more reason to love that show.
Why are there so many references to Voyager in Streaming Trek, and so little to DS9 in comparison?
- Thread starter Unimatrix Q
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more reason to love that show.
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...How?
Voyager had more technobabble; I wouldn't call that more sci-fi. DS9, for my money, had more humour.
I love TNG: Voyager felt like a watered down version.
Nope, I was merely replying to the OP and supplying a personal reason as to why this is so.
There's nothing 'controversial' about me liking VOY better than DS9.
I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'll say:
For the simple matter that to some people, 'it just is'.
The premise is better (a ship lost and trying to find a way back).
The crew NOT succumbing to the usual trope of 'oh look, we are away from society, so lets behave like morons'.
Maybe even more interesting characters.
Say what you will about the Kazon, but I actually liked some of those episodes, along with Seska's duplicity and alliance with them, and the two parter 'Basics' for example from the first two seasons.
The organ harvesting Vidiians.
The main thing about Voyager is that it had more potential for longer story arcs which were missed and showing us on-screen how they dealt with damage and lost resources (for which there are more than plausible solutions that work in-universe, but would have been nice to see on-screen).
Year of Hell comes to mind for example which could have stretched over a year... and that was the intent, but the network execs didn't want it.
There was also the Maqui creating tension for the SF crew... which would have been good to see more of in the first season.... but to me, we know the Maqui are basically ex-Federation citizens. That means they would share similar backgrounds with SF officers, and why such 'tensions' would become utterly useless if stretched for too long when faced with the realities they are far from home.
Voyager could have also tried to find a way to save the Equinox and take it with them... Maybe promote Chakotay as captain of that ship and keep the previous Equinox crew in lower positions to 'rehabilitate them' until they show they can be trusted again (again, some losses of Equinox crew like the First Officer and captain) and divide the screen time between the two ships.
I like technobabble because it explains how things work in-universe wise (but I absolutely HATED Trek's reliance on introducing new powerful technologies only to forget about them or not use them)... but which Trek DIDN'T have technobabble?
Also, I wouldn't say Voyager revolved around technobabble. It also had it fair share of humor. Plus, what do you expect?
For a space faring civilization capable of FTL these people are expected to solve problems with the application of scientific method and their technology. You can create good storytelling like that if its used properly.
As for Ds9 having more humor... such as what? To me it had less relevant humor (but more or less the same amount as other Trek shows). The Ferengi were used as a comic relief... and to be honest, beyond maybe one or two episodes of DS9 focusing on them, I was half-cringing at seeing them.
TNG seemed like a bit of a disappointment to me when it was said they were going on a years long mission of exploration in the pilot, when in fact, the Enterprise-D was seemingly kept along the border of Federation space mostly, or inside Federation.
They didn't exactly go far out, and when they did... they kinda panicked and urged to get back ASAP (although granted the circumstances which brought them that far were... unusual).
The premise was great: I wish they'd done something with it.
I like some of the characters, but compared to Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Picard, Data, Worf, Sisko, Kira, Odo, Quark, Nog, Garak, Dax...maybe 7 and the EMH are at that level, and Tom and B'elana are solid....
DS9 had very little, which I appreciated. By the end even TNG was using it as a crutch.
You can if it is, but often on Voyager it wasn't so they didn't. They couldn't be bothered to learn what an event horizon is or what the term "theoretical impossibility" means or how evolution works before writing stories revolving around them.
Not a fan of In the Cards? Take me Out to the Hollosuite? Nearly every Odo/Quark interaction?
Were you also disappointed with TOS in that regard?
They had scientific advisors who knew these things, but the needs of the story outweigh scientific accuracy. It's not ignorance, it's dramatic license. For instance, a realistic explanation of an event horizon would've just gotten in the way of telling the story of "Parallax," while simplifying it as an "energy barrier" (or whatever they called it) was good enough to explain its function in the narrative.
Or they could make up another phenomenon of the week and not have a laughable episode...
