The vast majority I have encountered who use it hate the show. Not all, but yeah, most.
Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x06 - "The Sound of Thunder"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
The vast majority I have encountered who use it hate the show. Not all, but yeah, most.
It's come up before on this site. And I have the same reaction every time. Something like:
Please, I'm begging you, allow people to use the STD acronym in peace. It is not a buzzword indicating some hidden prejudice. It is a perfectly innocuous acronym, and a natural one at that (even though everyone will argue this point).
A
Amaris
Guest
GREAT
* Doug Jones wins this episode hands down. Saru has become one of my favorite characters, and I'm gratified to see his personality becoming more assured, more fearless. He's going to become a hell of a Captain someday (soon). "Do what, Michael?" was especially well done. Again, Saru takes the prize for this one. That transporter scene was just a solid moment. It was also nice to see that he had family, and we get to meet one of them.
GOOD
* Finding out Georgiou was the person who first made contact with Saru was a nice touch.
* We get another good look at the Red Angel. Technology seems more obvious now. I'm really hoping it's not someone we know.
MEH
* Ba'ul chamber scene was kind of okay. It seemed overly complicated for what would end up as simple exposition.
* Michael talking about returning to Vulcan had no real effect on me. It felt like we were there not too long ago.
* The solution to resolving the Ba'ul and Kelpian crisis felt way too undercooked. I also didn't like the dip into more techno-babble solutions.
BLEH
* Not feeling it with Ash as being part of Section 31. His remarks to Pike, in the ship's commissary, about experiencing the pain of war just rings hollow for me. The way the character has been written, well, I'm just not buying what he's selling. I hate to say this, as Shazad Latif seems like a good guy, but his character either bores me or irritates me, but never actually engages any other emotion. It's like I'm supposed to just accept he's all gung-ho Section 31 now, and I don't feel it. Plus, Section 31's paranoia and its mindset can suck vacuum for all I care. I strongly dislike their presence in this show.
Summary:
Doug Jones holds together what feels to me like a weak episode. The idea behind it is good, but I think so little was ultimately done with it on screen that it suffers from a serious case of show don't tell. This one gets a Genuine 6 from me.
* Doug Jones wins this episode hands down. Saru has become one of my favorite characters, and I'm gratified to see his personality becoming more assured, more fearless. He's going to become a hell of a Captain someday (soon). "Do what, Michael?" was especially well done. Again, Saru takes the prize for this one. That transporter scene was just a solid moment. It was also nice to see that he had family, and we get to meet one of them.
GOOD
* Finding out Georgiou was the person who first made contact with Saru was a nice touch.
* We get another good look at the Red Angel. Technology seems more obvious now. I'm really hoping it's not someone we know.
MEH
* Ba'ul chamber scene was kind of okay. It seemed overly complicated for what would end up as simple exposition.
* Michael talking about returning to Vulcan had no real effect on me. It felt like we were there not too long ago.
* The solution to resolving the Ba'ul and Kelpian crisis felt way too undercooked. I also didn't like the dip into more techno-babble solutions.
BLEH
* Not feeling it with Ash as being part of Section 31. His remarks to Pike, in the ship's commissary, about experiencing the pain of war just rings hollow for me. The way the character has been written, well, I'm just not buying what he's selling. I hate to say this, as Shazad Latif seems like a good guy, but his character either bores me or irritates me, but never actually engages any other emotion. It's like I'm supposed to just accept he's all gung-ho Section 31 now, and I don't feel it. Plus, Section 31's paranoia and its mindset can suck vacuum for all I care. I strongly dislike their presence in this show.
Summary:
Doug Jones holds together what feels to me like a weak episode. The idea behind it is good, but I think so little was ultimately done with it on screen that it suffers from a serious case of show don't tell. This one gets a Genuine 6 from me.
Yep, I also downloaded the episode via CBSAA.
I guess you missed the Short Trek episode about Saru.
A
Amaris
Guest
I did miss that one, yes. When I regained CBSAA, they had disappeared. Not long ago, I had a chance to watch a few, and I saw Tilly's, and "Calypso."
Like I told you the last time you decided to publicly call out one of my decisions, maybe there's more to these things than you are personally aware of. Next time, why don't you PM me to talk about it, like it says in my post (the "Comments to PM" part)? That applies to everyone, not just the poster being sanctioned.
