinister plot. They took their principle to focus on the present too literally – they were too much consumed by the war in the moment, and narrow-minded view of doing the right thing only in the very short term, all while having too much patience for the future to reveal itself. Bad move.
Still, if it weren't for Anakin, they may have still won the day on this one. And, on the other hand, Palpatine plan was probably inexact and had a lot of room for chance, as he had cultivated multiple paths to his victory, even when the Jedi missed multiple chances to defeat him.
There may have been potential futures in which the Jedi survived, Palpatine created the Empire, and former separatist worlds align themselves with the Jedi to fight the Empire. The key being – for all their failings, had the Jedi had survived, chances for the Galaxy would have been slightly better.
He played the Senate and the whole Republic not only to give him emergency powers, but to otherwise go along with his every move. He played the Separatists even worse – while ironically turning the Republic into something they would have had a good reason to quit, oppose and fight with, he used them to do it. Gave both sides an army that he would either shut down or use directly against them.
Some separatist worlds who directly worked on his long-term plans were wiped out to hide the witnesses
He played the world of Kamino who produced his army, as I'm sure he took over the world and shut their entire enterprise down after the war too.
There were few people showing up during Clone Wars or the prequels who he wasn't playing and using, including Dooku.
The Jedi were but another pawn for him, and regardless of how bad they allowed themselves to be manipulated, they did so while being the only ones who had any chance of putting an end to his whole plot – which is why the Jedi were a threat to him and Order 66 was used for their extermination. I'd like to think that without the Jedi, he would have had an easier time taking over the galaxy, and manipulating them probably took more of his effort. After all, their worst failure – and that makes them look worse to everyone else – is that they failed each other and allowed the Jedi to be destroyed.
Palpatine certainly had his henchmen fighting hard to not let the Jedi discover his Order 66 plan, when it was accidentally activated for Tup, and Fives certainly got Shaak Ti and the Jedi council's attention. Sidious plan was at a true risk there. And it is just so disappointing because from the episodes, the Jedi seemed to be the only ones who had a chance, and shouldn't have let their suspicions and Fives' death go without chasing this further, especially when they had multiple sources of evidence for a sinister plot. They took their principle to focus on the present too literally – they were too much consumed by the war in the moment, and narrow-minded view of doing the right thing only in the very short term, all while having too much patience for the future to reveal itself. Bad move.
Still, if it weren't for Anakin, they may have still won the day on this one. And, on the other hand, Palpatine plan was probably inexact and had a lot of room for chance, as he had cultivated multiple paths to his victory, even when the Jedi missed multiple chances to defeat him.
Yoda even had a vision of a future in which they, presumably having discovered Order 66, fought the clones and still lost.
There may have been potential futures in which the Jedi survived, Palpatine created the Empire, and former separatist worlds align themselves with the Jedi to fight the Empire. The key being – for all their failings, had the Jedi had survived, chances for the Galaxy would have been slightly better.
Most of them seem to have been removed from the official site, but you can still find uploads of them on youtube if you're willing to put up with Thai subtitles.
Failing that, there's always the peglegged, eyepatch wearing parrot fancier method of obtaining obscure media...
It's often said by fans that 'The Clones Wars' redeemed the prequels. An oversimplification, perhaps, but if nothing else it does provide vital context that was missing from PT.
Perhaps the most significant was the actual reason Anakin's increasing frustration with the Jedi Order in general and the High Council in particular. His outrage at being denied the rank of Master seems a little less petulant when you factor in Ahsoka.
It's not talked about much, but typically the way a Knight attains the rank of Master is by training a Padawan to pass the Trials of Knighthood; passing on what they have learned. So by rights Anakin *should* have been a Master by now since the Council implicitly offered Ahsoka a Knighthood if she returned: "...this has been your great trial!"
From Anakin's POV, the council aren't only being unfair, they're humiliating him for an error THEY made in driving Ahsoka away.
Yeah, the way I look at it is Luke in the OT is a Jedi fan that's only seen the OT, while TLJ Luke is a Jedi fan who's since watched the Clone Wars.
To me, it's one of the more interesting aspects of the whole saga. The Jedi didn't just fall to betrayal and the desolation of war. They fell to hubris. The belief that they were "the good guys" and thus everything they do is by definition the right thing to do.
Lucas has always said that Star Wars is for children, but he doesn't mean it in a derogatory way. (Indeed he's supposed to have asked Filloni to make sure that kids can always watch the new material they're making, and he seems to have taken it to heart.)