This is a question I was pondering myself the other day. I loved DS9, and it's very sad that we haven't gotten any of the characters once again. Maybe in the future. Frankly, there's only been two Voyager characters who have "returned" if you will also, a Nemesis cameo for Janeway (Prodigy doesn't count, it's A.I.) and Seven.
I'll be the first to critique VOY (and other Trek) writers for missed opportunities... and that at Warp 9.975 it would take VOY less than a week to get back because 9.9 = 21 473 x C as it was established in dialogue. Past 9.9, each incremental increase results in doubling of speeds.
If they actually stuck to that idea, then Voyager should have been thrown about 206 million LY's away (well beyond the Milky Way) and that it would take them about 75 years to get back at Warp 9.97 (slightly lower than the touted maximum sustainable cruise velocity which is technically rated as a speed a ship/object should be able to safely sustain indefintiely, or for as long as their resources last).
I was disappointed they were thrown halfway across the galaxy only - but lack of Warp speed consistency (and progress in making it faster on part of the writing staff) has been a common trope in all of Trek... DS9 included.
As for other missed opportunities... those were largely network exec issues. As I said, the series producers wanted to make season long arcs, but the network didn't want that, so it insisted to keep VOY in serialized form as TNG.
I still prefer VOY to DS9.
What, no Janeway on the list?
I thought she was quite solid and far more likeable as a captain than Sisko.
Kes was also quite interesting and I was sad to see her go. I'd say that Neelix, Chakotay and Kim were fairly weak as characters (or ended up as such)... actually, Chakotay started out strong, but then progressively got less development.
Kim also underwent certain points in the series where his interests shifted and personality overall grew... although his lack of promotion was grating.
As for most of the characters you listed... I didn't really care that much about Kira for example, or Quark. Worf was a familiar face from TNG yes, but he certainly didn't distinguish himself as chief of security and all that trope about honor also got a bit boring. Meanwhile, Odo was actually ok, but sometimes he just ended up unnerving me.
Dax was a good character actually. Sisko... I hated how he basically ended up downgrading himself from SF and scientific principles in favor of Bajoran faith. To me, that was absurd.
He was also quite ignorant on historical aspects into what prompted humanity into having the Bell riots for example - even though he should know it was a socio-economic system coupled with lack of relevant education... but Trek writers almost never could explain this adequately... its as if their understanding of these issues is (or at least was)... non-existent.
Or they selectively opted to make Sisko ignorant of this.
I also didn't care much about Sisko's episodes where he was Benny the writer. Honestly, it was pointless to me and boring.
I already knew that black people endured slavery, massive prejudice and bias from society (and in fact, still do - what was showcased in the episode however was watered down version of the horrors people endured).
But what was the point of dredging that up for Sisko? Is it part of history? Yes. Should it be ignored? No.
In the context of 24th century, that would have limited meaning to Sisko... it would in fact serve as a reminder of the terrible past and just how important equality, personal rights and 'freedom' (as loosely people define it) are, but he would already know about this.
The writers (and the wormhole aliens) could have found better ways to 'test' Sisko as opposed to digging up a scenario that in-universe wise would be completely irrelevant to him from a cultural perspective because he's a 24th century human... not a 20th century one. He's centuries removed from those kind of behaviors and would have probably learned about it as part of his basic education (as would any other human) in his era. I doubt such discrimination would exist in the 24th century UFP (in fact, it shouldn't have existed at all when humanity solved most of its issues in the 50 years since First Contact with the Vulcans- and as it was confirmed by Cassidy, its all long part of history - and for Sisko to fixate so much on this seemed... hollow).
Like any other SF captain, he would care about individual rights and freedoms being suppressed and would fight for them (or at least I'd expect him to)... but he wasn't in a setting where black rights would have been contextually relevant to him.
Picard was in a similar setting... when he was temporarily captured and tortured by the Cardassians for example.
Maybe if something like that happened to Sisko in the 24th century, it would have carried more significance.
