News Female Same-Sex Couple For Discovery?

[Tuskin38]

how exactly do you plan to go about showing someone as transgendered

You can mention it in dialogue. Or as mentioned above, flashbacks.

 

[Longinus]

I really have no clue what the level of medical tech has to do with anyting... Sure, the related procedures would probably be much easier, so what?

 

[Awesome Possum]

I really have no clue what the level of medical tech has to do with anyting... Sure, the related procedures would probably be much easier, so what?

It doesn’t.

 

[Fateor]

I don't think you can detect a person being transgender from birth. I think it was the youtuber contrapoints who said "I wasn't born a woman, I was born a fucking baby like everybody else", but I'm definitely no expert on the subject and would like to be correctly by someone who is if I'm wrong. But even if it were possible to just detect a trans person, shouldn't it still be their decision if and when they transition?

While the subject matter is currently in it's infancy so far studies suggest there are in fact detectable biological, though not genetic, differences. And the Federation is medically speaking over 200 years ahead of us and can map a body's structure down to at least the subatomic level.

It could be mentioned? Or you could shown a childhood flashback?

In a society/culture where it's completely accepted that a person is the sex they want to be why would any of the rare family who would know what they were born as go around mentioning it or calling the person in question anything other then their preferred pronoun?

Similarly without the societal/cultural pressures and discrimination's that exist in the modern day in concerns to how a person should look and dress, how would you tell whether the child wearing a dress was genetically a boy or a girl?

 

[thribs]

At least STD is getting its priorities right.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I put those two words in quotes because I was using quote marks as they are supposed to be used to show I was giving a direct speech quotation of the words used by MadeIndescribable as a descriptive.

Uh huh. Just be mindful of how you use "words" in "quotes" and need-lessly hyphenate them "because" it can make it come off like you're saying it's not a real thing, which is what Possum and I explained before.

 

[borgboy]

I hope I'm not covering territory too well tread, but there was a female couple making out in the Orion opium den or whatever that place was, and Mirror Giorgiou (sp?) was in bed with a male and female Orion, so we have seen some representation of lesbians and bisexual women in addition to the dancing couple. We need more, absolutely, but DISCO is off to a great start for representation I think.

 

[Awesome Possum]

While the subject matter is currently in it's infancy so far studies suggest there are in fact detectable biological, though not genetic, differences. And the Federation is medically speaking over 200 years ahead of us and can map a body's structure down to at least the subatomic level.

This completely ignores that non-binary people also exist or that some trans people are fine with not exactly appearing identical to cis people. But you've made it clear that you have absolutely no concern about how trans people actually feel about themselves and their bodies. The future can't have anyone who doesn't fit into your standards cis normality. Good thing you don't write the show or have any influence on it. You'd make Trek into a nightmare dystopia.

Once again, trans people are not a disease or defect that needs to be cured. We're part of the spectrum of the human race. There are right-handed and left-handed people, skin colors of every shade, hair colors of every shade, eye colors of every shade, cis and trans people, straight, gay, bi, asexual people. All exist and all are equally human. We don't get to start picking and choosing who to get rid of.

In a society/culture where it's completely accepted that a person is the sex they want to be why would any of the rare family who would know what they were born as go around mentioning it or calling the person in question anything other then their preferred pronoun?

It's not like families can be old fashioned, clinging to the past. Maybe like running a wine vineyard, refusing to ever go off planet. It certainly wouldn't lead to any drama.

Oh wait...

Star Trek has shown us that some people never change, some just like the old ways. Maybe there are still a few transphobic people around. There are still xenophobic people around and aliens have been a part of society for centuries. Not that the show needs that drama. Uhura didn't have to constantly deal with racism, she just served on the ship. Why would a trans person constantly have to deal with transphobia? A trans person can't just serve on the ship? We do have more things to do than constantly correct bigots, not that I don't have my hands full some days. I like to write and watch sci-fi, I have a job and friends. I don't have an ongoing plot in my life about being trans, I just live. I fully expect you to ignore this and just repeat your same argument. I put this here, just to point out how little you care about what I'm posting.