He means it's meant to teach children important lessons that they might not get elsewhere. About morality. About ethics. About the nature of power and the ways it can be wielded. That goodness is measured by actions, not intent. That evil can arrive with a kindly smile and offer sweet, flatting words. As the maturity of this show demonstrates, he's never talked down to kids to deliver this message either.
I've always been more of a Star Trek fan than Star Wars, meaning I liked the movies but I wasn't as hardcore as some of the fans out there. Watching this series and the context it is providing to the prequel trilogy, and based on what you just said, I can understand why the hardcore fans love this franchise. It feels like one big morality play, and you're right, it's accessible to everyone and doesn't talk down to it's audience. For a series to go from this thing that feels way too much like the stupidity of Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones to actually providing context for those two movies (Leading up to Sith, which has always been my favorite of the prequel trilogy) and deliver this strong message in a mature and entertaining way is nothing short of extraordinary.
I think that is why Clone Wars and Star Wars has such broad appeal. It is a fable of sorts to identify a lot of moral questions. The Clone Wars does an interesting job at times to explore the morality of approaches to conflict. I think that the overarching theme of good and bad is an interesting set piece because it can take so many different directions.
For me, I think every facet of Star Wars has been additive when it approaches how to manage conflict. The Clone Wars did a decent job of illustrating Anakin's overall dissatisfaction with the Jedi approach. And I agree with another poster that the Jedi fell prey to hubris in terms of them being the sole arbiters of good in the Old Republic.
That's why I think Luke's approach in The Last Jedi, and his disillusionment with the Order makes a lot more sense when viewed within the larger themes of different installments. Luke is like a person who discovers an imperfection in someone he loves, after believing them to be infallible and good all this time. And faced with that sudden failure it brings about so many uncomfortable feelings and fear of further failure that running away seems like the only way.
The legacy of the Jedi is one that requires a lot more learning from the past hubris, and a willingness to delve in to more than black and white thinking. Which is a lesson I think many would benefit from.
The scene where Luke called out the Jedi for being responsible for their own destruction was the best scene in the entire sequel trilogy.
Good Lord The Jedi in this series are so arrogant and blind. Just saw the episode where the Jedi investigate the disappearance of an old Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas and it leads them to discovery Tyranus is actually Count Dooku and the Seperatists were involved in creating the clones and Yoda still wants to cover things up. They didn't listen to Ahsoka, Fives was trying to tell them what is actually happening to the clones, and their investigation into an old Jedi Master is revealing the conspiracy right in front of them and they are worried about public support. If I recall, isn't Public Support starting to go against the war at this point in the series? There was an episode in Season 4 or 5 where the public is like we need to stop using the clones and figure out a way to actually end this war.
I'm going to try to finish season 6 tonight, but watching these episodes and reading the thread that is actually talking about this very topic of the Jedi being blind and arrogant to what was happening right in front of them, my reaction to this episode was the feeling for the first time in my life that Yoda might not be as smart as he thinks he is. Here is think Jedi Master, the icon of Star Wars, abetting in a cover up that will lead to the Jedi's destruction. That's almost like telling someone at a young age there is no Santa Claus. It's kind of a heart breaking experience.
Wow they got Liam Neeson back as Qui Gonn? Cool.
I'm going to try to finish season 6 tonight, but watching these episodes and reading the thread that is actually talking about this very topic of the Jedi being blind and arrogant to what was happening right in front of them, my reaction to this episode was the feeling for the first time in my life that Yoda might not be as smart as he thinks he is. Here is think Jedi Master, the icon of Star Wars, abetting in a cover up that will lead to the Jedi's destruction. That's almost like telling someone at a young age there is no Santa Claus. It's kind of a heart breaking experience.
Wow they got Liam Neeson back as Qui Gonn? Cool.
Man that Yoda trilogy was really really dense in so many great ways. We learn about the Midi-clorians, the cosmic force, and just watching the Journey Yoda takes and how it's all connected to Revenge of the Sith and the original trilogy with Luke was really really well done. This just adds so much more context to everything and I think it actually do make me appreciate the prequel trilogy more than I did. Granted it's been years since I've seen the prequel trilogy, but I do think sometime this year I will rewatch all three movies, and then do a rewatch of the original trilogy and maybe even complete with with the sequel trilogy. I think I really want to see Last Jedi again, now that I have context as to Luke's attitude towards the Jedi, but this series and these last 4 episodes really did an amazing job tying it together.
