Klingon change for season 2?

[Rahul]

We tend to forget that the Klingons depicted on screen are a tiny percentage of an actual race. Not sure why congruence of all cultural ideals should be expected to be adhered to by every member.

Thing is, that tiny percentage of the overall population of the Klingons we saw were all their leaders and a notable group of Captans and commanders. So while we of course don't have a good overview how the vast majority of Klingon population dresses, we know how their leaders and notable character dresses and all "regular" people we saw followed that trend. So while it may only be a tiny percentage of the overall population, they very much stand in for the klingon "ideal" way better than theri actual raw numbers account for.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Thing is, that tiny percentage of the overall population of the Klingons we saw were all their leaders and a notable group of Captans and commanders. So while we of course don't have a good overview how the vast majority of Klingon population dresses, we know how their leaders and notable character dresses and all "regular" people we saw followed that trend. So while it may only be a tiny percentage of the overall population, they very much stand in for the klingon "ideal" way better than theri actual raw numbers account for.

That argument isn't nearly as good as you think it is. Fashions like this historically often have a very high correlation to class, with the exceptions primarily being less important people who are allowed to exist in the vicinity of the important people. The fact that we've seen primarily just the leaders and the people who work directly with them could just as easily be seen as further indication that 'normal' Klingons may look very different.

 

[fireproof78]

Thing is, that tiny percentage of the overall population of the Klingons we saw were all their leaders and a notable group of Captans and commanders. So while we of course don't have a good overview how the vast majority of Klingon population dresses, we know how their leaders and notable character dresses and all "regular" people we saw followed that trend. So while it may only be a tiny percentage of the overall population, they very much stand in for the klingon "ideal" way better than theri actual raw numbers account for.

If we don't know what the vast majority looks like then we cannot project an "ideal" from that information. That would be like extrapolating human fashion from the United States Military branches.

 

[Kor]

Throughout Trek we have also seen Klingon civilians, diplomats, scientists, servants, restaurateurs, merchants, doctors, lawyers, etc. And they generally tended to have the same type of physical features that were prevailing at that time for Klingon soldiers/warriors.

Kor

 

[Rahul]

That argument isn't nearly as good as you think it is. Fashions like this historically often have a very high correlation to class, with the exceptions primarily being less important people who are allowed to exist in the vicinity of the important people. The fact that we've seen primarily just the leaders and the people who work directly with them could just as easily be seen as further indication that 'normal' Klingons may look very different.

As @Kor already pointed out: We have seen all their leaders and a good cross-section through their entire military rank structure. They all had a pretty distinctive style. Also, EVERY civilian we ever saw on screen, wether on the streets of the homeworld, or on the few colonies we saw, had the exact same style as their leaders. Chances are - this is actually how they dress.

 

[Rahul]

That being said: Personally I'm a big fan of variety in a species. Not necessary biological, but in "fashion" and style. One thing that is still so great about "The undiscovered country" is that basically no two klingons ever looked alike. Yet every single one of them looked distinctively "klingon". That's great design work!

And no, Disco's bald klingons don't count as "variety", since they were all bald. Thus, all of them felt super uniform again, just now a differenty type of mono-style species.

So imagine my positive surprise from the season 2 trailer! Because not only saw we a traditionally haired klingon - in this scenes three klingons were visible - the one "traditional" white, long haired guy, L'Rell (with glorious 80s' hair), and an unnamed background klingon (with a tied up Samurai hairstyle). That's the variety in style I want to see!

 

[fireproof78]

As @Kor already pointed out: We have seen all their leaders and a good cross-section through their entire military rank structure. They all had a pretty distinctive style. Also, EVERY civilian we ever saw on screen, wether on the streets of the homeworld, or on the few colonies we saw, had the exact same style as their leaders. Chances are - this is actually how they dress.

The larger point is that we can't have seen every variety. So, why not have more variety, from baldness to fashion, to piercings, and the like? It's silly to me to declare something "not Klingon" just because it hasn't been seen before.

 

[Kor]

The next Klingon that appears on STDsc should have a pink mohawk and be riding a unicorn. I promise not to declare it "not Klingon."