Similarly without the societal/cultural pressures and discrimination's that exist in the modern day in concerns to how a person should look and dress, how would you tell whether the child wearing a dress was genetically a boy or a girl?

How would you and why would you think they would force a medical procedure on a child before they actually had formed their own thoughts on their body and gender? Are you more concerned with everyone in society looking a certain way or the health of the individual if they chose to be different? You honestly seemed confused about what you want. You keep insisting that trans people should be happy, but only by what you, an uninformed cis person who openly dismisses a trans person's ideas, think they want. Do you think you know more about what I want than I do?

You also seem to think that this should just be a single, one-off character who appears in one episode and disappears. That's not representation, that's a token appearance. I want a character like Uhura, Sulu or Stamets. A regular character who contributes and appears at least once an episode. They need to be played by an actual trans person too, not having one would be as awful as casting a white man in dark makeup to play a black man.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

One you don’t seem to have the slightest understanding of anything about transgender people on any level.

I'm sure you're right... it's not like I could have had different experiences that you've had and arrived at completely different conclusions on my own, right? Obviously I'm just an ignorant cis-gender male talking out of my ass because that's what it's always about when someone disagrees with you.

Two medical technology isn’t as advanced as you seem to think. People are still getting paralyzed, people are still blind or have disabilities. They don’t think them as an illness, they just make it easier to function in society. Geordi while born blind, has a greater range of vision than any of us can imagine. He’s not missing anything and even refused being given “normal” vision. Geordi isn’t damaged and he doesn’t need to be fixed, in fact his Visor makes him a better engineer which gives his life meaning.

And yet, Geordi is capable of getting (and eventually DOES get) a more functional prosthesis than his visor. Picard has an artificial heart, Detmer has a prosthesis that probably restores some pretty traumatic damage to her face and skull, and Arne Darvin apparently managed to life his entire life as a human after being surgically altered from the Klingon baseline (as will Ash Tyler, probably). There's also cross-species hybrids like Spock or Keylar, which suggests that at least reproductive science has produced solutions to known quantites. Gender reassignment, therefore, is unlikely to be that much of an issue. We can already do that with CURRENT technology, even if our technique boils down to what McCoy would call "the goddamn spanish inquisition." A refinement of current techniques, at worst, is likely. OTOH, something more radical -- say, retro-viral gene re-sequencing that turns Y-chromosomes into copied X chromosomes -- wouldn't be that unusual either. Indeed, this might be one of the clinical examples of a biogenic agent (rather than "weapon").

Likewise transgender people, I’m not sure why you added the hyphen and scare quotes, are not broken.

I'm not sure what you find scary about quotes or hyphens, exactly, but as even you point out there is a difference between gender and sex and that what Americans call transgender people would more accurately be referred to as transsexual people. Changing genders and/or gender roles doesn't necessarily have anything to do with changing sex.

Also not sure where the word "broken" appears in my post, so I'm not even going to touch that issue.

The other is gender dysphoria, something that most but not all trans people have.

And is also something that a number of people who are NOT transgender have, which is my point. Gender dysphoria manifests in a number of ways and can manifest in conjunction with other psychological disorders, and a good mental health professional will know what to look for in deciding whether or not transitioning is the right choice for an individual person.

tldr: Not everyone who "feels like they're a different gender" is necessarily transgender or even should be. Future medical science is likely to get BETTER at figuring out the subtleties of this, not worse. I suspect you know that and are just being reactionary.

To make this simple: Gender is between your ears, Sex is between your legs.

And between the two of them, 23rd century medical science is likely to find sex relatively easy to modify. The cultural animus surrounding the disconnect some people feel between their biological sex and their gender -- whether they are prepared or would benefit from transition or not -- are the result of this problem being really hard to solve. If the transition wasn't so difficult, the social category we currently know as "transgender" wouldn't be all that relevant, if it even exists at all (kind of like we don't have a recognizable category for "people who have had tonsilectomies").

