It'd be very interesting not to mention cool if that ends up being the case.
Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x01 - "The Vulcan Hello"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
It'd be very interesting not to mention cool if that ends up being the case.
Remember, though, that this was part of the story. Sarek was quick to caution Michael against using the Vulcan approach in her current situation for exactly the reasons you listed...it's not a "apples to apples" situation.
I think one of the more interesting elements / questions this leaves is that you're left to believe that Burnham may have jumped to the "attack now" conclusion erroneously based upon her prejudices and personal background.
I think that makes it very interesting.
I still don't get why the Vulcan Hello was hidden from the Federation, with Klingons sitting on one of their borders? Georgiou rejects the only pertinent piece of information she has and someone she served with for seven years. Someone she thought should be a starship captain.
She ends up with looking inflexible with no reasoning to back it up other than Starfleet doesn't fire first.
She ends up with looking inflexible with no reasoning to back it up other than Starfleet doesn't fire first.
^
But it's completely against the principles and rules of engagement for Starfleet. It goes against everything Georgiou has been trained in and fought for her entire career.
But it's completely against the principles and rules of engagement for Starfleet. It goes against everything Georgiou has been trained in and fought for her entire career.
That's why she comes across as inflexible. She has no other information. If the Vulcan Hello wasn't a secret, then there would likely be classes at the Academy on it, examples of times where it didn't work. Then Georgiou could go "X is the reason why this doesn't apply". She would have real world reasoning to back up her approach to the situation.
We're told that Burnham is this great officer, great friend, longtime associate. Then Georgiou just blatantly rejects all of it over Starfleet doesn't fire first.
Tomalak felt like he definitely needed two D'Deridex ships to take on the Enterprise and win, even though he admitted one of his ships might be destroyed, his side would still win. With the addition of three klingon birds of prey, that balanced the scales and neither side would clearly win – mutual destruction was suggested. He felt it wasn't worth it and backed off.
The D'Deridex was twice as long, but slower than the Galaxy class ship, so I don't know why you think it would easily beat the Galaxy class ship. I still think the Galaxy class would have the edge on one D'Deridex warbird. Not a guarantee, but the edge. And the D'Deridex was the best the Romulans had to offer at that time.
And if it took 3 klingon birds of prey to balance that equation, then that suggests again it takes 3 klingons to match one Federation ship of the line (in that case, a Galaxy class starship).
It was mentioned once it took two D'Deridex to outclass an Intrepid class ship (like Voyager), but they would beat the Federation starship.
I think the Galaxy class starship was more powerful than an Intrepid class, though the latter was smaller and faster and more maneuverable.
If the Duras win and are in control, they control the narrative, and the Federation is or does whatever the Duras says it does. The fact they failed 20 years ago is, in large part, why the Romulans as so despised by the Klingons – they were revealed as dishonorable. Had the Enterprise C gone down without a fight, and that information never got out, it seems reasonable the Romulan reputation would have been different, and the Duras could have spun that any way they wanted.
Sure, they're a threat. Even one can get lucky and win, or use guile and win, but all other things being equal, one D-7 was no match for one Constitution Class starship in a toe-to-toe fire fight. And Feds have better tech.
So with the Klingons shown in canon as dying on the vine, I don't see how the Klingons alone could defeat the Federation in that other timeline unless something like what I'm suggesting occurred – they had allies, or Romulan support being at the top of suggestions.
I actually don't believe that though. I believe that Georgiou rejects it for two reasons:
1. It's against policy. Plain and simple. She is under tremendous pressure (like Kirk in Balance of Terror) and a misstep in either direction could mean war. It's engrained in Starfleet that the peaceful approach, patience, and diplomacy is the ultimate tool for resolving these situations (see JL Picard haha). Under these unknown and high-pressure situations, even the best leaders are going to fall back on all their engrained values, training and the fundamental policies of the organization they represent.
2. She believes Burnham is reacting based upon her personal prejudices and experiences (which, admittedly, based on Sarek's caution regarding the applicability of the information), she may very well be. She trusts and obviously has a great relationship with Michael...but this is potentially one area where she must be cautious regarding Michael's attitudes because of her past.
I can't speak to the other point you bring up, though...which is "why doesn't Starfleet understand the concept of The Vulcan Hello?" Perhaps the Vulcans are still somewhat in the ENT mode...where they are not sharing everything openly with other Federation members.
But Georgiou doesn't even ask Burnham where she got this information. Does nothing to try to confirm Burnham's "findings". To me (and me alone), that makes her inflexible, she's locked herself into a course of action and won't budge from it. Which makes her a pretty poor captain.
But Burnham doesn't offer up the source either, which makes her a pretty poor influencer.
Or we could probably blame this on a script that could have used a little additional detailed polishing.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree here on her being a poor captain. I (admittedly surprisingly) found Georgiou to be one of the most engaging, realistic and likable captains featured in the franchise since James Kirk. I'm bummed we might not get more of her (barring any flashbacks). Maybe I'm judging her more on her likability and how much I just found her "believable" and "relatable" than I am on her actual effectiveness.
But, I also like Captain Robau in 2009, and that guy lasted like 30 seconds and got his ship all blown up...so I'm perhaps not a great judge of Captains (other than Kirk of course).
It is reminiscent of Kirk in "Balance of Terror", where he is ordered not to violate the Neutral Zone, and that the ship and crew were expendable before that was to happen.
