When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Ragitsu, Nov 17, 2021.

  1. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Consider that Captain J. should have thrown B'Elanna in the brig, but instead she made her chief engineer because of her superior skill level. That is not a universally popular decision by any means (I can just imagine how the rest of the Starfleet engineering staff felt about it, seeing their colleague get booted in favor of someone they likely saw as a borderline psycho), but it indicates Janeway's overall mindset. If any of her senior staff had been deficient, it's safe to assume that she would have found someone who wasn't.
     
  2. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    He was once Pete Durst; now, he is Vidiianwurst.
     
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  3. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The resultant popularity factor of having survived Tour-de-Delta is worth considering; later in life, that reputation may automatically garner a bit of clout (not unlike a war hero who tries their hand at politics and discovers that they've won a specific demographic without lifting so much as a finger).
     
  4. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That was awesome, in a horrible sort of way. :techman:

    Alas, there is no way to know.
     
  5. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I've been considering watching Picard and Janeway's reprimands (Wesley and Riker for Picard / Harry and Tom for Janeway) back-to-back to see if Janeway was indeed harsher or if her reputation as a something of a martinet is undeserved.
     
  6. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I wasn't aware that there was a sense that Janeway was harsher in this particular regard...
     
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  7. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The problem is weighing the offense. The fact that she dropped the hammer on Tom is fine, considering that he stole a shuttle and was getting ready to destroy an installation with it. But all Harry did was get down with an alien, something most Trek characters did without penalty (including Janeway herself, in "Workforce"). He should have gotten off way lighter than a potentially career-destroying reprimand. And by comparison, B'Elanna violently assaulted a superior officer, and not only wasn't reprimanded at all, but she got a @$#*!-ing promotion for it!
     
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  8. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Then there's the fallout, or lack thereof, from "Prime Factors", where they almost destroyed the ship after violating not just the PD but Janeway's explicit orders.
     
  9. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Wesley... Picard was reasonable, and it ultimately got him to tell the truth.

    If you're referring to Riker in "The Pegasus", Picard did acknowledge Riker had orders from a more superior officer, but he sternly said he would have to reexamine his position if Riker didn't put the lives of the ship first. Which he did when he ousted Pressman.

    I don't think Picard was unfair in his admonishings of any of his crew, including Worf in "Reunion". He did put a reprimand on his record because he took off his communicator and killed Duras, but I think that was fair given that the incident directly interfered in the internal matters of the Klingon Empire.

    I will also add that I applaud Picard for not ordering Worf to provide blood to the Romulan in "The Enemy". He asked and pleaded, but in the end, he upheld his officer's right of choice. Definitely a high respect moment for him.


    Janeway... with Tom, that was understandable. However, Chakotay basically did the same thing in "MANEUVERS"... circumvented ship security and stole a shuttle on a personal mission to get the transporter piece back. While it was to get back something that was stolen vs. getting ready to destroy another world's reclamator, both involved very similat circumstances... going against orders and theft.

    Janeway's reaction with Harry was off the rails, though.
     
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  10. Dee1891

    Dee1891 Captain Captain

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    Janeway had not only admonished Chakotay, but also wrote him up in her report. She could have replaced him with Tuvok, but that action would have caused a problem with the Maquis crew members, especially that early in the journey. Nor did she place him in the Brig, which she did with Tom. Janeway's reaction to Harry was "off the rails", because the latter became openly confrontational on the Bridge, which is a big no-no; and he had disobeyed her first order by connecting with Tal again. I believe her punishment of Tom was a lot tougher for a certain reason. A few years ago, a member from another Star Trek discussion board had hinted like most parents or authority figures, Janeway punished those with what she believed possessed the most potential. It is possible that she believed that Tom Paris had the most potential to be a successful Starfleet officer. He was the son of one of Janeway's mentors and also what Chakotay sometimes called him - her "reclamation project". Janeway wanted to ensure Tom would live up to that potential. Perhaps she could succeed where Admiral Paris had failed. I can recall Sisko treating Worf in a similar manner when the latter made a mistake. Sisko was always tougher on Worf than either Picard or Riker. Then again, Sisko thought Worf was command material.
     
