Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x12 - "Through the Valley of Shadows"

[Longinus]

And how is Picard supposed to know that at the time? We as the audience have 25 years of hindsight now.

He doesn't. (And it isn't) But I don't think him telling the crew jeopardises the future, as he know pretty well at that point what's the deal with the time thing was. In fact, he makes sure that others know it too in case something might happen to him.

 

[Lord Garth]

The future is never real. People who are in science-fiction should know that even better than people who watch science-fiction.

Even if that wasn't the case, the Enterprise-D being destroyed in Generations six months later meant there was no way "All Good Things" would ever pass. I knew that even when I was 15.

Also: Generations was written during the 1993 hiatus between the sixth and seventh seasons of TNG. So Ron Moore and Brannon Braga knew what would happen in the movie before they ever wrote "All Good Things". Especially since they happened to write both.

 

[Longinus]

It's the way I looked at it when I first was the show in 1994. It seemed pretty obvious to me. If Picard couldn't figure that out....I guess that's on him.

You can interpret it that way, but that was not the creator intent nor did the characters in the setting see it in that way.

 

[Vger23]

I think it was 'real'. It was just an alternate future. Picard seemed to believe it was real as well. Same with the events of 'Tapestry'.

To me, a "possible future" is as meaningless as it gets. There are infinite possible futures. I could make up a "possible future" right now. That's doesn't bring any significance or gravity to it though. It doesn't make me a prophet. It's only meaningful if it comes true.

So it's a really nice way of saying it's a bullshit future.

Just like Tapestry was a bullshit present, to kick Picard in the complacency.

 

[Vger23]

You can interpret it that way, but that was not the creator intent nor did the characters in the setting see it in that way.

I'm not sure about either of those ascertations. Where is this stated definitively?

Appreciate the permission, btw, thanks!

 

[Longinus]

I'm not sure about either of those ascertations. Where is this stated definitively?

Picard acts like it real, not some mere vision. In the end he even tells others in order to avoid some of the bad things from that future happening.

Appreciate the permission, btw, thanks!

You're welcome.

 

[Longinus]

To me, a "possible future" is as meaningless as it gets. There are infinite possible futures. I could make up a "possible future" right now. That's doesn't bring any significance or gravity to it though. It doesn't make me a prophet. It's only meaningful if it comes true.

So it's a really nice way of saying it's a bullshit future.

Just like Tapestry was a bullshit present, to kick Picard in the complacency.

What I meant it being 'real' that it was not some illusion. Q really did take Picard in such time line, all the people he interacted there were real. That it didn't come to pass, at least in the timeline the show and movies kept following, don't mean it wasn't 'real.' Alternate present from 'Yesterday's Enterprise' was eventually erased, but it doesn't mean it wasn't 'real' when it existed.

 

[Vger23]

Picard acts like it real, not some mere vision. In the end he even tells others in order to avoid some of the bad things from that future happening.


You're welcome.

Well no shit he acts like it is real. The stakes were the continued existence of life in the present. But that was more about the outcome of Q's game...not a belief that he was seeing the immutable future.

Look, I don't have a PhD in temporal mechanics. But, something either IS the future or it is NOT. The minute you start throwing the words "possible" or "alternate" in the mix, you can substitute it for "bullshit"

 

[Vger23]

What I meant it being 'real' that it was not some illusion. Q really did take Picard in such time line, all the people he interacted there were real. That it didn't come to pass, at least in the timeline the show and movies kept following, don't mean it wasn't 'real.' Alternate present from 'Yesterday's Enterprise' was eventually erased, but it doesn't mean it wasn't 'real' when it existed.

But it wasn't an alternate timeline Q presented. It was a "possible future".

 

[fireproof78]

The future is never real. People who are in science-fiction should know that even better than people who watch science-fiction.

Nope. Any time we see a possible future it usually ends with some sort of platitude regarding making the most of the time or something.

