Where is the autism talk at?

[BillJ]

He's a Klingon raised by humans. That's quite enough to make him stand out as asocial in either a group of humans or klingons.

Which the Duras sisters even pick up on in Redemption when they see Worf uncomfortable hanging out in the bar with Kurn and his friends (and enemies). Although, later on DS9 Worf seemed to have no problem fitting in with Martok and his crew.

Well, they were in the middle of a civil war during "Redemption" and drinking and partying with the other side.

I think Worf was still adjusting to how Klingons party.

 

[eyeresist]

I think this thread has gone a little off-track due to a misunderstanding. I think it's obvious this thread should address characters who have autistic characteristics (or an autistic "flavour", if you like), not just those who have been officially diagnosed. This is especially important as there has been no overt acknowledgement of autism in Trek.

Many characters for whom social life is strange and difficult would fall into this category. We could call Vulcans an autistic race, at least based upon the classic portrayals. I imagine Spock was a great role model to many people on the spectrum. The later series had Odo, Seven and T'Pol. I'm not sure about Data - maybe because his oddities seem too "kid-friendly".

Which the Duras sisters even pick up on in Redemption when they see Worf uncomfortable hanging out in the bar with Kurn and his friends (and enemies). Although, later on DS9 Worf seemed to have no problem fitting in with Martok and his crew.

That's because he came to understand the behaviour rules, as a result of obsessively studying Klingon culture!

 

[JWPlatt]

Autism is a human condition. In the fiction, to know whether another race has such a condition you need to do a comparative pathology within the race. It would be unfair to judge Klingons or Vulcans by human standards, for example. But in the real world, you could determine whether certain aspects of a character display traits of the autism spectrum. It would certainly depend on the writer, actor and director and could change from show to show or even moment to moment. Symptoms are not biologically or systemically derived - it's performed - so there might be wild or highly selective variations when exhibited. The character's behavior could change from show to show, depending on the needs of the script. It's not like a real person who would be more consistently affected according to a diagnosed condition, unless a lot of work went into a character *specifically* to include them as an autistic character (e.g., Rainman). So you might have to specify the show and scene to point out certain behaviors as examples and then accept that they are not always true for the character.

 

[Autistoid]

There are probably thousands of characters throughout television history who have been written by dozens or hundreds of writers, each with his own interpretation of those characters, and each interpretation filtered through an actor's interpretation, that could be armchair diagnosed as having some sort of medical condition. It doesn't mean the character definitely has it.

I think this is a very good point. There is no singular creative vision behind the Worf character. He is an amalgamation of dozens of writers over a fifteen year period.

Autism test...

http://psychcentral.com/cgi-bin/autismquiz.cgi

I scored '23'.

Well my whole point is that it wasn't intentional.

His character was written as a proud warrior trope, which was later evolved into more a obsessive character who a rejected wherever he goes.



Anyway those kinds of test are not exactly useful they might give a hint, but they play in large part onto how you view yourself.

 

[Autistoid]

I think this thread has gone a little off-track due to a misunderstanding. I think it's obvious this thread should address characters who have autistic characteristics (or an autistic "flavour", if you like), not just those who have been officially diagnosed. This is especially important as there has been no overt acknowledgement of autism in Trek.

Well this has to be a baseline assumption from the start of the thread.

If you accept the premise that the aliens in ST are actually more human than typical starfleet officers .....

Many characters for whom social life is strange and difficult would fall into this category. We could call Vulcans an autistic race, at least based upon the classic portrayals. I imagine Spock was a great role model to many people on the spectrum. The later series had Odo, Seven and T'Pol. I'm not sure about Data - maybe because his oddities seem too "kid-friendly".

Yeah most of those characters are rather clear cut, with the exception of odo who may also have schizoid traits.

Which the Duras sisters even pick up on in Redemption when they see Worf uncomfortable hanging out in the bar with Kurn and his friends (and enemies). Although, later on DS9 Worf seemed to have no problem fitting in with Martok and his crew.

That's because he came to understand the behaviour rules, as a result of obsessively studying Klingon culture!

