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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x15 - "Will You Take My Hand?"

Rate the episode...

  • 10 - A wonderful season finale!

    Votes: 89 26.2%
  • 9

    Votes: 51 15.0%
  • 8

    Votes: 64 18.8%
  • 7

    Votes: 46 13.5%
  • 6

    Votes: 18 5.3%
  • 5

    Votes: 24 7.1%
  • 4

    Votes: 15 4.4%
  • 3

    Votes: 10 2.9%
  • 2

    Votes: 7 2.1%
  • 1 - An awful season finale.

    Votes: 16 4.7%

  • Total voters
    340
Kirk & Picard were never found guilty of anything as far as I can remember. And Picard wasn’t doing anything of his own free will so I don’t think that should be a comparison point, but Kirk going rogue is certainly a fair comparison. Although Kirk by that point had a lifetime of goodwill built up and likely had friends everywhere in SF command that were willing to look the other way. My issue isn’t so much that she was reinstated, but to me it would be easier to swallow if they suspended her sentence and said you’re back in SF but you’re starting at the bottom. To just hand wave it all and put her right back where she was is just odd to me.

She was serving LIFE in prison. It’s not like they discovered new evidence that indicates she was wrongfully accused. I think story wise they made the charge and punishment too severe considering they knew 10-12 episodes later they were going to wipe it all away.

I agree it's not apples to apples in either case...but they are equally ridiculous situations to reinstate these officers and give them command of high-profile starships again.

We all know Picard was not acting of his own free will for example. But you have to remember at this point in Star Trek history, very little was known or understood about the Borg. It's crazy to assume that Starfleet would simply put him back in the captains chair without months or perhaps years of observation given that they do not know or understand the potential lingering side effects of the experience he went through, or even if he was truly separated from the hive. Furthermore, to assume that he had no significant psychological impacts is also craziness.

The only realistic conclusion to Picards story would have been for him to either be forced to resign after months of medical and psychological evaluation, and or to be permanently grounded on earth in a desk assignment.

And, if you think about the modern day analogy I threw in there for what Kirk did in TSFS, it's equally crazy that he ever would have commanded a ship again.

So again, in light of all that, I find myself pretty forgiving with the direction the current series chose to end on!
 
I agree it's not apples to apples in either case...but they are equally ridiculous situations to reinstate these officers and give them command of high-profile starships again.

We all know Picard was not acting of his own free will for example. But you have to remember at this point in Star Trek history, very little was known or understood about the Borg. It's crazy to assume that Starfleet would simply put him back in the captains chair without months or perhaps years of observation given that they do not know or understand the potential lingering side effects of the experience he went through, or even if he was truly separated from the hive. Furthermore, to assume that he had no significant psychological impacts is also craziness.

The only realistic conclusion to Picards story would have been for him to either be forced to resign after months of medical and psychological evaluation, and or to be permanently grounded on earth in a desk assignment.

And, if you think about the modern day analogy I threw in there for what Kirk did in TSFS, it's equally crazy that he ever would have commanded a ship again.

So again, in light of all that, I find myself pretty forgiving with the direction the current series chose to end on!
It seems that some people are trying to justify the part of this story that doesn’t make sense by citing other examples of Trek stories that didn’t make sense. And look, your criticism of the Kirk and Picard stories are totally fair and I actually have the same issues with the examples you use. I may not agree that they are exactly the same as what happened with Burnham, but they are good examples of story tellers just waving their hand to get out of a corner so that we have a happy (or as close to it as we can get) ending. I also think that much of today’s TV is smarter than to make those kinds of mistakes and I want to hold DSC to that kind of standard. Maybe that’s not fair but I am hopeful it will be of that kind of quality in the end. I like the series and will continue to watch it. I’m only saying the episode and season in general deserves criticism for showing us that Burnham went from life in prison, to all is completely forgiven. Now, I fully expected that to happen TBH so I’m not surprised in any way. But, when I’m grading an episode I’m going to take points off for something like that. I don’t really care that other Trek series or movies made similar mistakes or that it was inevitable.

Now if you’re asking do I forgive the mistake? Of course. I think the season as a whole was a strong 9/10. Nothing is perfect and the good in this show heavily outweighs the bad. I’m just slightly (and I stress slightly) disappointed that this season peaked 2 or 3 episodes ago and then sort of stumbled home in the final stretch. Most shows get better after the first season as they find their footing and I think S2 of DSC will be great and I can’t wait to watch it.
 