So maybe the problem isn’t trans people, but our culture.

We're talking about science fiction, dude. I would be astonished if binary sexes was even the norm among alien species. The fact that it seems to be the norm in the Star Trek universe is actually intensely frustrating to me.

My point is that in western culture (most cultures, really) the concept of gender is a social construct that, to varying degrees, reflects sexual dimorphism among humans. The current difficulty is the fact that changing is relatively easy -- if, for various reasons, controversial -- to do, while changing sex is a more time consuming and often painful process. If changing sexes wasn't that difficult to do, it would fundamentally change what being transgender even meant.

It creates the idea that being cisgender is the norm and default for the species.

Being cisgender IS the norm and default for the species. Just like being right handed with homocrhomatic eyes is the norm and default for the species. The issue isn't changing what we consider the norm, the issue is reaching a place culturally where deviating from the norm doesn't subject you to social ostracism or oppression. We don't punish kids for being left handed, we don't mock and harass people with heterochromia, and we don't oppress transgender people for having a gender that doesn't match their sex.

All of which is besides the point. If sex is relatively simple to modify, then the "trans" part of transgenderism isn't all that long.

So yes, I’d like to see a trans person played by a trans person being treated as their true gender without any question. Maybe they thaw out someone from the 21st century or some historical figure so they can comment on it and be corrected. But the crew should think nothing of it.

I liked the way they handled Culber and Stamets, personally. There's something very satisfying about an openly gay couple having one of the healthiest relationships we've ever seen in Star Trek while also being two of the LEAST weird people on the entire ship.

I feel like something along those lines would be apropos; say, someone reading a character's medical history which includes mention that she had a kidney replaced at age 12, reassigned from male to female at age 14, and hospitalized at age 16 due to complications resulting from wisdom teeth removal.

 

[borgboy]

For what it's worth I do remember hearing there was a human trans character in a recent Trek novel but I don't remember which book.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I'm sure you're right... it's not like I could have had different experiences that you've had and arrived at completely different conclusions on my own, right? Obviously I'm just an ignorant cis-gender male talking out of my ass because that's what it's always about when someone disagrees with you.

If you have ideas of how cis men are supposed to be represented, I'll be happy to hear it. I don't want you to explain my identity to me.

And yet, Geordi is capable of getting (and eventually DOES get) a more functional prosthesis than his visor. Picard has an artificial heart, Detmer has a prosthesis that probably restores some pretty traumatic damage to her face and skull, and Arne Darvin apparently managed to life his entire life as a human after being surgically altered from the Klingon baseline (as will Ash Tyler, probably). There's also cross-species hybrids like Spock or Keylar, which suggests that at least reproductive science has produced solutions to known quantites. Gender reassignment, therefore, is unlikely to be that much of an issue. We can already do that with CURRENT technology, even if our technique boils down to what McCoy would call "the goddamn spanish inquisition." A refinement of current techniques, at worst, is likely. OTOH, something more radical -- say, retro-viral gene re-sequencing that turns Y-chromosomes into copied X chromosomes -- wouldn't be that unusual either. Indeed, this might be one of the clinical examples of a biogenic agent (rather than "weapon").

You've missed my point by a few light years. I used Geordi as an example of a character with a trait, but it doesn't define him. His stories are not about being blind, he's an engineer, Data's buddy and weird around women. Star Trek is fiction, the medical technology can be whatever the writers want it to be. Do you understand that Captain Kirk isn't a real person? That the Enterprise can't really go to warp drive? I hope you do, that would be sad. But I can't think of any other possible reason to keep making this absurd argument. Star Trek is fiction about the future, a parable for people in the present. That's why TOS dealt with so many social issues on the 60s and TNG dealt with issues of the 80s. There weren't going through a weird phase where they got retro for centuries old concepts and art design, that's when it's made. Trans people exist in the present and they're at the heart of a major civil rights issue at this time. Makes sense that a show about social issues, would deal with a current social issue by having a trans crewmember to get the audience used to the idea of trans people being normal humans and equally worthy of love and respect.