Yeah this is very obvious.

He gets by because he knows the rules, and more importantly he's a galactic hero in DS9.

What people are failing to understand is the difference between someone with social instincts and someone who is obsessed with social rules.

Compare worfs behaviour on a klingon vessel with rikers. Riker is able to quickly adapt to the order of things on vessels and is able to gain the respect of the entire crew.

Worf struggled for years to gain social acceptance among klingons and in part did it mostly by his service record. Despite the fact that he is exceptionally pedantic in his ability to work with klingons.

IT's almost ironic that by these supposedly unautistic behaviours he takes them on.

Need a wife, marry's the only non klingon that is more interested in klingon culture than he is, oh and by the way she's a person that is attracted to people with obtuse personalities.

But yeah worf goes to parties, ... but lets forget the part where he just uses being a klingon to avoid doing anything unexpected.

 

[Autistoid]

Autism is a human condition. In the fiction, to know whether another race has such a condition you need to do a comparative pathology within the race. It would be unfair to judge Klingons or Vulcans by human standards, for example.

Well I think that is gonna soon be technically untrue.

Autism isn't a true deviance from human behavioural patterns.

It's almost an entirely independent behavioural pattern.

It's comparable to being left and right handed.

Left handed people are not considered dysfunctional right handed people are in stead scene as a people with different orientation.

Just as you can have a right handed dog, chimpanzee, or Vulcan, you theoretically can have autistic dogs, Vulcans etc.

 

[BillJ]

Compare worfs behaviour on a klingon vessel with rikers. Riker is able to quickly adapt to the order of things on vessels and is able to gain the respect of the entire crew.

Worf struggled for years to gain social acceptance among klingons and in part did it mostly by his service record. Despite the fact that he is exceptionally pedantic in his ability to work with klingons.

But this circles back around to one of my points. Essentially, Klingons in real life aren't living up to Worf's expectations of what they are.

Worf's human parents likely acted as a filter, allowing positive aspects of his culture through while not allowing him to know about the negative aspects (like most parents).

 

[Autistoid]

Compare worfs behaviour on a klingon vessel with rikers. Riker is able to quickly adapt to the order of things on vessels and is able to gain the respect of the entire crew.

Worf struggled for years to gain social acceptance among klingons and in part did it mostly by his service record. Despite the fact that he is exceptionally pedantic in his ability to work with klingons.

But this circles back around to one of my points. Essentially, Klingons in real life aren't living up to Worf's expectations of what they are.

Worf's human parents likely acted as a filter, allowing positive aspects of his culture through while not allowing him to know about the negative aspects (like most parents).

Yes but he figures this out at like age 22, by age 34 he still just as unable to get past that filter.

Taking that long to adapt to something that is blatantly obvious is the whole dam point. Riker figured out there culture in a week, worf was never able to get it.

 

[Orphalesion]

Yes Spock, Worf, Seven, Odo and Spock are alienated from others because of them being members of alien cultures rather than because of a neurological reason. They are the confused foreigner.
Though I can see how someone in the spectrum might relate to them and the case could be made for Seven having autistic traits though they almost surely stem from whatever the Borg did to her brain rather than being there from birth.
Same with Bashir.

Barclay is (I would say) not autistic, he is just shy, possibly suffering from social phobia.

I do not think he was written to be that way, but the Doctor actually displays a lot of negative stereotypes associated with autism; he's rude, self-involved and childish with, at times, overwhelming and dangerous mood swings.

 

[BillJ]

Yes but he figures this out at like age 22, by age 34 he still just as unable to get past that filter.

But it really didn't take Worf that long to adapt. You have to figure his first adult contact with Klingons was at 25 in "Heart of Glory". He understood and played the Klingon political/honor game as well as anyone.

What I see here is you trying to diagnose Worf as autistic because he simply doesn't fall into line and has his own moral code that is a melding of both Federation and Klingon values.

It doesn't make him autistic because he has his own values. It doesn't make him autistic because he isn't as gregarious as other Klingons. He has some built in reserve because he was raised by humans. Human social norms and Klingon social norms are on the opposite ends of the scale and Worf tried to balance both.

