When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

Guess his own name got sucked out a bit. Fitting.

 

Watched that episode last night. It didn't suck.

I actually idly wonder what Janeway would have done in that same situation...

 

Well let’s see she immediately declared herself dictator over everyone reguardkess there weren’t signed up to her military and then made bad decisions strolling around the delta quadrant like she was looking for a new shirt. She has control issues and doesn’t justify being in command other than a handful of decisions and the rest of them just makes her a authoritarian with pooor decision skills

 

If anything, Chakotay would be just as responsible, given that he was the one who instructed his crew to join the space military.

Women shopping analogy. Charming.

She's the captain of Voyager. That is justification enough, until and unless she does something that rates being relieved.

Uhhh...

 

The Doctor tried to relieve her of command once and she turned him off.

Chakotay questioned her right to torture and almost murder a Starfleet officer, and he was sent to his room.

Despite replication and no money, the first time we meet Beverly Crusher, she is shopping, although maybe the reason we barely ever saw Kathy out of Uniform is that she did need a new shirt.

"Shirt" feels neutral, but if it had been "buy a new dress" I would have been with you on sexism.

 

That's why I added the bit about "until and unless she does something that rates being relieved." Because yes, there were times when Chakotay and/or Tuvok could have done just that and no Starfleet tribunal would question their decision. But the same could have been said of nearly every Starfleet captain we've seen.

 

Yeah. Janeway is not alone and I lover commentary about Kirk and company being tossed out of Starfleet if they had served at the same time as her. It's an interesting juxtaposition. Unfortunately, the writing didn't serve her always so well.

 

There lies the problem. Look at the Janeway I just saw in "The Swarm", who said to basically bugger Starfleet rules, we're going through their territory to save 15 months", versus the buttoned up Janeway who blasted Tuvok and Torres for trying to save them 35 years.

Or the Janeway who coldbloodedly executed Tuvix to bring back Tuvok and Neelix, but put the entire ship at risk just because the EMH was whining about having a problematic memory deleted.

Kate Mulgrew is a brilliant actress and Janeway was a great character. But... you see the problem, I expect.

 

Yes, those were inconsistent aspects to her behavior... but on the large throughout VOY journey, Janeway tried sticking to SF protocol... so the main issue here is her decision to encroach on a territory of another species willingly (aka the Swarm episode).

I'm actually trying to think if there's ANY way to sanction Janeway's decision to cross through Swarm space. In the episode, I do think she describes them as 'bullies' (but this is mainly based on Neelix's reports that no other ships have ever been heard from again who tried similar things)... so, no I'm honestly drawing a blank here in justifying Janeway's actions.

Her decision to blast Tuvok and Torres was actually the correct one because this was upholding to SF regulations... and also because the trajector technology was being traded essentially via black market (meaning, it wasn't legal, and not something SF would sanction).

Plus, even if the technology failed, it was still viable for study. The Borg were able to make it work, so there's no reason to think VOY crew (or SF) couldn't eventually find a workaround as well.

Her decision to execute Tuvix was certainly a controversial one... and one I'm not sure can be justified since UFP and SF are against execution. This is further compounded by the premise that Suder was confined to quarters and given a chance to be rehabilitated after killing a crewmember.

At any rate, I would imagine that this was an 'impossible decision' which Janeway as a character made because for the purpose of the series, Tuvok and Neelix were still main characters... not Tuvix.
Otherwise, if that were actual real life, Janeway would have probably never made that decision.

As for the EMH's memory being deleted... meh, this wasn't really putting the ship in danger. Not really. And this had more to do with Janeway seeing the doctor as more than just the EMH... which was inconsistent with the fact that she already started doing this well before this episode.
Maybe this was one decision that was initially made because she and the crew saw no other way to deal with the problem that occurred at the time... but once it occurred again, and 7 prompted Janeway to allow the EMH to try and deal with the experience... they gave time for this situation to resolve itself.

My only issue with this is that the crew should have done this the first time around... but it also showed that despite the crew accepting the doctor as part of the crew, he wasn't seen necessarily as a 'person' quite yet I suppose... or at least, not by Janeway.

Indeed. But, to me it seemed that Janeway did seem more consistent throughout the series than not (aka, she tried adhering to SF protocols as much as she could given the circumstances).

