Because in Star Trek, aliens and Nazis go together like peanut butter and jelly.
Why are Klingons so evil?
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Because in Star Trek, aliens and Nazis go together like peanut butter and jelly.
True, but I thought the Cardassians had nabbed that comparison already
*ducks under cover from inevitable fire from the Cardassian 'crew'* 
True, but I thought the Cardassians had nabbed that comparison already
While I thought "Nazi" was just a term people used for someone they thought was "evil" these days.
The Klingons never made the slightest bit of sense to me (how did such idiots make it into space?) until i read the novel "Ishmael" by Barbara Hamberly (i read it a while ago so apologies if i get things a little skewed). In it they explain the Klingons were enslaved by the (now extinct) Karsid empire for 600 years. They were enslaved during their primative tribal/clan war phase and thus never outgrew it. When the Karsid Empire vanished the Klingons inherited all their technology (perhaps explaining why all Klingon ships are so rusty and broken-down).
I'd imagine 600 years of enslavement would leave any spiecies with a chip on thieir shoulder.
Yes, I know Trek novels arn't "canon", but quite frankly i couldn't care less
. I really liked it.
I'd imagine 600 years of enslavement would leave any spiecies with a chip on thieir shoulder.
Yes, I know Trek novels arn't "canon", but quite frankly i couldn't care less
. I really liked it.
The Klingons never made the slightest bit of sense to me (how did such idiots make it into space?) until i read the novel "Ishmael" by Barbara Hamberly (i read it a while ago so apologies if i get things a little skewed). In it they explain the Klingons were enslaved by the (now extinct) Karsid empire for 600 years. They were enslaved during their primative tribal/clan war phase and thus never outgrew it. When the Karsid Empire vanished the Klingons inherited all their technology (perhaps explaining why all Klingon ships are so rusty and broken-down).
I'd imagine 600 years of enslavement would leave any spiecies with a chip on thieir shoulder.
Yes, I know Trek novels arn't "canon", but quite frankly i couldn't care less
Actually, just replace Karsid with Hur'q and that could work well within established canon
True, but I thought the Cardassians had nabbed that comparison already
Hmmm? I'm sorry I was drinking some fine Kanar and planning the invasion of the Alpha Quadrant, what was it you said?
Slightly more seriously I have problems with seeing RL equivalence with fictional Empires (as I'm sure people have seen in my previous rants
).However I can see where people get the 'Fascistic' vibe from the Cardassians, the aggressive Imperialism,xenophobia and often extreme nationalism of the Cardassian state do have a lot in common with the standard definition of a Fascist body politic . To call them 'Nazis' is to use a specific label for one regime/Party in Earth's history and appeling it to an entire civilization which I think is not useful.
I do think that there is one obvious similarity that the CU shares with a Earth Nation that has gone unremarked thus far, namely with the USSR.
The first thing that they have in common is the naming of the state, in that both are Unions of either nations or worlds. The second comes from the political organization of said entity's. Both had a tripartite system of government divided between three competing factions, the Red Army/Central Command, The KGB/Obsidian Order and finally the Party/Depta council.
Finally both the SU and the CU have a strong collectivist bent which drove their societal makeup with the main difference being that the CU had five centuries of supremacy on Prime without facing any serious competition.
Anyway, I'm not sure if any of that made any sense at all but I think it's a liitle bit different than the 'Cardies iz Nazis' argument.
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Interesting post, Thor, and it got me to wondering. I agree that real-life parallels need to be used sparingly. Writers use Earth history when creating a history for an alien culture, of course - what other history have we got? But I'm also sure they cherry-pick different aspects of RL cultures, using those that are useful for purposes of the plot and for building an imaginary world and rejecting those that are not. Clearly the DS9 writers didn't base Cardassia entirely or even mostly on Nazi Germany - there are just too many things that are different.
Yet the Cardassian-Nazi comparison is used a lot, more often than the Cardassian culture warrants, I would say. Part of the reason, I expect, is simply the occupation of Bajor, which, to be fair, does resemble various Nazi occupations, but it also resembles other recent and infamous occupations, such as Japan's occupation of China.
But I think another reason is that smug, swaggering superiority that members of the Cardassian military so often displayed. Because some Cardassians, though certainly not all, claimed to believe, and in fact gave every evidence that they really did believe, that they were superior to Bajorans. More than that, they believed that this superiority gave them the right to occupy Bajor. That might be another reason for the Space Nazis rep that Cardassians sometimes have.
I don't see why Klingons should be compared to Nazis, though - that's even less valid than comparing Cardassians to them, I'd say. I hope I don't offend anyone when I say that anyone who thinks Klingons are compariable to Nazis doesn't know much about Nazis - either that or has fallen into the "All evil cultures are the same as Nazis" fallacy. They aren't - and in any case, as I've mentioned before, I don't consider the Klingon culture evil, though certain individual Klingons might fit that description.