I've watched it again. I'm genuinely staggered as to just how bad this was. THAT was how the Klingon war was ended, really ? One lone Klingon with a padd ended the war ?

The spore drive ?

Words fail me, one silly line about shelving it for now until they find a non human interface.

Starfleet concocts this genocidal plan one minute and abandons it the next because Burnham gives a speech.

The writers must have forgotten MU Emperor being willing to kill Burnham a mere 3 episodes ago because now she's changing her plans for mass destruction because she can't watch the special one die.

I think this series collapsed after the death of Lorca, this one episode in particular is up there with Shades of Gray as the worst Trek I've ever seen.

But oh look in the distance - It's a giant Enterprise shaped squirrel.
 
Overall, I felt the finale was a bit....... low key?

I felt the same way. When the gang are in the Orion District on Quo'nos, I actually checked the episode time, and thinking that it did not feel like a finale and there was not much time left to wrap things up. There was no sense of emergency despite the Klingons being on the verge of attacking Earth. Instead, we have our characters take their sweet time, selling weapons, sharing their feelings, tasting the local cuisine, playing Klingon games, checking out the dancers etc... I was surprised that the episode spent so much time on these things in a finale. It is a big reason why the finale felt rushed. After all those scenes were done, there was only about 20 minutes left to wrap everything up.

Basically this finale was 5 minutes of Burnham and MU-Gorgiou egging each other on, 10 minutes trying to get info on how to get the Discovery inside Quo'nos, 20 minutes of the gang wandering around the surface of Quo'nos trying to get information on how to get the probe inside Quo'nos, 5 minutes of actually resolving the crisis and then 5 minutes of the characters celebrating their win and teasing for season 2.
 
Yes, yes and you forgot he also played Balok in the TOS ep The Corbomite Maneuver, for which we must revoke your Trekkie card.

I didn't forget. I was simply testing to see who might and might not be from the mirror universe. Because you knew he was Balok, we can safely assume you aren't (most likely) from the mirror universe. But if any comments are made as to the taste and or texture of Kelpian, my suspicion shall be resumed.

I feel like such a diligence to expose the MU counterparts on TrekBBS deserves at least 1.5 trekkie cards.
 
I was told once, by a Master Sergeant, that the real reason for this is to prevent a long-standing cadre of soldiers to become loyal to a base commander rather than exclusively to the Commander-in-Chief, lest said CO decides he doesn't like what the President is doing for any particular reason, political or otherwise, and proceeds to stage an armed insurrection with a bunch of loyalists

Which is exactly what happens in Starfleet :rofl:
 
It seems that some people are trying to justify the part of this story that doesn’t make sense by citing other examples of Trek stories that didn’t make sense.

I'm actually not justifying or making excuses for anything. I'm simply saying it's consistent and that given the number of times things like this have happened...I've been conditioned to not care about this aspect of Star Trek.
 
So, I'm not even an amateur writer, but here's how I would have ended the season:

Georgiou is sent along on her mission to blow up Qo'noS. The device isn't a ridiculous "hydro bomb" however. Let's keep the technobabble somewhat feasible, and say it's a dark energy weapon. When it goes off, it accelerates the cosmological constant in a localized area of space - essentially canceling the force of gravity and ripping the target planet apart.

The first half of the episode could go largely as it was shown originally, although hopefully with a little bit less hamminess by MU Georgiou. When Burnham finally goes down to the well/shrine thingy to confront MU Georgiou, she finds that she isn't willing to go along with the plan to turn over the bomb. Hand-to-hand combat ensues, and Burnham is ultimately forced to kill MU Georgiou. However, the bomb was not only keyed to her DNA, but her heartbeat, and the triggering mechanism goes off, albeit with enough time for Burnham to escape safely.

After we return to the Discovery, we get to see the destruction of Qo'noS in all its terrible glory. Word quickly comes in from Starfleet that the effort was a failure - the Klingon fleet decided that rather then return home and try and spacelift survivors, they were going to seek their vengeance on the Federation. Earth is bombarded from orbit, and billions die. Assaults on Andor, Vulcan, and Tellar begin. All hope appears to be lost.