I'm not sure what you find scary about quotes or hyphens, exactly, but as even you point out there is a difference between gender and sex and that what Americans call transgender people would more accurately be referred to as transsexual people. Changing genders and/or gender roles doesn't necessarily have anything to do with changing sex.

Yeah no.

Also not sure where the word "broken" appears in my post, so I'm not even going to touch that issue.


And is also something that a number of people who are NOT transgender have, which is my point. Gender dysphoria manifests in a number of ways and can manifest in conjunction with other psychological disorders, and a good mental health professional will know what to look for in deciding whether or not transitioning is the right choice for an individual person.

Thanks for educating me about me.

tldr: Not everyone who "feels like they're a different gender" is necessarily transgender or even should be. Future medical science is likely to get BETTER at figuring out the subtleties of this, not worse. I suspect you know that and are just being reactionary.

I never said that. I'm not sure why you brought it up other than an attempt to dismiss trans people and act like people are being forced to be something they aren't.

And between the two of them, 23rd century medical science is likely to find sex relatively easy to modify. The cultural animus surrounding the disconnect some people feel between their biological sex and their gender -- whether they are prepared or would benefit from transition or not -- are the result of this problem being really hard to solve. If the transition wasn't so difficult, the social category we currently know as "transgender" wouldn't be all that relevant, if it even exists at all (kind of like we don't have a recognizable category for "people who have had tonsilectomies").

Once again, it's fictional. You're looking for excuses to never show trans people.

We're talking about science fiction, dude.

I would be astonished if binary sexes was even the norm among alien species. The fact that it seems to be the norm in the Star Trek universe is actually intensely frustrating to me.

It's almost like the show is written by cishet people and not a perfect account of the future. Fucking crazy.

My point is that in western culture (most cultures, really) the concept of gender is a social construct that, to varying degrees, reflects sexual dimorphism among humans. The current difficulty is the fact that changing is relatively easy -- if, for various reasons, controversial -- to do, while changing sex is a more time consuming and often painful process. If changing sexes wasn't that difficult to do, it would fundamentally change what being transgender even meant.

Gender roles are a social concept, roles like men having short hair, taking on the dominant position in a relation or how women are supposed to have long hair and be submissive. We made that up. Gender itself seems to be hardwired into the species. But thanks for trying. READ MORE

Being cisgender IS the norm and default for the species. Just like being right handed with homocrhomatic eyes is the norm and default for the species. The issue isn't changing what we consider the norm, the issue is reaching a place culturally where deviating from the norm doesn't subject you to social ostracism or oppression. We don't punish kids for being left handed, we don't mock and harass people with heterochromia,

No it's not, its just more common. There is no default human, we aren't a specially designed program. We're biological and life likes to try different variations, that's how evolution works. A species that's identical to each other is more likely to go extinct. Humans, having minds, show even more variation since the mind, being a product of biology can have multiple variables that we can't predict. All of which are normal and natural. If it happens to a human that was born, it's natural and the norm.

and we don't oppress transgender people for having a gender that doesn't match their sex.

I don't even know where to start. I guess you don't understand reality. The US President is engaged in a legal battle against the military, his own Sec. of Defense and the Judicial branch to ban trans people from the military. Trans people are attacked and beaten on the streets for existing. Churches and government officials openly support bullying trans kids and the US Dept. of Education refuses to even listen to them. Are you even aware of how wrong what you posted was?

Probably not.

All of which is besides the point. If sex is relatively simple to modify, then the "trans" part of transgenderism isn't all that long.

Being transgender isn't an ism. It's a way to describe a human.

I liked the way they handled Culber and Stamets, personally. There's something very satisfying about an openly gay couple having one of the healthiest relationships we've ever seen in Star Trek while also being two of the LEAST weird people on the entire ship.