I am trying to reconcile Order 66 with what Yoda went through though. There was a point where the beings Yoda finds says that he will walk a difficult path that only a few Jedi will also walk, and I wonder if he knew it was coming but there was no way he could stop it. The Sith had already set things in motion that Yoda's destiny was pretty much inevitable and that's why they reveal to him that he must Train Luke to get total victory in Return of the Jedi. I think that's what I liked about these episodes though. Not only did they cover the prequel trilogy, but these episodes solidified Yoda as a true Master and legend and paved the way for Luke's birth and his role in defeating Palpatine.
Some scenes I liked through this Journey:
- Yoda talking to Qui Gonn Jinn
-Ahsoka having a cameo in a scene that was very eerie but gave a different timeline had there been no Clone Wars
-Yoda and Palpatine's duel at the end of Sacrifice and not breaking as Palpatine had hoped
-A strange sense of optimism in the final shot
Dave Filoni is a genius by the way. I don't think I've said that enough in this thread, but man with Clone Wars and Mandalorian, and the fact that he makes wearing a fedora one of the most awesome things ever, this guy really is the true successor to Lucas's legacy.
I am trying to reconcile Order 66 with what Yoda went through though. There was a point where the beings Yoda finds says that he will walk a difficult path that only a few Jedi will also walk, and I wonder if he knew it was coming but there was no way he could stop it. The Sith had already set things in motion that Yoda's destiny was pretty much inevitable and that's why they reveal to him that he must Train Luke to get total victory in Return of the Jedi. I think that's what I liked about these episodes though. Not only did they cover the prequel trilogy, but these episodes solidified Yoda as a true Master and legend and paved the way for Luke's birth and his role in defeating Palpatine.
Some scenes I liked through this Journey:
- Yoda talking to Qui Gonn Jinn
-Ahsoka having a cameo in a scene that was very eerie but gave a different timeline had there been no Clone Wars
-Yoda and Palpatine's duel at the end of Sacrifice and not breaking as Palpatine had hoped
-A strange sense of optimism in the final shot
Dave Filoni is a genius by the way. I don't think I've said that enough in this thread, but man with Clone Wars and Mandalorian, and the fact that he makes wearing a fedora one of the most awesome things ever, this guy really is the true successor to Lucas's legacy.
For me the most tragic part is that on some level, the council pretty much knows they've lost their way but can't see anyway out but to keep pressing forwards. Some (like Obi-Wan) out of a sense of duty, some (like Yoda) fearful of the alternative, and some (like Windu) out of an unshakable faith in the rightness of their cause.
I tend to see the stories of Krell and Barris as representatives of what's happening to the rest of the Order while the Council dithers and frets. Those that embraced their roles as Generals and Commanders are being slowly being consumed by the never ending violence, while those that haven't are being torn apart by confusion and despair.
It's certainly one of the more striking revelations when you appreciate that the Yoda we first met on Dagobah isn't the same Yoda we met in the Hight Council chambers. Through the Clone Wars we get to see in detail the full context of him saying "Wars do not make one great." He's not just making a sweeping philosophical comment, he's mocking himself, or rather who he was. Because at one time, he was indeed a "great" warrior.
Well, it's not the first time...or the last.
By all accounts, Neeson is always very game to revisit Qui-Gon.
Well, it's not the first time...or the last.
By all accounts, Neeson is always very game to revisit Qui-Gon.
I actually forgot he was in the Mortis trilogy and I do try to forget about Rise of Skywalker.
By the way I saw the first episode of season 7 last night (Can you believe it, I made it to Clone Wars that aired last year) and I can understand why a Bad Batch series could work. They were almost like the Star Wars version of The A-Team. I really liked the Macho guy.
I can see why people might be excited about a Bad Batch series. It felt like the first four episodes of Season 7 set that whole thing up, especially with Echo's return.
Now I'm excited that the next episode features the long awaited return of Ahsoka Tano and she's a lot bluer than before.
I've been thinking about this for a while but is Ahsoka the Luke Skywalker of the Prequel/Clone Wars era? They even played Luke's Tatooine theme when she first appeared on the bike. The two characters feel similar.
Now I'm excited that the next episode features the long awaited return of Ahsoka Tano and she's a lot bluer than before.