It wasn't until the last couple of seasons that she was maybe 'bending' the rules of diplomacy and some protocols a bit more (but other SF captains did so too)... but I suppose that after her initial communication with SF in Season 4, and subsequent communicasions via Pathfinder, they had to accept at the time that Janeway had to make certain decisions and weighted most other options, and the quickest way to deal with it was to perhaps give her some more 'leeway' when it comes to decision making... and besides, there was no way for SF to bring her in or reprimand her at the time... so on the whole, I guess they looked at her overall decision making (which was in line with SF protocol anyway)... and the fact she shared ALL of her DQ accounts with SF openly and was willing to take on the consequences... so I guess a few 'outliers' were tolerated (after all, she didn't cause genocide, went on a killing spree, or violated laws of other cultures every other week - most of her behavior was in line with SF protocol).

 

101/2 Caretaker Tuvok says "helping the Ocampa is breaking the Prime Directive." Janeway replies "Is it?" Janeway helps the Ocampa "barely" but emphatically defies General Order One. The Ocampa starve to death resorting to cannibalism when there city runs out of power in 5 years, until there's none of them left, and then the Kazon get their water anyway.

103 Janeway promotes Torres for breaking Carey's nose.

201, The 37s. Janeway meets 5 frozen people from 1937, and breaks the prime directive telling these people about aliens and Warp. Turns out the 37s were "owned" by the "aliens" who controlled that planet. Janeway invaded the planet and shot up the place, then stole their shit, which only incidentally happened to be people.

202. Initiations. Janeway let Chakotay borrow a shuttle to practice his religion. Starfleet doesn't let their soldiers participate in morally bankrupt confidence scams, just like Tuvok won't let the Bajoran's wear their earrings.

301. Basics part 2. Janeway and Tuvok start sharpening spears to dominate a planet of savages who are picking on her because she does not know how to be neighborly.

302. Flashback. Janeway meets a 5 thousand year old alien, and tries to kill it because she created a medical catastrophe where it's either him or her, and then picks her own life over an an innocent who was minding their own business inside Tuvok.

401. Scorpion II. Nacheyev posted orders to shoot the Borg on sight 6 years earlier. Janeway offers comfort and aid to the Borg in indifference to that order.

402. The Gift. Janeway vivisects and mutilates an alien against her will, surgically extracting the essence of her identity because she doesn't respect a woman's right to control their own body.

501. Night. Janeway tries to force recycling technology on to the Malon who are not interested in averting the ecological collapse of local space because it gets in the way of business. If the Malon had taken the tech, he would have just used it an unexpected yet probably selfish ways to make money whether or not it ended or enbiggened the spread of antimatter pollution. Prime directive violation.

502. Drone. This is why the mobile emitter should have been destroyed 2 years ago. They don't understands it, and don't understand how their enemies can use that weird future tech to create WMDs if she is shit at keeping her goodies close to her chest.

601 Equinox II. Janeway agrees to be a bag man who is going to feed Ransom to the space dolphins. Tortures Noah Lessing too.

602. Survival Instincts. All Borg are liars. Standing orders from Nacheyev. Anika should have been a human head in a jar in a wheel chair frustratedly seeking revenge impotently.

701. Unimartrix Zero II. Janeway murdered over a hundred thousand Borg when playing Chicken with the queen. Meanwhile stealing transwarp coils is just as bad a break to the prime directive as giving Holomatrices to the Hirogen. She artificially altered the development of her own culture.

702. Imperfection. Janeway Stole Borg tech from aliens who were salvaging a cube because they went away for 10 minutes to have a piss. Maybe they should have dropped a buoy, but that would have only alerted pirates, and they would have lost their prize.

 

That was appalling, especially in light of how Kim was treated.

It also short circuited what could have been a pretty good story arc for B'Elanna's character.

Nah... the Ocampa are able to make their power last through conservation, and continuous reduction of need. Their population halves itself every four years, remember?

Starfleet SHOULD let Bajorans wear their earrings. And when you consider that the Trek universe features souls, godlike beings, and 101 Ways to Resurrect the Dead, one does wonder why a person who opposes religion would enjoy it.

There is this little thing called self-defense. Those aren't TV remotes on your typical away team's hips after all.

Yeah. Bad idea.

And the Borg didn't?

And her decision to stop the Malon from slaughtering the aliens in the void was... unfair opposition to modern capitalism?

If Chakotay had had any balls at all, he'd have chucked her in the brig for that.

Why not a "Menagerie" Beep Chair?

You have repeatedly stated that the Federation is effectively at war with the Borg. Invading enemy ships and taking their stuff is a legitimate act of war, as long as you don't rape, pillage, or murder noncombatants.