Heck, O'brien mental torture (which to him lasted decades and was quite real) had more significance in how prison can change a person for the worse and strips you of your basic rights.
Sisko would have also experienced something similar during the Bell riots.
You do realize you described ALL of Trek there, right?
The writers of any series have 'consultants' apparently but for some reason, they are incapable of writing good stories that fit a technologically advanced setting and end up messing up most of it anyway (and how difficult is it to pick up a calculator to come up with a proper time frame it would take at certain warp speeds?), therefore, they end up dumbing things down. DS9 did that quite a bit... maybe not on the technobabble level, but it was just as guilty of dumbing things down like any other series... even excessively so.
The Siege of AR558 by far showcasing the biggest dumbing down I've seen in Trek, or the fact that 2000 dominion ships would be a threat to the ENTIRE AQ (aka a quarter of the Galaxy), even though the UFP as a whole is comprised of over 150 member planets, stretches over 8000 Ly's, and should have had nearly 80 000 ships running around (building at least 1000 ships every year in peace time, and could probably churn out at least 10x more in same or less time if necessary during war) by the time the Dominion War broke out.
As I said, Ds9 cut corners to a pretty large extent in many areas... enough to make the series a lot more 'closer to what's happening in reality' with people exhibiting same patterns of behavior... or starting out differently (more in line with Trek), only to degrade into everyday nonsense of behaviors - which is something that didn't make me like DS9 that much.
Not a fan of the Cardassians. Some interesting characters and episodes, but overall, meh as a species.
Take me out to the holosuite? Are you kidding me? It was one of the worst/boring Ds9 episodes for me.
Odo and Quark interactions were a cat and mouse game fed to the viewer constantly. Some good moments there yes, but on the whole, a bit repetitive.
To this day I hadn't seen much of TOS. Only a few bits and pieces, and every time I try, I just can't get into it enough.
I liked the TOS cast ensemble enough in the movies, but they also came with their own set of caveats.
Not enough to dislike them... I just liked VOY, TNG and ENT characters better (and yes, I know ENT took a lot of what it did from TOS).
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To me, it seems like DS9 was more self-contained or isolated than other Star Trek shows. Yes, there was the Dominion War that effected the entire Federation, but outside of that, pretty much everything in DS9 happened in the Bajor Sector. In comparison, other Trek shows were all over the place and left their marks over a very wide area (that may be even especially true for the USS Voyager). I think for other shows to reference DS9 more, they have to start with something in the Bajor Sector, go through the Bajoran Wormhole, or actually start making stops at the station itself, IMO...
O'Brien moved back to Earth, Ezri and Bashir were on the station as well as Kira, and of course you have Worf. Jadzia died. As I said, I think Colm, Nana, Siddig, Nicole, and Armin could be hired on one of the new shows in some fashion. Worf doubly as he was a TNG star as well. I mean, they invite Guinan back but none of these people?
Guinan was established as a long-time friend and confidante of Picard, who he was very close to. Picard has no such ties to most of the DS9 cast, as much as we love them.
Characters like Riker and Troi and Hugh and Q and Guinan and the Borg are big parts of Picard's history, so it's natural PICARD would want to revisit them. Just as I assume that STRANGE NEW WORLDS will want to revisit Sarek and Amanda again, because of the Spock connection. And, who knows, maybe even Sybok? Or Lelia Kalomi?
They shouldn't have to squeeze in characters from every other Trek series just to achieve some kinda parity or quota, but only if it makes sense to use them, story-wise.
Voyager might actually be more popular than Ds9 but Ds9 has more critical acclaim. When people talk about Ds9 they talk about the quality of writing or the show taking chances that most Trek shows didn't. When people talk about Voyager it comes down to Janeway and Seven bring role models. No talk though about the writing or stories or anything like that.
Worf might make sense, though he was headed to Kronos. O'Brien had some history but nothing deeply personal like Guinan had as a long personal history. So why are they all showing up?
Exactly.