Kor

 

[XCV330]

The larger point is that we can't have seen every variety. So, why not have more variety, from baldness to fashion, to piercings, and the like? It's silly to me to declare something "not Klingon" just because it hasn't been seen before.

I like Discovery but I'll always have issues with Klingons because the look was tampered so much they essentially became nearly another species than the ones shown before. Different culture, different style, different bodies, different skulls, quadruple nostrils, double gonads, everyone bald, etc. This isn't a species now that could crossbreed and make a hybrid like B'Elanna, not even a mule version.

Klingons were supposed to be just enough like us that we could identify with them, see the more extreme aspects (not always for bad, but usually) in ourselves. Now they're just incomprehensible aliens. Could anyone have really idenfied with Worf if he'd been given the Voq or Tkoofma makeup?

Fuller could have made a new species but in his arrogance he just went and toyed about with other people's work. I know that Klingons have had many looks over the years, but in a series that was going to be so focused on Klingons, why didnt he just build and unify what was already there? Now it's the new showrunners job to find a way to put the shit back in the horse.

 

[fireproof78]

I like Discovery but I'll always have issues with Klingons because the look was tampered so much they essentially became nearly another species than the ones shown before. Different culture, different style, different bodies, different skulls, quadruple nostrils, double gonads, everyone bald, etc. This isn't a species now that could crossbreed and make a hybrid like B'Elanna, not even a mule version.

Klingons were supposed to be just enough like us that we could identify with them, see the more extreme aspects (not always for bad, but usually) in ourselves. Now they're just incomprehensible aliens.

with due respect, Klingons having double of anatomy is not new to the lore at all. Secondly, we don't know that "everyone is bald" because that clearly isn't the case now. It's an expansion upon what was previously known about the Klingons.

The fact that there is an expectation of a single Klingon culture is the exact reason why I'm glad for the Discovery Klingons. And, to answer the absurd question-yes I would recognize Worf.

 

[Rahul]

The larger point is that we can't have seen every variety. So, why not have more variety, from baldness to fashion, to piercings, and the like? It's silly to me to declare something "not Klingon" just because it hasn't been seen before.

I guess you missed the point. I want variety. From different hairstyles (the uniform barbarian/biker-gang hair is also ridiculous if everyone has it), no hair at all, piercings, markings etc.

My grievance with the DIS (season 1!) look is entirely that they replaced one monotonous look with another, inferiour monotonous look.

 

[fireproof78]

I guess you missed the point. I want variety. From different hairstyles (the uniform barbarian/biker-gang hair is also ridiculous if everyone has it), no hair at all, piercings, markings etc.

My grievance with the DIS (season 1!) look is entirely that they replaced one monotonous look with another, inferiour monotonous look.

No, I got your point. I just don't see Season 1 as a monotonous look when taking in the with the whole of how Klingons have been presented.

 

[Rahul]

No, I got your point. I just don't see Season 1 as a monotonous look when taking in the with the whole of how Klingons have been presented.

I mean, yeah, they had a lot of variety in the costumes. Also, from the house leaders there were some visible that actually really looked kinda' different. Although that also came down pretty much to jewelry, or the one guy who had his face full of what looked like tribalistic scars.

But then on the other hand, every single klingon we ever encountered, wether it be their bridge crews, or (especially!) all the mooks that got gunned down in a hallway: They all looked exactly identical

Their face was the same. Every. Single. Time. Like an enemy class in a video game, where every single one looked the same. Sure, in "classic" Trek the background klingons always had a very similar costume as well. But at least their human faces made each individual look a little bit different than the next. Wheras with the full-on latex head-mask that DIS used for the Klingons, every single klingon head was shaped from the exact same mold. And didn't even hair to give a tiny, teeny little bit of individuality to the different klingons. Sure, some notable Klingons looked different, and ad a different skin color. But apart from their leaders, the race looked pretty much like they copy-pasted the same individual over and over for the entire race.

 

[fireproof78]

I mean, yeah, they had a lot of variety in the costumes. Also, from the house leaders there were some visible that actually really looked kinda' different. Although that also came down pretty much to jewelry, or the one guy who had his face full of what looked like tribalistic scars.