I feel like something along those lines would be apropos; say, someone reading a character's medical history which includes mention that she had a kidney replaced at age 12, reassigned from male to female at age 14, and hospitalized at age 16 due to complications resulting from wisdom teeth removal.

And if you had ever read a single post I had made, you'd see that we agree. I just feel it's important that they're played by an actual trans person. The era of cis people playing trans people needs to go the way of blackface. It's insulting and dehumanizing, something Star Trek and we as a civilized society should be against.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

If the transition wasn't so difficult, the social category we currently know as "transgender" wouldn't be all that relevant, if it even exists at all (kind of like we don't have a recognizable category for "people who have had tonsilectomies").

We're talking about science fiction, dude.

I warned you about putting transgender in scare quotes, and now you've added intentionally misgendering Possum and lecturing her on her identity while comparing it to getting a tonsillectomy. Infraction for trolling. Comments to PM.

 

[GrathonTolar]

There were women dancing together at the crew party in "Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad".

I cried. First Stamets/Culber, then this background couple. After 50 years of Star Trek going out of their way to avoid depicting same sex relationships, I didn't realize how much it was going to mean to me to know that LGBT people actually make it to the future.

The guys made it work so well because they were incredible in playing those roles, it was well written, and they curated their parts with precision and feeling.

I think if they go down the "two women couple" path, it now becomes a political statement and more of a gimmick because they have done it twice. LGBT technically should not matter by the time we make it to the Trek era, we should all just be human beings.

 

[Awesome Possum]

LGBT technically should not matter by the time we make it to the Trek era, we should all just be human beings.

Then there shouldn't be a problem with showing more in the background or having lesbian characters.

 

[GrathonTolar]

There’s a few others. But the fact you can only think of one out of the entire population should speak volumes.

It does speak lot of volumes. And honestly, when Discovery announced they would have a gay character, I honestly though (or wishful thinking it turns out) they would get a trans actor/actress into the show. Not to make the person a "trans in trek social commentary" , but to just show it is a regular part of the fabric of humanity and there is hope we will get there ourselves one day.

Its been said in this thread, but... the leader of America wants to kick trans people out of the military (people with medals, command positions, you name it) and 50% of this country would agree with that. Evangelical Christianity and all it's discrimination still flows through through the country and we are a couple of generations away from trans people being where gay people are in 2018 in terms of opportunity and acceptance.

 

[GrathonTolar]

And for those of you old enough to have been media aware in 1994, you will remember the outrage that DS9 was planning to have two women kiss on camera. Discovery has an opportunity to push further (which they did this year) because they are not on network TV and beholden to all the Christian parents groups threatening sponsors and so forth.

 

[GrathonTolar]

Although, even with the Jadzia kiss, they gave themselves an "out" by saying it was actually a dude Jadzia loved and it wasn't really a lesbian kiss. A half measure, but they wouldn't have got it on screen if it was just two women.

 

[GrathonTolar]

Then there shouldn't be a problem with showing more in the background or having lesbian characters.

LIke my other post said, there will be a problem because half our country are still bigots towards LGBT. So, adding another couple would come off as a gimmick and not authentic like the first one. I am not saying it is right, but this is the reality we still live in.

 

[GrathonTolar]

It would be much better if they developed an organic relationship between two established characters, instead of bringing in two unknown crew people to be "The lesbian couple". So like if Burnham spends the 2nd season falling in love with one of the women on the bridge crew for example (it could be a heck of a story for her to develop something with Detmer for example, due to their back story).

 

[Awesome Possum]

LIke my other post said, there will be a problem because half our country are still bigots towards LGBT. So, adding another couple would come off as a gimmick and not authentic like the first one. I am not saying it is right, but this is the reality we still live in.

Uhura was on TOS at the height of the Civil Rights Era. Stations in the south refused to air the show. They should be proud to piss off bigots, they shouldn’t get a say anymore.