 

Janeway was simply restoring balance to that part of the quadrant which the Caretaker upset with his meddling in the first place.
Also, there was no way for Janeway to guarantee the destruction of the Array without VOY remaining behind.
Plus there was no guarantee that the Kazon would invade the Ocampa after that. For all we know they may have lost interest in that part of space... and to be fair they should have because you can find water in asteroids in massive quantities - the Kazon are just stupid.

Torres was reprimanded for what she did and her promotion to chief engineer was warranted on the premise she was a better engineer than Carey... though personally, I would have preferred her maybe serving under Carrey for a bit, then him dying in service perhaps and Torres taking his place.

PD doesn't seem to apply to humans. Also the alternative was leaving them in stasis, and the crew thought they were doing this because someone was in distress.
Janeway never invaded the planet or shot up the place. The native humans shot up the place. Janeway merely sat VOY down on solid ground to investigate and there was no way for them to know of other lifesigns due to sensors being blocked.

That one was odd (allowing Chakotay to use a shuttle for personal use in the midst of being surrounded by Kazon was pretty much poor judgment)... but she wasn't breaking any rules (more like health and safety issue). SF is tolerant about religious practices, but there's a limit to how far things will be allowed on a starship.
There's also a difference between wearing an earring and practicing personal spiritual aspects in private.
I agree though Chakotay should have been able to do his thing in the privacy of his quarters though (which he did most of the time anyway).

Self-preservation and matter of survival. SF IS allowed to defend itself. She wasn't being unneighbourly... the Kazon dumped the crew on that backwater planet to begin with and the natives (not knowing any better) reacted out of mixture of curiousity and fear.
In the end, they DID resolve their differences.

You forget that it was a virus (not a sentient lifeform) and it was killing Tuvok.

Oh yes, Janeway should have started shooting at the Borg from a single ship whilst being surrounded by cubes and a species that was more powerful than the Collective and happened to have threatened to purge the ENTIRE galaxy.
She didn't offer comfort to the Borg... and the only aid she provided was in the form of creating a weapon to deter 8472 and force them to withdraw. The Borg never got that technology.

Seven wasn't an alien. She was a human that was forcibly assimilated and had 0 sense of individuality nor ability to arrive at her own decisions without the influence or perspective of the Collective.
Seven was never really in control of her own body.

And while yes, from a certain perspective, Janeway FORCED de-assimilation onto Seven, Janeway WAS operating on the perspective that Seven was never a willing participant in her assimilation.
Also, this could be construed as carrying out Nacheyev's orders because Janeway (and SF) gained a valuable asset.

Janeway never forced the Malon into accepting anything.
She simply showed them that it was possible to simply reuse antimatter waste and create no pollution in the process. The Malon refused and upon wanting to get the native alien creature from the void, Janeway of course refused because she's not really a type of individual to give away another sentient being that was essentially protecting itself.

I guess she figured allowing the Doctor to keep the mobile emitter wouldn't be harmful (in fact it liberated him from the confines of Sickbay). Also, ANY technology can have unpredictable consequences when mixed with Borg assimilation technology.
It was an accident.

My bigger question is how did the mobile emitter slip by the Temporal committee from the 29th century... but I guess they figured it was supposed to be where it was (otherwise, it would have been taken away).

Janeway was perfectly justified in stopping Ransom and she also had to stop attacks on VOY to make that happen (though I agree Janeway could have probably negotiated a less drastic solution - but hey, she was dealing with a serial Killer who for all intense and purposes refused to be reasoned with - at least from her perspective... and Ransom also attacked VOY and left them to be attacked by nucleogenic lifeforms).... also, she didn't really torture Noah Lessing. Questioned? Yes.
She also TRIED to intimidate him... but torture? Wouldn't describe it as that.

Not sure how this is even relevant.
The situation was different and we were talking about 3 depsperate people who were running out of options. When you're desperate, you do stupid things.

The resistance drones knew full well what they were getting themselves into, and without Janeway's help, they would have had 0 ability to take action in the real world before the Collective found them all and killed them in ever larger numbers.
Also, the Queen was the one who killed all those drones... not Janeway.
Stealing the TW coil was something you could say as part of executing Nacheyev's orders. SF can be 'selective' when it comes with their dealings with the Borg.
Also, Janeway created an effective civil war within the Collective... so you could say, she was still carrying out Nacheyev's orders.
Blame Nacheyev, not Janeway.