Thribs does not watch the show via CBSAA. I know this because I previously talked to him about it and asked him to stop talking about downloading it off a vague location on the internet (not a specific app like CBSAA or Netflix), and that was a followup to another time I asked him to stop talking about downloading it.
If there's a mixup and he does now download it via legal means, he can PM me to tell me that when he's back in a day and the infraction will be reversed. But if one has had a previous infraction for advocating piracy following a prior verbal warning about advocating piracy, you'd think you'd be very careful about mentioning that you downloaded it by legal means now.
Now drop the matter unless you contact me via PM, and do the same from now on if you have an issue with one of my decisions.
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Highlights of this episode for me (I realized after writing these that they come off as sarcastic and I'm being 100% sincere):
1. While Tyler seems to be biding his time until the season arc requires him to do something, I'm enjoying his newfound "single dad, livin' life, just chillen'" swagger.
2. Pike continues to be an example of how to White Guy responsibly.
3. SMG did an amazing job as a supporting part of Saru's story. It wasn't a flashy part but she still did it pitch-perfectly.
Lowlights:
1. Bold choice including Venom.
2. So the Ba'ul don't eat Kelpians? Then why were the Kelpians eaten in the Mirror Universe? That's actually kind of terrifying.
9/10, excellent Trek.
1. While Tyler seems to be biding his time until the season arc requires him to do something, I'm enjoying his newfound "single dad, livin' life, just chillen'" swagger.
2. Pike continues to be an example of how to White Guy responsibly.
3. SMG did an amazing job as a supporting part of Saru's story. It wasn't a flashy part but she still did it pitch-perfectly.
Lowlights:
1. Bold choice including Venom.
2. So the Ba'ul don't eat Kelpians? Then why were the Kelpians eaten in the Mirror Universe? That's actually kind of terrifying.
9/10, excellent Trek.
I may have a different evaluation in a few days or so but as of this moment: that was one of the three best episodes in the entire series so far. A slam dunk. It had both a TOS feel of wonder and exploration of the unknown and throwing the Prime Directive to the wind to save a culture from exploitation and destruction by a technologically-sophisticated overseer. The Ba'ul communicating with Pike and the Discovery also reminded me of Nagilum speaking with Picard and the Enterprise-D crew in TNG so that gave this episode a Next Gen-era flavor in spots.
Doug Jones once again slams it out of the ballpark. Everyone was good, and even Tilly was toned down a little and kept from getting too exuberant at the expense of the feel and atmosphere of the scenes she was in. A solid 10.
Doug Jones once again slams it out of the ballpark. Everyone was good, and even Tilly was toned down a little and kept from getting too exuberant at the expense of the feel and atmosphere of the scenes she was in. A solid 10.
A
Amaris
Guest
after all the handwringing about general order one in “new eden”, i found this whole thing a little hand wavy... which discovery does very well (see: culber’s resurrection all the way back to last week). there are always little things like this in discovery that trip me up, like the show is so carefully designed, shot, and acted but the writing is slapdash. there’s always a disconnect between the writing and the execution. it’s akin to late-moffat doctor who, all set up and no coherent climax.
that said... i loved this episode. the series isn’t perfect (few are) but it’s leaps and bounds improved from the first season and so much fun. there’s joy in seeing these characters solve problems and that’s been season 2’s jam.
also i liked the dementors... i mean ba’ul. cool addition to the universe.
that said... i loved this episode. the series isn’t perfect (few are) but it’s leaps and bounds improved from the first season and so much fun. there’s joy in seeing these characters solve problems and that’s been season 2’s jam.
also i liked the dementors... i mean ba’ul. cool addition to the universe.
I'll continue avoiding PMs unless absolutely necessary, as I said I would last time, but in the spirit of friendliness, I'll edit my post so it isn't a reply to you nor the Thribs infraction.
----
And, also, to stay on topic, I really liked seeing Airiam doing some android stuff in this episode. That Sphere had a heck of a lot of information if it had population figures from a random pre-warp planet over thousands of years. It must have downloaded from other Spheres or other sources of information over the millennia.