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  11. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Compare with this dialog in the Disease:

    JANEWAY: And the reprimand still stands. I've been thinking about how I reacted to your relationship with Tal.
    KIM: You reacted like any Captain would.
    JANEWAY: Probably. But I can't help wondering if my response would have been the same if it had been, say, Tom Paris instead of you. Oh don't get me wrong, I still would have been angry and disappointed, but I wouldn't have been surprised.
    KIM: Because Ensign Kim doesn't break the rules.
    JANEWAY: The truth is, Harry, I think about you differently than the rest of the crew. Which isn't to suggest that I don't care deeply about each of them. You came to me fresh out of the Academy, wide-eyed with excitement about your first deep space assignment. From that first day, I've always felt more protective of you than the others.
    KIM: I appreciate that. But that was five years ago. I've changed.
    JANEWAY: Yes, you have.
    KIM: Maybe I'm not the perfect officer anymore.
    JANEWAY: Maybe not. But you're a better man.

    Also, Kim didn't get that formal reprimand for that confrontation on the bridge. Not even for not obeying the Captain's orders to break off the relationship. The reprimand came much earlier than that; it was given the moment Janeway noted he'd broken the regulations in the first place. She gave him the reprimand and then ordered him to break off the relation. Which regulation? Apparently this one:

    All Starfleet personnel must obtain authorisation from their C.O. as well as clearance from their Medical Officer before initiating an intimate relationship with an alien species.

    Somehow I find it hard to believe that Paris did this every single time when he met a cutie. Or Chakotay. Who asks the captain to reconsider Harry's reprimand, by the way. After which she even admits that 'it seems a little extreme, but I wanted to leave a lasting impression'.

    A formal reprimand does just that, yes. Leaving a lasting impression. On all others who read his record. It isn't necessarily the best way to get through to Harry, who just might become bitter. I would have said let him scrub the plasma conduits for a week if you feel his offense merits that (and even that would have been disproportionate, given how this was never an issue with others), but keep it in the family. It's not as if he led an uprising on the ship against Janeway or some such thing.

    I think it is just one of those instances where the scriptwriters wanted to create drama, but did so in the wrong way, and damaged the character of Janeway in the process.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2022
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  12. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    They did that a lot. There's a reason why people often describe Janeway as "schizophrenic", and it's not because she heard voices.

    Between that and seven years as an ensign... that's a one-two punch that could ruin any Starfleet career.

    Agreed completely.

    And he was right, especially given that Harry was under alien influence. If Janeway herself were judged by the same harsh standards, she would probably have been relieved of command for that little stunt she pulled at the end of "Scientific Method".
     
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  13. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Chakotay got a reprimand, yes, but he wasn't lowered a rank in the process. Though the curcumstances with the Maquis is a fair difference.

    But Kim had the reprimand before his outburst on the bridge and the second time he saw Tal. So it was still an off the rails response.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2022
  14. Summer Solstice

    Summer Solstice Captain Captain

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    The best reprimand is in Survival Instinct for the bar fight that Tom and Harry started.

    I've probably forgotten someone, but I don't remember Paris dating anyone who wasn't in the Voyager crew. I agree with Dee1891 about it being difficult for Janeway to do much about Chakotay's behaviour early in the show. Putting Tom into solitary confinement seemed unusually harsh (it's the only time that jumped out at me) but technically Tom was on parole at that point and Janeway may have wanted to make sure that Tom didn't go back to prison in the Alpha Quadrant. Seven and the EMH got away with a lot.
     
  15. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    There's first-season Lidell (Ex Post Facto). We never know quite how close Paris came to her. When Janeway asks it, he first dodges the question 'their marriage was over', and after that says: 'nothing happened. Well, almost nothing' - which isn't a clear-cut answer either. I'm guessing though that he was just flirting.

    Then there's Alice. Not a woman, but a shuttle. But one that seduced him, and completely doped his brain and as such was as dangerous as any female of an unknown alien species. Not a technical infraction though. Unless you count alien AI as an alien species, and the neural interface could certainly be called intimate.

    Then there's Rain Robinson. Only flirting perhaps but she was human of course so that wouldn't have been an infraction either.

    After S3, Tom was pretty much off the market..

    So I guess you are right, and that he actually didn't.

    The rule as stated sounds a bit dumb anyway. It says 'alien species' without any other qualification. Why would a Vulcan lover be a problem, but a human from the other side of the galaxy -abducted by Borg or Brinori- living on an unknown planet with an unknown culture and unknown pathogens be fine?
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2022
  16. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    We can't really count Janeway doing it, because her memories were altered in "WORKFORCE".