But then on the other hand, every single klingon we ever encountered, wether it be their bridge crews, or (especially!) all the mooks that got gunned down in a hallway: They all looked exactly identical

Their face was the same. Every. Single. Time. Like an enemy class in a video game, where every single one looked the same. Sure, in "classic" Trek the background klingons always had a very similar costume as well. But at least their human faces made each individual look a little bit different than the next. Wheras with the full-on latex head-mask that DIS used for the Klingons, every single klingon head was shaped from the exact same mold. And didn't even hair to give a tiny, teeny little bit of individuality to the different klingons. Sure, some notable Klingons looked different, and ad a different skin color. But apart from their leaders, the race looked pretty much like they copy-pasted the same individual over and over for the entire race.

Sounds pretty par for the course for Star Trek. I truly am struggling to see the issue here but I think we are talking past each other at this point.

Regardless, the Discovery Klingons added variety to a species. I'm not saying it was a perfect execution, but it looks like they are expanding on the make up design in to Season 2. And, taken as a whole for Klingons, it added more variety to the Klingon species, something I heartily support.

 

[Rahul]

I guess that's where I would disagree. Replacing one uniform look with another one is IMO not adding "variety" to the bunch (even though, if we compare all the different iterations we now have one more form to look at). It's IMO just that - an inferiour replacement.

The Orcs in "Lord of the Rings" had variety. There were different classes of them, and each and every individual looked different, and they were all sharing the same screen. The Orcs in the mass scenes of "The Hobbit" didn't have variety. They were all the same CGI-model copy-pasted all over. Sure, it was one "new" model compared to "Lord of the Rings". But on screen - they were all the same, indistinguishable uniform model.

 

[fireproof78]

I guess that's where I would disagree. Replacing one uniform look with another one is IMO not adding "variety" to the bunch (even though, if we compare all the different iterations we now have one more form to look at). It's IMO just that - an inferiour replacement.

The Orcs in "Lord of the Rings" had variety. There were different classes of them, and each and every individual looked different, and they were all sharing the same screen. The Orcs in the mass scenes of "The Hobbit" didn't have variety. They were all the same CGI-model copy-pasted all over. Sure, it was one "new" model compared to "Lord of the Rings". But on screen - they were all the same, indistinguishable uniform model.

I think it's a matter of how you look at it. Taken within the larger whole of the species it added variety.

As for me, there was enough variety for me to appreciate the design of the Klingons.

As for LOTR, yes, the goblins and Orcs substantially changed and not for the better. But, that was an attempt to reduce actors from passing out due to the prosthetics, so they went to CGI.

 

[Tuskin38]

They all looked exactly identical

No they didn't?

They had different ridges, different noses, different head shapes.

 

[Rahul]

No they didn't?

They had different ridges, different noses, different head shapes.

Them?

Yeah, all notable klingon characters had distinctive features. And they quite had a lot of klingon characters! So they definitely put a lot of effort on the make-up on their part!

My problem is with the backgrund "klingon warriour" standard face-mold. All the mooks looked identical, like Stormtroopers. I think even J.J. Abrams made the right decision that - when using such extensive make-up - he put helmets on all his background klingons. This way they could look "identical", but we could pretend under each mask is a different individual.

If they all have the same latex head, then it becomes more difficult. The supposed "face" itself starts looking like a mask (because it is!). Really, that's actually a drawback of advanced make-up technology: On TNG or DS9, there always was enough part of the actor face left free that they could use the same standard mold of the ridges for every background klingon (a less detailed version of Worfs'), and them still all being notaby different visually. Wheras when putting full make-up on the head, every single one has to be either altered individually, or you end up looking with a bunch of clone-dudes.

 

[fireproof78]

Extensive genetic engineering to craft perfect cannon fodder. It had some, um, side effects.

 

[Worf2DS9]

...L'Rell (with glorious 80s' hair)...

Ooo, so that was L'Rell! Looked like she was in the process of undergoing some sort of transformation with all that glowy light on her face.