When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Ragitsu, Nov 17, 2021.

  1. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Carey was so unimportant a character, rewriting him as single would have been a simple matter... but not necessary. The "Learning Curve" Maquis departing would be expected, but having Carey go (true-blue Starfleet, with people to return to, and the man Janeway chose as chief engineer)... that's almost a betrayal, especially if it comes out of nowhere.

    In "No Small Parts", Peanut Hamper proves unexpectedly to be a complete jerk, and that's regarded as one of the show's best ironic moments. So why can't Carey?
     
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  2. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    [​IMG]

    We need to get Mirror Janeway and this guy in the same room.
     
  3. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Although I'm fine with the women of SNW, I agree that Kathryn Janeway was a truly special character, one no one could have replaced.

    Great picture, too.
     
  4. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Kira Nerys for me, but different strokes for different folks.
     
  5. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Many strokes.
     
  6. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In general, hatred for any character (unless we're dealing with bigots) really flows from an action of theirs, which is more likely to repose in writers/producers decisions.

    One of my most hated Janeway scenes lies in "Nightingale", when a certain character finally reminds her that his Starfleet career has been adversely affected by their circumstances. Rather than sympathize or try to make things right, Janeway gets downright accusatory, forcing him to tell her what she wants to hear. I'm fairly certain that at the end of Season 6, when Tom got re-promoted, there were a lot of angry letters to the effect of why him and not Harry? The writers, insistent on holding to this nasty inside joke like an toddler clinging fiercely to someone else's toy, produced this scene to justify their actions. The fact that it made Janeway look tyrannical and unsympathetic was just collateral.
     
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  7. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Getting cooch or getting command; he was screwed either way.
     
  8. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Make no mistake, I like both him and Janeway, but both had their character assassination moments. Janeway had the scene I described, plus Tuvix, plus her resorting to torture in "Equinox". But look at Harry in "Resolutions". He was acting like a spoiled nine-year-old instead of a trained Starfleet officer and department head.

    Regarding Tuvix, i remember one person saying that they just couldn't like Janeway after what she did there. While I don't think the "Janeway hatred" (what there was of it) has just one point of origin, it certainly gathered steam there.
     
  9. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Operations is a department that needs one person at a time and there are three shifts a day, and no one handles operations during the night shift. The night shift on the bridge is two people, and I'm not even certain that Swing Shift is a thing on Voyager.

    So the Operations Staff is probably 3 or four people, including Kim, and as department head Kim has to allocate which day of the week each of these people have to work.

    Any Starfleet graduate, can do every job on a Star Ship, one day out of the Academy.
     
  10. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In this topic, justification is irrelevant (though I may bring that one up in the proper topic at some point ;)). While certainly Janeway gets the stamp of disapproval from some people for assorted reasons (including something as minor as not liking her voice), I think that a lot of so-called "hate" is more just "acknowledging that Janeway stepped in it from time to time" (God knows I do, and Janeway is one of my favorite captains). And when you google Janeway's worst decisions, Harry's rank is often on the list (Trekculture even put it at #1).
     
  11. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It must be of some import, given that most of the 14 department heads don't attend senior staff meetings... but Operations does.

    What's also odd was that Pete Durst was an operations officer... why wasn't he in charge of the department, at least while he was alive?
     
  12. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^Presumably because rank doesn't override senior staff determinations by the captain, just as if Kim is manning the conn then everyone should be deferring to him.

    Now why Kim was senior staff to begin, especially once the ship is in the DQ, is something of a mystery.
     
  13. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It's possible that Durst was replacing someone of a lower rank who died?

    He may have already been a section head, and just worked in Operations whenever Harry was a man down?
     
  14. Dee1891

    Dee1891 Captain Captain

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    Best qualified in terms of skill. I noticed that Janeway tend to appoint those who are the best skilled as part of her senior staff.
     
  15. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And then ruin their Starfleet career by not promoting them... :shrug:
     
  16. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Given what we saw of Kim, I question whether he was really "best skilled" within his department.
     
  17. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Disagreed. Despite Harry's young age and inexperience (and occasional cluelessness), I saw only competence in how he did his job. And, he was the go-to guy when someone needed something built from the ground up.
     
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  18. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    B'Elanna was promoted above Carey.

    Dekker was demoted below Kirk, who himself was demoted to do the job.

    Department Heading is about HR, not being the chosen one.
     
  19. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Kirk wasn't demoted in TMP. He was given command of the Enterprise to deal with V'Ger. It wasn't until the end of TVH that he was demoted.
     
  20. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Being senior staff isn't just about how well you can do the operational aspects of your job, it's also about how well you can handle being the leader of a team, and I never got the sense that Kim was particularly good at that, especially in circumstances where he was placed in command.