    I don't think she had sex with Gath ("PRIME FACTORS") or Kashyk ("COUNTERPOINT"), so I guess she technically didn't break protocol there, either.

    Let's look at the list of ones who did...

    Kirk - Definitely, with several aliens. Though it certainly is possible such a regulation didn't exist in his time.

    Spock - Zarabeth. Same stipulation as Kirk, but with the added issue of him being not in his right mind.

    McCoy - Natira. Same stipulation as Kirk.

    Riker - Beata in "Angel One", though considering she was the leader of that world, and good relations were a prime consideration, a possible pass? Etania, though he was on leave at the time ("The Game"). Soran... clearly a violation.

    Jadzia - "MERIDIAN", though that was a pretty unusual situation.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2022
  17. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm probably leaving out a whole bunch, but here's my analysis of selected punishments for assorted actions by crew, and what I would consider appropriate.

    Torres: Assaulting a superior officer.
    Given: Nothing.
    Appropriate: A week in the brig, minimum.

    Tuvok/Torres: "Borrowing" technology from a friendly race.
    Given: A severe tongue-lashing.
    Appropriate: Because they came clean about it, I'll say this was reasonable. But it was pushing it.

    Neelix: Assorted subterfuge in "Fair Trade".
    Given: Two weeks scrubbing the deuterium manifolds.
    Appropriate: What he got. Though considering what he was expecting, it's debatable whether Neelix considered this to be punishment at all.

    Tom: Theft of a shuttle, attempt to destroy infrastructure, seriously screwing with the Prime Directive.
    Given: Reduction in rank, 30 days solitary confinement.
    Appropriate: What he got, without the "solitary" part. Solitary confinement is considered to be cruel and unusual punishment.

    Harry: Banging an alien female.
    Given: Formal reprimand, probable implications already stated.
    Appropriate: Considering the crap Tuvok and B'Elanna got away with, and that they weren't under alien influence... a good tongue-lashing would have been quite sufficient.
     
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  18. Dee1891

    Dee1891 Captain Captain

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    I never said that Kim was officially reprimanded for the confrontation on the Bridge. I hinted that Janeway's anger toward him was pretty stringent, due to the confrontation. But he was only officially reprimanded for having sex with Tal.

    But Janeway is a woman, unlike other Starfleet captains like Kirk, Picard, Sisko and Archer. And because she is a woman, she has no business being the show's main leading character and the commander of the U.S.S. Voyager in the eyes of many. Because I believe that is what this is really about. You can argue differently. But considering many of the fans' reluctance to criticize the male leads on the same level as Janeway or even Michael Burnham, I find these arguments that it isn't about sexism rather petty and hard to accept.
     
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  19. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You guys have already covered what I had to say, but, yes...in the aggregate of opinions, Picard chewing out Wesley in "The First Duty" was seen as a warranted bit of disapproval that would help the boy to grow and his castigating of Riker's reticence/reluctance was viewed as reasonable given their intimate working history (some folks mention that Picard was acting slightly unreasonable in light of the fact that Riker was ordered to keep quiet by an Admiral, but they seem to be a minority view). On the other hand, folks seem to think Janeway's punishment of Tom was overly harsh (this goes back to the debate of just what constitutes "solitary confinement" in Starfleet) and her tongue-lashing of Harry largely ignored the fact that he was addled by the effects of that sex fever.
     
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  20. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You're back to this again? Seriously? Not one person... not a single one... mentioned Janeway's gender. In fact, no one has mentioned punishments from Kirk, Burnham, Sisko, or Archer. Sisko only received a passing reference. Hell, only Picard was given any kind of breakdown. I even agreed with you about Chakotay's reprimand and scenario. So comparing one captain to another on similar scenarios is not reasonable, whatever the gender? That's very closed-minded, and clearly you have your mind made up without bothering to hear anything else.

    And by the way, in the interest of honest discussion and being fair to everyone...

    I don't give a damn what impression you get from some fans' reaction about Janeway or not. You don't put words or motivations to someone's posts or breakdown of opinions like that unless they actually have said something of that nature. Making assumptions like that, putting words and motivations to other views without reason, or throwing around words like sexism or racism is PRECISELY THE PROBLEM AND REASON WHY PEOPLE CAN'T HAVE ANY ACTUAL DISCUSSION!
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2022