I also enjoy the fact that the DSC transporters take longer to dematerialize and rematerialize subjects than the transporters of the TNG/DS9/VOY era and are about on par with TOS transporter technology. They work at about the same speed as the ENT transporter from a century earlier and even the resonator array at the back of the Discovery transporter pad makes it look a little like the one aboard the NX-01.
Speaking of transporters, I found it distracting just how obvious it was that the interior of the Ba'ul ship was a redress of the Discovery transporter room. The support struts around the transporter platform-slash-black pool were especially obvious.
I dunno. For a show that supposedly costs Game of Thrones level money, I'm surprised at how much recycling of sets there's been.
I dunno. For a show that supposedly costs Game of Thrones level money, I'm surprised at how much recycling of sets there's been.
I really enjoyed this one. Saru once again demonstrates why he is one of the most interesting and well-developed characters on the show. The only thing sabotaging this episode from earning a perfect score from me was the idiot ball that suddenly spawned to be tossed around by everyone in the final third. I gave this one a 9/10.
There's a lot to unpack in everything that unfolded tonight. While most of the reveals for the nature of Saru's people weren't entirely unexpected by this point, the exact details were fascinating (and we still have a lot of things left blank). At one point I almost began to wonder if we were going to find the Ba'ul was some AI the matured Kelpiens devised to keep their own nature pacified; something they built to ensure a "perfect world" to the best of their ability. Side note: this episode was mildly irritating in the constant insistence to demonstrate again that the show's writers don't understand what "evolution" is. The post-Vahar'ai Kelpians are not "evolved", as they are the same specimen (if you'll excuse the term), they are simply matured. Even 'metamorphosed' might be a more apt term. "Getting evolution wrong" is a long-standing Star Trek trope I had hoped we could finally move beyond, but as also demonstrated in Tilly's Short Trek, I can see they don't even realize the depth of their misunderstanding. It's just used as a word that sounds science-y and means "better". Ah well, at least here it's mostly just a semantic quibble more than the absolute gibberish in "Runaway".
The scene with Culber was moving, and I agree that it was peculiar to see Stamets missing the giant flashing lights of discomfort despite his relief in having his love returned. Culber couldn't have been telegraphing his existential disassociation more clearly than if he'd outright stated it. I hope we see more of his soul-searching, but then I was looking forward to Stamets' too after his interaction with Tilly in the season opener, but now that Culber's back that line of character development has been shot down, so I won't get too attached to the possibility (in some ways, the season's pace is hamstringing good emotional payoffs by rushing through too quickly). Likewise, the relationship between Saru and Burnham is a major strength again, and her coming to his rescue more than once is heartwarming to watch. I was surprised when she came to his side on the bridge and actually bailed him out against Captain Pike rather than attempt to get him to seek help, which leads me to one of the two threads that felt forced and unexamined in the episode: Saru's changed personality and the solution to the Ba'ul's "balance".
Saru, now free of his "fear", has become irrational, angry, and impulsive. He is justified in his resentment at being lied to and being subject to what he believes is an oppressive life on Kaminar. But the Saru we know would never have been so self-righteous and disrespectful toward Captain Pike and his (Pike's) very reasonable attempts to deal with the situation they knew very little about. This is not an unreasonable reaction for Saru, but the reaction by the crew appeared to be leading to Saru needing a psychological and emotional evaluation (and, I suspect, quite a bit of therapy as he adapts to his new hormonal balance). Instead, they support his request to beam down to the planet despite him being emotionally and rationally compromised, and worse, they beam him to the one place he is sure to be recognized, jeopardizing what is meant to be a semi-covert information-gathering mission. And, as surely as that was an unwise choice, the one and only person he meets is his sister. These are choices that could have been made on purpose for various reasons, but it felt like no one considered it at all, despite it coming across on screen as an obvious problem.
As for the other issue I had, the Ba'ul were presented as very cautious and pragmatic. They are scary and ominous, to be sure, but they acted along with their intentions and motivations as stated. The moment Saru sacrificed himself to their demands, they immediately pulled back. They were honest in their desire only to maintain the balance and presumably perform damage control. They had no interest in starting a fight even though the implication is that they had every ability to be at least an equal match for Discovery. Likewise, their entire system of balance with the Kelpiens is minimal and non-invasive; they allow the Kelpiens to live an idyllic life free of interference and, as Saru admits, in complete lack of want or rampant disease and war. The Ba'ul only harvest Kelpiens at the moment they become an imminent threat to that balance, and we're given enough facts to know this is likely true as given (and, importantly, nothing to the contrary). This "balance" is a situation which surely needs to be resolved, as it is still an artificial and involuntary state the living Kelpiens are not party to (I have my curiosity about the possible situation(s) that led to this balance), and is therefore something that the Federation is going to see as unjust and oppressive. But it is also not punitive or without reason, and there is no immediate threat except that posed by Saru himself.