Taking that long to adapt to something that is blatantly obvious is the whole dam point. Riker figured out there culture in a week, worf was never able to get it.

But Riker is suppose to be the best of the best of the best. He is suppose to be James T. Kirk.

 

[HIjol]

Hi, Autistoid. I have been an Early Childhood and Elementary School teacher for the past 20 years, and I have had the challenge and great pleasure and success of teaching children on the Autism Spectrum. As I am sure you are aware, diagnosing Autism is a very complicated and sometimes drawn-out process. Eliminating other factors and conditions can be difficult, and I know you also realize how important is to do so, in order to give as accurate a diagnosis as possible. I find your observations on the (mostly) beloved Star Trek fictional characters mentioned very interesting. Aside from the fact that all of the characters are fictional and, by my count 4 or 5 are not human, in order for those you list to be on the Spectrum, there would have to be such a thing as ExoHuman Autism, and all of the characters would have had to have been created, conceived and written with Autistic traits. Melakon, BillJ, sojourner and others, I believe, have eluded to this necessity.

I also am very gratified to note that you have absolutely no trouble with imagining and putting your mind in the "mind" of others, and that you easily discuss and clearly express your feelings regarding fictional and abstract concepts. Two things that can be difficult, bordering on impossible, for some who have been identified.

I think you had some good teachers and some quality support in your educational life, and I am very glad for you. Re-examine those crew members you mentioned before, and see if it is possible that the writers and creators ascribed the personalities, backstories and character traits for other, larger reasons related to the synergy of the show/crew/relationship chemistry.

HIjol

 

[Autistoid]

Melakon[/B], BillJ, sojourner and others, I believe, have eluded to this necessity.

Well don't take this the wrong way.

I am at no point suggesting that gene rodenberry thought in 1965 with almost no knowledge of autism decided to make some of his characters fit the scientific definition of autism.

However by accident its appears by trying to make 2 dimensional characters more dynamic they have inadvertently created characters that fit into the way of thinking.

Keeping in mind most of the time aliens are not aliens for the sake of being alien but because they are used as allegory.



Worf was the standard honorable warrior, that was developed to be the outsider, when klingon episodes became more common he was later developed to be an outsider even among his own people.

That being said Worf and Odo are more complicated.

However with data, spock, seven, tpol and bashir(backstory included) it seems that it is far more obvious.

 

[JWPlatt]

It's comparable to being left and right handed.

Let's go with that for the moment. An entire alien race may be entirely such a subset of one particular trait in human existence. Left-handed, gay, autistic, blonde, and so forth. Autism may be totally absent from the race, or an exclusive trait. I would class some of the more "creative" alien races in Star Trek lore as singularly affected by one thing or another just to make them different. That race might not take kindly to being thought of as bizarre simply because left-handedness or autism is not present in their race. You need to consider it within the race.

...for those you list to be on the Spectrum, there would have to be such a thing as ExoHuman Autism, and all of the characters would have had to have been created, conceived and written with Autistic traits.

Mostly correct, I believe. Yes, exohuman autism is necessary in the fiction, but there can be unintended performances either in the writing, direction, or acting in the real production.

 

[Karzak]

He's a Klingon raised by humans. That's quite enough to make him stand out as asocial in either a group of humans or klingons.

Which the Duras sisters even pick up on in Redemption when they see Worf uncomfortable hanging out in the bar with Kurn and his friends (and enemies). Although, later on DS9 Worf seemed to have no problem fitting in with Martok and his crew.

Well, they were in the middle of a civil war during "Redemption" and drinking and partying with the other side.

I think Worf was still adjusting to how Klingons party.

Spoiler: About that…

 

[T'Girl]

However when it's time to be spontaneous, make a joke, laugh, etc he's lacking.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

Will I haven't read all of the arguments on this thread yet, but I would definitely agree there are good parallels with Data and Aspergers/high functioning autism. In particular is the desire to fit in with "normal" society, but not quite getting it on an intuitive/emotional level and therefore needing to learn and modify behaviour on an conscious level instead.