Then, he gets new information, from sources he trusts and realizes he has to chase the Romulan down and destroy it. He had to make a command decision to go against his orders.
Then, he gets new information, from sources he trusts and realizes he has to chase the Romulan down and destroy it. He had to make a command decision to go against his orders.
Or a lot, depending on your point-of-view.
Georgiou's later actions just make the "I would trust you with my life" from the beginning of the episode ring hollow.
Agree that it's similar...but not the same. The Romulans had already attacked and destroyed outposts and killed Federation citizens in the incident.
The intent of the Klingons had not yet been made clear. Georgiou's hope was obviously for a peaceful resolution....the chance to be at the tip of the spear for establishing the relationship / dialogue, which I'm sure is the goal and dream of every captain. You know that she's conflicted because of the "diplomat vs. soldier" dialogue in the ready room with Michael.
And again, there was obviously enough doubt about Michael's state of mind (injury and personal history) to cause her to pause and fall back on her training at that point.
I view it as a complex and entertaining situation...part of why I was entertained by the episodes.
Certainly understandable why others wouldn't see it that way though.
G
Gonzo
Guest
The Romulans always like to make sure they have the upper hand as it makes them feel superior and two Warbirds definitely achieved that, at least until Picard showed his hand anyway, with just the one it could have gone either way, I very much doubt speed would make any difference at all to the battle as both ships are sluggers not dodgers.
As for the Klingons it really depends on what ships they used, the Vorcha are a solid ship and two of them would be enough to be sure if added to the Galaxy class or 3 Kvort Birds of Prey is about right to make the other Warbird think twice, which is what we got much to Tomalak's chagrin.
There is no question whether the Galaxy is more powerful than the Intrepid, one is at least a Heavy Cruiser or greater and the other is a Light Cruiser at best.
Sorry but no, one D'Deridex class would be too much for an Intrepid class, never mind two, the Romulans upgrade their ships just like Starfleet does, just because its older doesn't mean anything unless you are talking a lot older.
This isn't the place for this anyway, we will have to agree to disagree.
Speed doesn't, but maneuverability might. But not as much as having multiple ships, I would assume. They like the idea so much, in fact, they made a ship that had attack drones under its command. I forget what it was called, not that it matters.
I honestly don't know what type of Klingon warbirds those were and couldn't tell a Vorcha from a Kvort without doing a tiny bit of research. Point is, 3 seemed to balance that equation.
I think the idea of two was that is what it would take to corner them, cut them off, run them down, since otherwise it could always, and quite easily, run away. So if you want to get the Intrepid class for sure, you'll need two D'Deridex ships to do it. In a fire fight, no, I don't think one Intrepid Class would beat one D'Deridex. I don't even like the margins on one Galaxy Class vs one D'Deridex, but I do think the Feds would have the edge and would win more often than not - but not without taking serious damage and suffering loss of life.
G
Gonzo
Guest
They were Klingon Birds of Prey, more likely the larger K'Vort class than the B'rel.
I didn't need to do any research, I used to eat, sleep and breath this stuff.
I am sorry but I just don't agree at all, the Intrepid could outrun the D'Deridex but that's not win the battle that's called running away.
I wont respond again on this subject here, its not fair to the thread.
That was sort of the point of the simulation in the VOY episode, Learning Curve. But it wasn't a no-win scenario like the Kobayashi Maru since retreat (tactically advancing to the rear, living to fight another day) was the viable option Tuvok was looking for from the "cadets." Going down with phasers firing is not an honorable option, in Tuvok's opinion, when retreat and living to fight another day is still an available option.
And given its speed and how tough the ship is, one D'Deridex ship can't do enough damage to stop this retreat. I'm not sure what you disagree with it, actually, since I never said one Intrepid class could beat one D'Deridex, which is obviously wrong, but it's equally wrong, I think, to say one D'Deridex could beat one Intrepid since to beat it in this context you have to destroy it, and the Intrepid class ship can quite handily run away. There are always exceptions of course, like sneak attacks, or catching one off guard with their shields down, etc. but when you see it coming, there's no excuse if one D'Deridex is allowed to destroy an Intrepid class ship.
Honestly, I think a moderator would curtail this if they felt it too out of line for the thread, and many Trek fans would either enjoy it, however tangentially it may relate to the main topic, or would have little trouble scrolling past it if it held no interest for them. But O.K.
This is true, but really not that significant. Even if it took 3 average klingon ships to match 1 average federation ship (which is still not actually true, but the exact numbers don't matter that much) that still does not mean the klingons can't match the federation overall. It just means the klingon fleet must have more ships in it than the federation fleet has, in order to match them. And the fact that we always see them flying in packs is at least one indication that that is actually the case.
Now, it's possible that they build smaller and weaker ships because of resource problems - in that case, it would make their fleet size unlikely to so heavily outmatch starfleet. But it's every bit as possible that they build small, maneuverable ships that are designed to operate in groups because that's just their preferred style of ship to ship combat.
I agree with vger23:
- Burnham had been recently injured, due to the Klingons
- Burnham had a history with them
- it's against all star fleet principles
- Burnham only said it was info from Vulcan (not specifically from sarek)
- as critics of Burnham have said, the applicability of this 240-year old example is questionable
- the current state/posture of the Klingons is unknown having been little seen in 100 years
And finally
- the Klingon ship had obviously been out there a while and had made no aggressive action - this is a most important element
I see nothing wrong with Georgiou's decision, and I also agree Burnham could have been right had they killed T'Kuvma before he could rally the others
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