Because of this, it becomes extremely difficult to see why everyone on the ship, upon learning of the near-disaster in the planet's history, immediately believes the best solution is a sudden and irreversible complete overhaul of the entire planet's social and biological structure. Saru repeatedly states that the matured Kelpiens can "rise above their nature" but so far he has demonstrated the complete opposite! Maybe if we'd had a few episodes between his Vahar'ai and this, where he came to terms with his new situation and his volatility had died down this would be easier to swallow, but as it is the episode undermines any credibility in his claim, and the fact that no one questions it is baffling. It was especially surprising to see so little push-back from Captain Pike, as usually he's the voice of Federation Reason this season in these charged situations, but I suspect he isn't given any objections to raise when the crew suggests assisting what is more likely than not a prelude to violent revolution or open war because there aren't any solid, rational answers to that objection. Meanwhile, Burnham is shocked when the Ba'ul very pragmatically reveal they will, as promised, seek to contain the problem through genocide. This reaction sadly makes her look impulsive as well, since one of the only things they even know about the history of the world is that the Ba'ul have very good reason to have "Never Again" as their motto, and the one thing they've built their entire system to prevent has just occurred at a magnitude they probably hoped would never be possible. How anyone as intelligent as Burnham could be surprised that the Ba'ul response to a world-ending threat is to end it first, I cannot fathom.
Ultimately the Ba'ul are deeply in the wrong, being content with a status-quo that keeps them in power and safety rather than finding a harmonious solution with their Kelpien co-inhabitants, but the episode never justifies to me that the only alternative is transforming an entire species of pacifists overnight into a rage-induced uprising with no preparation or plan, especially in light of both the history and the personal examples we are shown of the situation being quite likely as bad as it sounds. Lots of people are going to die.
In the end, I was a bit torn on the somewhat-but-not-quite Deus Ex Machina of the Red Angel saving the day. It's appropriate and justified in the ongoing story, and raises a lot of tantalizing new questions (and answers a few minor ones) about the season's plot, but it was a little bit of a pat solution that undermined the moment by removing the immediate consequences of Our Heroes acting without due consideration. Assuming there will be further consequences a lot of this episode may look better in retrospect, though it'll always be weakened slightly by the lack of introspection in the story itself by its characters, and it didn't drastically affect my ability to enjoy the rest (it's not the first time these characters' impulsivity leads them to make mistakes that go unrecognized at the time). None of these were fatal flaws, but they did sometimes feel like we're meant to engage on the allegorical level rather than the literal as presented if we're to make sense of the outrage and subsequent superficial solutions.
All of that said, I really felt like this episode went somewhere great, and made some wonderful strides at doing a lot all at once (for the show, for Saru as a character, for the worldbuilding, and for the season's plot) in a way that mostly felt organic with what we knew.
I'm still curious to know more about the Ba'ul, what they are, and how they function. I too felt a resemblance to Armus, and while I hope there's no connection, I can't rule it out.
As for Saru, I agree (surprising no one who read my rather long post this far), but I can't side with the Ba'ul on anything but their own fear of the Kelpiens (we have cold numbers but lack context of the conflict(s) involved in their history). The lack of recognition that the Ba'ul are justifiably afraid was strange, and I wish the crew had at least considered that there was a profound lack of urgency in what was going on. The system had been in place for two millennia and was in a peaceful equilibrium. That's a great opportunity to open up a diplomatic solution with the Ba'ul and work out some peaceful transition, especially since Starfleet had a means of pressing the issue and forcing the Ba'ul to sit at the table. But it's never even suggested as an option.