 

[Longinus]

Well no shit he acts like it is real. The stakes were the continued existence of life in the present. But that was more about the outcome of Q's game...not a belief that he was seeing the immutable future.

I didn't say 'immutable'.

Look, I don't have a PhD in temporal mechanics. But, something either IS the future or it is NOT. The minute you Star throwing the work "possible" or "alternate" innthe mix, you can substitute it for "bullshit"

It was the future at that moment. Then things changed and it no longer was. Or if we believe in parallel timelines in Kelvinverse style, then it still is one of the many futures which exist concurrently.

 

[fireproof78]

Look, I don't have a PhD in temporal mechanics.

I recommend watching the film "Next" to aid in your education

 

[Longinus]

But it wasn't an alternate timeline Q presented. It was a "possible future".

Same thing. It is just a matter of perspective. Your present is the future to the people of the past and past to the people of the future. Or if we live in a reality where many-worlds interpretation of the quantum mechanics is true, one of possible futures.

 

[Lord Garth]

Nope. Any time we see a possible future it usually ends with some sort of platitude regarding making the most of the time or something.

So many people must've been disappointed in 2012. "What? How are we still alive?! The world should've ended!!!" Meanwhile, my god-sister and I were throwing a party. Mayan-themed.

 

[fireproof78]

So many people must've been disappointed in 2012. "What? How are we still alive?! The world should've ended!!!" Meanwhile, my god-sister and I were throwing a party. Mayan-themed.

Well, Hostess went out of business that year. Maybe that's what the Mayans saw

 

[Vger23]

Same thing. It is just a matter of perspective. Your present is the future to the people of the past and past to the people of the future. Or if we live in a reality where many-worlds interpretation of the quantum mechanics is true, one of possible futures.

Completely disagree.

Alternate timelines are portrayed very specificity in Trek as being traceable to a specific temporal event, like the Nero incursion, the Yeaterday's Enterprise Time Anomoly, or McCoys screw-up in the 1930s. They typically depict a different version of the present

Possible futures are portrayed as just that, without any specific point to say "this is what caused everything to go in this direction".

There's a substantial difference. One is speculative bullshit. The other is not.

 

[Disco!Disco!]

He's no Picard, who gleefully invalidated the 'All Good Things' future timeline by telling his crew everything without any knowledge of whether this would undo the hard-won victory against the temporal anomaly.

All the time-shifting, convincing people, and investigation won Picard the knowledge not to do a particular scan in a certain area, as it will cause an anomaly that will fracture time. That's it.

He might not even have to worry about that as it was a Q continuum test to begin with.

Either way, revealing how to save Deanna, or telling Data to not look like a skunk isn't going to bring the anomaly back.

 

[Vger23]

Now that the thread has been completely derailed (haha), I'll make it very simple:

The minute in ...All Good Things that we see Picard's actions in what Q portrays as the "past" are having no effect on his "present" we know that the possible future is bullshit as well.

This doesn't take me out of the drama of the story at all...but it's just another Q ruse designed to screw with Picard. It's not actual we are seeing (whatever that means). It's just possibilities.

 

[Longinus]

Completely disagree.

Alternate timelines are portrayed very specificity in Trek as being traceable Tom a specific temporal event, like the Nero incursion, the Yeaterday's Enterprise Time nomoly, or McCoys screw-up in the 1930s. They typically depict a different version of the present

Possible futures are portrayed as just that, without any specific point to say "this is what caused everything to go in this direction".

There's a substantial difference. One is speculative bullshit. The other is not.

Well, no. The only difference is the temporal 'location' of the observer. From the perspective of the Enterprise-C crew, the reality they visited was 'a possible future' in the same way than the future Q showed to Picard in AGT was. Doesn't mean either of them wasn't 'real'.

 

[Longinus]

The minute in ...All Good Things that we see Picard's actions in what Q portrays as the "past" are having no effect on his "present" we know that the possible future is bullshit as well.

You mean in the same way than the events in the Kelvin timeline do not affect the 'present' of the prime timeline?