Janeway was fine on paper and I like the actress fine, but found her WAY too inconsistently written as the series went on. Kes' most interesting qualities for me were her ridiculous biology that I assume was the result of what The Caretaker and his mate messed up back in the day.
Yeah, we're just extremely different people.
Possibly different species...
To some degree, but I found Voyager the worst offender by far. TOS was written without scientific advisors nearly 60 years ago, TAS was meant for kids, DS9 focused more on character than technobabble and Enterprise had less because they were 2 centuries back, leaving the technobabble champs: TNG and Voyager, and Voyager took TNGs technobabble and ran fast and far with it.
I envy you.
In the Cards, not the Cardassians.
So different...IDIC indeed.
They weren't just cat and mouse, they had a fascinating frenemyship and great banter outside of just Odo trying to catch him.
IDIC...
I'm hoping for Newsradio.
Guinan & Picard were beyond friendship, beyond family
I don't think it's just because he sat with her in a cave a few hundred years earlier... perhaps we find out why
Given we've established there are DS9 references in the new shows, are there really "so many" Voyager references in comparison? IIRC, Voyager references include:
-On Disco we have Voyager J and an EMH as a guest star in a couple of episodes.
-Seven of Nine has a recurring role on Picard, Icheb guest starred in an episode. A Hirogen was seen among the Ex-Bs and the Sikarians from Prime Factors were mentioned. Don't know if the presence of an EMH on La Sirena counts, as there's a whole holographic support crew there with a holographic navigator, engineer, tactical officer and courtesy specialist.
-Lower Decks mentioned a "Janeway Protocol" and there was a scene where the characters are imitating the warp engine hums of various ships, Voyager among them.
-Janeway is in Prodigy, or rather a hologram based on her.
-On Disco we have Voyager J and an EMH as a guest star in a couple of episodes.
-Seven of Nine has a recurring role on Picard, Icheb guest starred in an episode. A Hirogen was seen among the Ex-Bs and the Sikarians from Prime Factors were mentioned. Don't know if the presence of an EMH on La Sirena counts, as there's a whole holographic support crew there with a holographic navigator, engineer, tactical officer and courtesy specialist.
-Lower Decks mentioned a "Janeway Protocol" and there was a scene where the characters are imitating the warp engine hums of various ships, Voyager among them.
A talking Tom Paris commemorative plate is going to be featured in season 2.
Sure it does, since the whole concept of emergency holograms began on Voyager -- not only the EMH, but the later concept of an Emergency Command Hologram, from which the various other kinds of E_H in Picard and Prodigy are extrapolated.
Although I suppose you could counter that it's more a case of something that originated in one series but is generalizable to the whole universe; for instance, you couldn't say that the inclusion of a holodeck or a replicator is specifically a TNG nod just because they debuted there.
Tawny Newsome wants a talking Kira plate in Lower Decks!
" I want one of Kira Nerys. Deep Space Nine is my Trek. If I wasn’t in Lower Decks, Deep Space Nine would forever be my favorite. And Kira is such a hardcore badass. Kira is basically Antifa, and we love her… Kira is incredible and I feel like anytime I was doubting or confused or whatever, she’d be like, “You know who you are!” She would give me the most stern incredible pep talk. That’s what I would need in my life. "
https://trekmovie.com/2021/08/04/in...ecks-s2-is-great-star-trek-and-gives-zero-fs/
" I want one of Kira Nerys. Deep Space Nine is my Trek. If I wasn’t in Lower Decks, Deep Space Nine would forever be my favorite. And Kira is such a hardcore badass. Kira is basically Antifa, and we love her… Kira is incredible and I feel like anytime I was doubting or confused or whatever, she’d be like, “You know who you are!” She would give me the most stern incredible pep talk. That’s what I would need in my life. "
https://trekmovie.com/2021/08/04/in...ecks-s2-is-great-star-trek-and-gives-zero-fs/
Guinan & Picard were beyond friendship, beyond family
I don't think it's just because he sat with her in a cave a few hundred years earlier... perhaps we find out why
I think we already have that. Nexus buddies.
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