Burnham says some line about their being no second chances in life. Stamets interjects that maybe there are some. Since the spore drive allowed them to travel forward in time, it should also allow them to travel back in time as well. The crew begins to hatch a plan, along with L'Rell, about how to undo the war, which has destroyed both the Federation and the homeworld of the Klingon Empire.

Discovery jumps back to just prior to the Battle of the Binary Stars. L'Rell has the shield/cloak frequencies of the Ship of the Dead. Burnham, Ash, and L'Rell use them to board T'Kumva's ship. L'Rell (and Ash) explain the outcome of the Klingon War - that T'Kumva's dream of a unified Klingon empire will die, Qo'noS will be a lifeless shell, and the houses will continue their petty squabbles. This convinces T'Kumva to reconsider - to try to unite Klingons from within, rather then through a show of force against the Federation.

However, not all of the Klingon houses are onboard with this idea. One faction - lead by Kol - still thinks they should attack the Federation fleet. A short-lived "civil war" breaks out among the Klingon houses, with Kor's forces destroying the Shenzou and all those aboard perishing. The battle also results in the "downtime" version of Voq dying - with Ash at his side, getting to see "himself" perish.

Ultimately though, T'Kumva and his allies succeed. As they were victorious in battle, T'Kumva is named the new chancellor of the Klingon Empire, and declares there will be a detente with the Federation...for now. Burnham gets to "save the day" but still feels bummed because she blew her chance to save "her" Georgiou. Stamets is thrilled to be in a world where Culber is still alive, but also feels weird, because he knows that Culber in this world still has his own Stamets. After the debriefing, PU Lorca walks up to Burnham, and says he hopes that in the future, she won't judge the things his counterpart did against him.
 
Look, they could have avoided this foolishness simply by not doing the ass-pull of having Discovery materialize nine months into their own future and announcing for cliffhanger purposes that the Klingons were overrunning the Federation.

i mean, you're patching plaster on a ceiling that's soaked through with rain water and about to collapse.
 
Somehow I made it through all 54 pages of this thread.

There isn't much left to say but Fuckin' Star Trek, yaas!
10/10 it was around an 8 but by the time the 1701 turned up and the music played I was loving it.
 
Honestly it would probably have been better if the argument on whether or not to destroy the planet was between Burnham and Lorca, and Lorca wasn't from the MU, he's just a man willing to do awful things for what he perceives as the right reasons. They spent far more time together over the season and it would have carried more weight than Burnham vs. evil space Hitler from a different dimension.
 
I think the entire series should be about Section 31. Like, they should literally change the name to "Section 31- A Star Trek Story about Section 31." That's how awesome and essential to my enjoyment of Star Trek Section 31 is.

I'd be ecstatic if we NEVER see Section 31 again. I don't need Trek Bond.

It turns out that the Enterprise has passed through a "Rascals"-type energy anomaly, and the entire crew has reverted to being 12 years old.
Not the crew, the fans.
 
I've watched it again. I'm genuinely staggered as to just how bad this was. THAT was how the Klingon war was ended, really ? One lone Klingon with a padd ended the war ?

With no evidence of truth. Might have been more convincing if the feds planted 10 of them. Detonated 1 to show effect.

The spore drive ?

Words fail me, one silly line about shelving it for now until they find a non human interface.

Agreed. Makes absolutely no sense when it totally serves the feds purpose of exploration and discovery.

Before it comes up...
You can’t compare to the Genesis device as that was a weapon of mass destruction.

Starfleet concocts this genocidal plan one minute and abandons it the next because Burnham gives a speech.

The writers must have forgotten MU Emperor being willing to kill Burnham a mere 3 episodes ago because now she's changing her plans for mass destruction because she can't watch the special one die.

I think killing Burnham didn’t serve her purpose. I mean what would she achieve by destroying Kronos and then not be in favor with the federation?

I agree with star fleet shelving plans, but then again, often star fleet is shown as being pretty stupid.

I think this series collapsed after the death of Lorca, this one episode in particular is up there with Shades of Gray as the worst Trek I've ever seen.

But oh look in the distance - It's a giant Enterprise shaped squirrel.

Well I wouldn’t go that far.
 
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