There's a lot to unpack in everything that unfolded tonight. While most of the reveals for the nature of Saru's people weren't entirely unexpected by this point, the exact details were fascinating (and we still have a lot of things left blank). At one point I almost began to wonder if we were going to find the Ba'ul was some AI the matured Kelpiens devised to keep their own nature pacified; something they built to ensure a "perfect world" to the best of their ability. Side note: this episode was mildly irritating in the constant insistence to demonstrate again that the show's writers don't understand what "evolution" is. The post-Vahar'ai Kelpians are not "evolved", as they are the same specimen (if you'll excuse the term), they are simply matured. Even 'metamorphosed' might be a more apt term. "Getting evolution wrong" is a long-standing Star Trek trope I had hoped we could finally move beyond, but as also demonstrated in Tilly's Short Trek, I can see they don't even realize the depth of their misunderstanding. It's just used as a word that sounds science-y and means "better". Ah well, at least here it's mostly just a semantic quibble more than the absolute gibberish in "Runaway".
The scene with Culber was moving, and I agree that it was peculiar to see Stamets missing the giant flashing lights of discomfort despite his relief in having his love returned. Culber couldn't have been telegraphing his existential disassociation more clearly than if he'd outright stated it. I hope we see more of his soul-searching, but then I was looking forward to Stamets' too after his interaction with Tilly in the season opener, but now that Culber's back that line of character development has been shot down, so I won't get too attached to the possibility (in some ways, the season's pace is hamstringing good emotional payoffs by rushing through too quickly). Likewise, the relationship between Saru and Burnham is a major strength again, and her coming to his rescue more than once is heartwarming to watch. I was surprised when she came to his side on the bridge and actually bailed him out against Captain Pike rather than attempt to get him to seek help, which leads me to one of the two threads that felt forced and unexamined in the episode: Saru's changed personality and the solution to the Ba'ul's "balance".
Saru, now free of his "fear", has become irrational, angry, and impulsive. He is justified in his resentment at being lied to and being subject to what he believes is an oppressive life on Kaminar. But the Saru we know would never have been so self-righteous and disrespectful toward Captain Pike and his (Pike's) very reasonable attempts to deal with the situation they knew very little about. This is not an unreasonable reaction for Saru, but the reaction by the crew appeared to be leading to Saru needing a psychological and emotional evaluation (and, I suspect, quite a bit of therapy as he adapts to his new hormonal balance). Instead, they support his request to beam down to the planet despite him being emotionally and rationally compromised, and worse, they beam him to the one place he is sure to be recognized, jeopardizing what is meant to be a semi-covert information-gathering mission. And, as surely as that was an unwise choice, the one and only person he meets is his sister. These are choices that could have been made on purpose for various reasons, but it felt like no one considered it at all, despite it coming across on screen as an obvious problem.
As for the other issue I had, the Ba'ul were presented as very cautious and pragmatic. They are scary and ominous, to be sure, but they acted along with their intentions and motivations as stated. The moment Saru sacrificed himself to their demands, they immediately pulled back. They were honest in their desire only to maintain the balance and presumably perform damage control. They had no interest in starting a fight even though the implication is that they had every ability to be at least an equal match for Discovery. Likewise, their entire system of balance with the Kelpiens is minimal and non-invasive; they allow the Kelpiens to live an idyllic life free of interference and, as Saru admits, in complete lack of want or rampant disease and war. The Ba'ul only harvest Kelpiens at the moment they become an imminent threat to that balance, and we're given enough facts to know this is likely true as given (and, importantly, nothing to the contrary). This "balance" is a situation which surely needs to be resolved, as it is still an artificial and involuntary state the living Kelpiens are not party to (I have my curiosity about the possible situation(s) that led to this balance), and is therefore something that the Federation is going to see as unjust and oppressive. But it is also not punitive or without reason, and there is no immediate threat except that posed by Saru himself.