I've been thinking about this for a while but is Ahsoka the Luke Skywalker of the Prequel/Clone Wars era? They even played Luke's Tatooine theme when she first appeared on the bike. The two characters feel similar.
Ahsoka is the kind of the protagonist of The Clone Wars. The one the audience is suppose to eventually identify with. More so that the likes of Obi-wan and Anakin. She's roughly the age of the intended audience as well, growing up with the audience. She's not the sole protagonist. Far from it. But her story was the one that shifted the fandom a lot on the subject of The Clone Wars.
you basically described Luke and the original trilogy before the prequels came out. We were watching Luke’s story from a guy who didn’t have much of anything but wanted to be a Jedi to being a Jedi Master and redeeming Anakin. I don’t know where Ahsoka’s story will go (other than knowing about Grogu and pointing Mando in the direction of finding the Jedi) but she was the “new” protagonist of the series and people grew up as she did. Maybe she’s nota Jedi Master like Luke, but she became so much more, and both are disenfranchised with the Jedi idea.
I adore the music and musical cues that's in work here.
The "Binary Sunset" leitmotif serves double duty as Luke's theme and the Force's theme. So aside from just Luke walking into a room it's generally used to signify the will of the force at work; the call of destiny, that kind of thing.
For those interested, there's a very good podcast called 'The Soundtrack Show' that's produced by David W. Collins, who when he's not voicing Stormtroopers with Witwer or moderating panels at celebration, happens to work as a sound mixer/editor/designer at Skywalker Sound. He goes into a lot of detail on the soundtracks for a whole bunch of film soundtracks, though mainly focused of Williams's work, and yes, all the Star Wars movies too. He gets into a lot of the nuts and bolts musical theory of how the leitmotifs are constructed and interrelated.
For example, he gets into how the Binary Sunset/Force theme was originally supposed to be Obi-Wan's theme, but was moved to replace the music Williams had originally scored for that scene as Lucas felt it was too introspective and needed to be more hopeful and uplifting. If that piece sounds familiar, Collins did a whole episode just on the 'dies irae' phrase it's based on and how extensively it's used in classical music (and especially by Williams) to symbolise death and doom.
That's a long way of saying that the themes of Star Wars can have very flexible meanings at times, depending on context.
For those interested, there's a very good podcast called 'The Soundtrack Show' that's produced by David W. Collins, who when he's not voicing Stormtroopers with Witwer or moderating panels at celebration, happens to work as a sound mixer/editor/designer at Skywalker Sound. He goes into a lot of detail on the soundtracks for a whole bunch of film soundtracks, though mainly focused of Williams's work, and yes, all the Star Wars movies too. He gets into a lot of the nuts and bolts musical theory of how the leitmotifs are constructed and interrelated.
For example, he gets into how the Binary Sunset/Force theme was originally supposed to be Obi-Wan's theme, but was moved to replace the music Williams had originally scored for that scene as Lucas felt it was too introspective and needed to be more hopeful and uplifting. If that piece sounds familiar, Collins did a whole episode just on the 'dies irae' phrase it's based on and how extensively it's used in classical music (and especially by Williams) to symbolise death and doom.
That's a long way of saying that the themes of Star Wars can have very flexible meanings at times, depending on context.
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As much as I've been talking up Ahsoka lately, I haven't really been enjoying this arc with Trace and her Sister as much. It feels a little CW for my taste, even though I do appreciate seeing the under world of Courasant, and this is leaving Ahsoka in a precarious spot having to go along with their schemes while hiding that she was a Jedi. I guess I kind of expected more from Ahsoka's return. I don't know the timeframe between the end of season 5 and season 7 (Maybe there isn't since it's animated) but I was looking forward to Ahsoka's return and this arc feels kind of paint by numbers. It's not bad, but after the arc in which she left (Which might have been the best arc on the show, maybe next to the Steela Gurerra arc or Mortis Trilogy), I was expecting a bit more.
Yeah, that arc was a little disappointing. I wish they had done the Kashyyk ( I know I spelled that wrong. The Wookiee home planet) arc instead. The final arc will make up for it.
I'm watching part 1 now and it already has. The scenes with Ahsoka and Anakin and Anakin giving her back the lightsabers, and the clones supporting her was the emotional moment I needed for her return.
And then that very same episode probably provided us with an iconic Ahsoka moment where she is “falling with style”, lands and with things blowing up behind her we get that bad ass look with the two lightsabers. You want a reason why I’ve been talking about Ahsoka a lot? That’s a good one.
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