I wouldn't class Spock or any of the others mentioned in quite the same way.

 

[Autistoid]

However when it's time to be spontaneous, make a joke, laugh, etc he's lacking.

It's not that autistic people don't have humour it's that they are less able to share it.

Worfs humour is very much in that realm much of the time, either awkwardly timed or involving only one party laughing.

 

[Isolinear]

Tam Elbrun from 'Tin Man' is definitely autistic.

From Tin Man: Crusher, Troi and Picard discuss Elbrun:

CRUSHER: Well, according to his medical records and psych profile, he's very high on the ESP scale. A sort of prodigy.
PICARD: A prodigy? In what sense?
TROI: Well, in most Betazoids our telepathic gifts develop at adolescence.
PICARD: You mean you're not born reading minds?
TROI: No. Except for some reason that no one understands, occasionally a Betazoid child is born different.
PICARD: How different?
CRUSHER: Born with his telepathic abilities switched on.
TROI: Most Betazoids born like that never lead a normal life.
CRUSHER: The noise of other people's thoughts and feelings must be overwhelming, incomprehensible, especially to a child.
TROI: And painful. Early diagnosis and special training did help Tam adjust, but he has some problems.
PICARD: You mentioned a hospitalisation.
TROI: For stress. Repeatedly, throughout his life.
CRUSHER: I always wonder what holds one person together through that kind of struggle, while another goes under?
PICARD: Yes, well, he's evidently done more than hold together. He's the indispensable man. The Federation's finest specialist in communication with unknown life forms.
CRUSHER: The more unusual a life form is, the better he likes it. His personnel file shows that he's gravitated toward assignments that isolate him from other humanoids.

Can't be any clearer than this. If he's not autistic then Soren from 'The Outcast' wasn't gay.

 

[Autistoid]

Tam Elbrun from 'Tin Man' is definitely autistic.

From Tin Man: Crusher, Troi and Picard discuss Elbrun:

CRUSHER: Well, according to his medical records and psych profile, he's very high on the ESP scale. A sort of prodigy.
PICARD: A prodigy? In what sense?
TROI: Well, in most Betazoids our telepathic gifts develop at adolescence.
PICARD: You mean you're not born reading minds?
TROI: No. Except for some reason that no one understands, occasionally a Betazoid child is born different.
PICARD: How different?
CRUSHER: Born with his telepathic abilities switched on.
TROI: Most Betazoids born like that never lead a normal life.
CRUSHER: The noise of other people's thoughts and feelings must be overwhelming, incomprehensible, especially to a child.
TROI: And painful. Early diagnosis and special training did help Tam adjust, but he has some problems.
PICARD: You mentioned a hospitalisation.
TROI: For stress. Repeatedly, throughout his life.
CRUSHER: I always wonder what holds one person together through that kind of struggle, while another goes under?
PICARD: Yes, well, he's evidently done more than hold together. He's the indispensable man. The Federation's finest specialist in communication with unknown life forms.
CRUSHER: The more unusual a life form is, the better he likes it. His personnel file shows that he's gravitated toward assignments that isolate him from other humanoids.

Can't be any clearer than this. If he's not autistic then Soren from 'The Outcast' wasn't gay.

He is a high high candidate, albeit a very ironic one.

It's a theory that many autistic people are super empathic, however due to their inability to sort through the noise, they are blinded by emotion.

That being said it's a theory that isn't that well understood.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

I just don't see how Worf is autistic. I'm also not sure where I see that he was socially awkward.

Agreed. He grew up trapped between cultures, which would be difficult for anyone. I never had a problem with his gravitating toward Klingon culture despite his being raised on Earth, as said culture is part of his heritage. His strict sense of right and wrong is likely a by-product of his adherence to Klingon culture, not a psychological disorder.

Given what Worf achieved in his career (senior officer on the Federation flagship) and in his personal life (married to a beautiful woman who could've had anyone she wanted), I've a hard time seeing autism as well.

--Sran