Because of this, it becomes extremely difficult to see why everyone on the ship, upon learning of the near-disaster in the planet's history, immediately believes the best solution is a sudden and irreversible complete overhaul of the entire planet's social and biological structure. Saru repeatedly states that the matured Kelpiens can "rise above their nature" but so far he has demonstrated the complete opposite! Maybe if we'd had a few episodes between his Vahar'ai and this, where he came to terms with his new situation and his volatility had died down this would be easier to swallow, but as it is the episode undermines any credibility in his claim, and the fact that no one questions it is baffling. It was especially surprising to see so little push-back from Captain Pike, as usually he's the voice of Federation Reason this season in these charged situations, but I suspect he isn't given any objections to raise when the crew suggests assisting what is more likely than not a prelude to violent revolution or open war because there aren't any solid, rational answers to that objection. Meanwhile, Burnham is shocked when the Ba'ul very pragmatically reveal they will, as promised, seek to contain the problem through genocide. This reaction sadly makes her look impulsive as well, since one of the only things they even know about the history of the world is that the Ba'ul have very good reason to have "Never Again" as their motto, and the one thing they've built their entire system to prevent has just occurred at a magnitude they probably hoped would never be possible. How anyone as intelligent as Burnham could be surprised that the Ba'ul response to a world-ending threat is to end it first, I cannot fathom.
Ultimately the Ba'ul are deeply in the wrong, being content with a status-quo that keeps them in power and safety rather than finding a harmonious solution with their Kelpien co-inhabitants, but the episode never justifies to me that the only alternative is transforming an entire species of pacifists overnight into a rage-induced uprising with no preparation or plan, especially in light of both the history and the personal examples we are shown of the situation being quite likely as bad as it sounds. Lots of people are going to die.
In the end, I was a bit torn on the somewhat-but-not-quite Deus Ex Machina of the Red Angel saving the day. It's appropriate and justified in the ongoing story, and raises a lot of tantalizing new questions (and answers a few minor ones) about the season's plot, but it was a little bit of a pat solution that undermined the moment by removing the immediate consequences of Our Heroes acting without due consideration. Assuming there will be further consequences a lot of this episode may look better in retrospect, though it'll always be weakened slightly by the lack of introspection in the story itself by its characters, and it didn't drastically affect my ability to enjoy the rest (it's not the first time these characters' impulsivity leads them to make mistakes that go unrecognized at the time). None of these were fatal flaws, but they did sometimes feel like we're meant to engage on the allegorical level rather than the literal as presented if we're to make sense of the outrage and subsequent superficial solutions.
All of that said, I really felt like this episode went somewhere great, and made some wonderful strides at doing a lot all at once (for the show, for Saru as a character, for the worldbuilding, and for the season's plot) in a way that mostly felt organic with what we knew.
I'm still curious to know more about the Ba'ul, what they are, and how they function. I too felt a resemblance to Armus, and while I hope there's no connection, I can't rule it out.
I agree. That scene just needing him questioning it and then deferring to Burnham, but without that it felt like he was essentially absent which doesn't ring true with his characterization this season.
With the detail we finally saw tonight, my first reaction was that the Red Angel resembles Emperor Georgiou in her shape-shifting disguise. I really hope they aren't going to reveal this "Saviour of the Galaxy" is a Section 31 operative jumping through time and space playing cat-and-mouse with Starfleet crews to lead them where she wants them to intervene.
As for Saru, I agree (surprising no one who read my rather long post this far), but I can't side with the Ba'ul on anything but their own fear of the Kelpiens (we have cold numbers but lack context of the conflict(s) involved in their history). The lack of recognition that the Ba'ul are justifiably afraid was strange, and I wish the crew had at least considered that there was a profound lack of urgency in what was going on. The system had been in place for two millennia and was in a peaceful equilibrium. That's a great opportunity to open up a diplomatic solution with the Ba'ul and work out some peaceful transition, especially since Starfleet had a means of pressing the issue and forcing the Ba'ul to sit at the table. But it's never even suggested as an option.
It seems very unlikely the situation will improve without causing a lot of Kelpien and Ba'ul deaths before (and if) it improves, which is basically a worst-case scenario in my mind. I sympathize with Saru pushing for this solution, both because of the immense amount of personal injustice as well as his duty to his people, but his irrational impulsivity doesn't explain the acquiescence of the crew.
Nah, it's:
Jean Luc Picard - He's gonna save the Universe and Romulus too, and THEN become "Future Guy" 
I'm betting that the red angel is gonna turn out to be Burnahm. It'll probably involve the data that the Sphere thing from last episode and something to do with Spore technology. I also betting it involves time travel tech given in one of the mini episodes we know Discovery ends up hundreds of years in the future. That would also explain why it is we never heard about her or the red angel in any other series.
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