Yet the Cardassian-Nazi comparison is used a lot, more often than the Cardassian culture warrants, I would say. Part of the reason, I expect, is simply the occupation of Bajor, which, to be fair, does resemble various Nazi occupations, but it also resembles other recent and infamous occupations, such as Japan's occupation of China.
But I think another reason is that smug, swaggering superiority that members of the Cardassian military so often displayed. Because some Cardassians, though certainly not all, claimed to believe, and in fact gave every evidence that they really did believe, that they were superior to Bajorans. More than that, they believed that this superiority gave them the right to occupy Bajor. That might be another reason for the Space Nazis rep that Cardassians sometimes have.
I don't see why Klingons should be compared to Nazis, though - that's even less valid than comparing Cardassians to them, I'd say. I hope I don't offend anyone when I say that anyone who thinks Klingons are compariable to Nazis doesn't know much about Nazis - either that or has fallen into the "All evil cultures are the same as Nazis" fallacy. They aren't - and in any case, as I've mentioned before, I don't consider the Klingon culture evil, though certain individual Klingons might fit that description.
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This is what would be the only reason for me to make the Cardassian=Nazi analogy, they have similar 'magnificent bastard gentlemen' sort of style going on.
This possibly thinking is what triggered my reply asking for clarification.
I always saw the Cardassians as a sort of combination of Russia and imperial Britain.
It's because some people haven't realized yet that Nazism is an ideology, rather than a race.
Well of course. They wear black uniforms, gloves and jackboots. Duh! They like to be all dressed up when they take their leave to go to the Military/Nazi Chic night at the local leather bar.
The Klingons, on the other hand, prefer the Hell's Angels look. That, too.
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The Next Generation, TUC, and DS9 showed us another side of the Empire, that they were more than 'bad guys' ,with a rich heritage. They made them into more than generic villains, though if you take someone like Kor-well played by the late John Colicos, even then there was something more...Kor relished a good fight..'it would have been GLORIOUS...' and clearly respected James Kirk as a fellow ship commander.In 'Sword Of Kahless' I think, he was regailing Worf and Dax I think and Worf mentioned Kirk, or he did...one book I have always loved is 'The Final Reflection' which gives a peek inside the Empire I found intruiging, with Captain Krenn and some of his crew, and you come away with a little different perspective on these people....
Until TNG barbarized them, the Klingons were the Russians.
As I remarked in the "USS Cortez" thread (and others have noted it, too, notably Myasistchev), there is a good analogy to European colonialism (particularly with the "White Man's Burden" attitude displayed by Dukat in particular). But you won't often see that comparison mentioned by DS9 writers, or fans - not as often as the Nazi one... perhaps because Nazis comparisons are so safe to use? Today, apart from a relatively small bunch of neo-Nazi freaks and Holocaust deniers despised by the mainstream, there is a universal agreement that nazism and fascism are evil - so mentioning them as an epitome of evil is going to raise minimal controversy possible, and you're easily going to get your point across that XY is EVIL if you just compare them to a Nazi.
Now, start a discussion about, say, colonialism, instead, and, as the Cortez thread has proved, you're opening a can of worms... Start a debate about the (alleged) evil of pretty much anyone/anything in history other than the Nazis, and you're going to get a lot of disagreement and controversy. (Of course - the thread had to be closed in the end.)
And, as I remarked, it is deeply ironic that DS9 focused so much on the evil of the Bajoran occupation, while having the Federation ships named after European colonialists... It has been brought up in the debate that the conquistadors, unlike the Nazis, were not doing anything evil by the standards of their time, their culture. Well, Cardassians were not doing anything evil by the standards of their culture, either. They also thought that they had the right to another world's natural resources, and the right to conquer and enslave te "inferior" people in order to exploit them. So?
Isn't that the Movie Nazis style, rather than the real life Nazis?
I'm liking the USSR/Cardassian comparison very much. I never thought about it, but the Cardassians have definitively a collectivist bend in their ideology, and an emphasis on service and hard working.
I agree, but also the Russians had their fair share of magnificent bastards.
Absolutely, but sadly for many, many people movies are the only time they are exposed to history.
Interesting, I was just thinking about this sort of thing watching DS9 last night...the idea that a race or nation can be evil, being supplanted with the idea that only individuals can be evil. I think you see some of that in the DS9 story arcs, that evil happens on the personal level, not the societal.
I'm not entirely sure if I accept the premise that evil cannot happen on a social level.
What I would argue is this: A given species is never going to be inherently evil. Nor can an entire culture be evil. But significant aspects of a culture -- such as the imperialist beliefs of the Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians -- may fairly be described as evil.
I'd argue that evil can happen on a societal level, that an entire society can choose to embrace so many values that I would describe as "evil" that, frankly, I think that the society may itself become fundamentally sick. But I still don't think that that society is going to therefore be evil per se.
I'd describe Cardassian, Romulan, and Klingon societies as being fundamentally sick because of their imperial doctrines; I'd also describe the Klingons as being far less sick than the others because their culture seems to gradually be adopting the Federation's values as they continue to be allied with the UFP.
None of these societies are fundamentally evil -- but all of them commit acts that I'd consider evil.
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