Tose aliens never warned anyone that they were salvaging a cube. They seemed little more than common space pirates who stumbled upon the field and then 'proclaimed' it their own.
Sorry, but can't really say the alien pirates get a pass here... also, Janeway never really took anything of huge value... just a simple corticle node.... and if they were reasonable, they could have negotiated a trade, but they were pretty hostile bunch of pirates and not the reasonable kind.

 

Here's a meme that "discusses" the Torres issue...

First, it was endangering the whole crew. If the EMH destroys himself, there's no doctor on Voyager. Period.

Second, Janeway forced Tuvix to be separated. She also forced B'Elanna to undergo a treatment she was morally opposed to in "Nothing Human". In other words, she made a command decision and abrogated certain people's rights for the greater good. Deleting a mere memory from the EMH was nothing in comparison, and as someone educated in procedures like appendectomy or amputation of a gangrenous limb, he should have understood that.

Abs hopefully, someone would have at least tried to stop her.

 

Hey, I know that meme!

 

An Ocampan generation is 3 years. (A generation is defined as birth to when you star dropping babies.) The Nacene showed up in the 14th century (earth time). That's 333 generations of Ocampa. A new equilibrium had been reestablished, taken root, and everyone had been comfortable with it for a thousand years.

Ocampa had no nuclegenic particles, which means that the planet cannot generate rain. The Kazon has a giant refinery that drills for Cormaline. Those refineries might need millions of litres of water a day to keep the drill shaft cooled down.

The Kazon never left Ocampa. Ocampa is worth a lot of money to them because of the refinery. Janeway ran away. She didn't fight them off.

Omega Directive, Janeway had a bomb she wanted to throw at a reactor. She planned a suicide mission, but her crew told her that she was being an asshole , and they worked trogether to destroy the reactor remotely.

Chief engineer is primarily an administrator not an engineer. Assigning duty shifts, writing reports and figuring out promotions demotions and expulsions. They have to make sure that a third of the crew is ALWAYS where they have to be to keep the engine running. In my head cannon, Carey writes all of B'Elanna's reports like Radar writes all of Col. Blake's reports, because B'Elanna washed out of the academy and doesn't know how.

In Discovery they found humans from WWIII resettled in deep space, and the Prime Directive totally applied.

Landing Voyager was a violation and its weird they weren't shot down.

Chuckles has an LSD machine that creates a collective, similar to a Borg Collective, and most of the crew are participated in that, but its probably an addictive drug like those landscapes Ransom was huffing. He thinks that his religion is from the jungle, but really it's more likely that that native Indians he met in the jungle were crisis actors paid by his father to give Chakotay an Epiphany so he doesn't go secular.

His religion is a bullshit scam, so that crashed aliens hundreds of years ago could have sex with the natives without feeling guilty. Go polygamy go!

Chakotay was saying "we need to talk to these people"

Jameway replied "Fuck it, lets kill them all."

Befriending weird aliens is not easy when you are an asshole.

I was maintaining that it is sentient. It fought to live, when they tried to kill it. Besides if Tuvok had more right to live than Tuvix because Tuvok is a 100 years older than Tuvix, than the virus had more right to live than Tuvok because the Virus is 5000 years older than Tuvok,

Do everything the same again, but half way through, drop that virus Geordi made, into a Borg Mainframe and watch them fall apart 3 months later.

Survival instinct. Seven was free. Didn't like it. made a mini collective, and crawled back to the Borg like it was an abusive spouse. She was still conditioned, but it was also her choice. She chose to be Borg.

Seven isn't human. She has multiple personalities, backed up at save points. And any of these copies of her personality would have been used all over the Collective as demons. Annika from Unimatrix Zero is probably human, but we never saw her again after Unimatrix Zero.

I said "tired" and I was also stressing that the Malon's mercantile behaviour was awful. The awfulness of aliens like the Malon, is why there is a rule against giving even helpful benign technology to foreigners because they are not capable of using technology responsibly that they are not smart enough to invent.

Which is why there is a rule against keeping future tech.

Accidents with current day tech is bag enough.

That's exactly what Christopher's time cops novel said. They let her break the law because it generated the only timeline where the Borg lost. Some of the time cops were furious because she deserved to go to time jail.

Imagine if I tie you to a chair and then release a tiger into the room where you are tied up.

How safe do you feel?

The queen said tell me when to sop killing Borg, and Janeway said nothing for a minute as ships blew up, and then she buckled and told her to stop. Janeway thought she was hard but she was not.

So they found the cube 40 seconds after Janeway did?

That's like saying that the Indians showed up 40 second after Columbus discovered America, because he didn't see them until after he planted the Spanish flag.

 

Yeah, and both Sisko and Picard defied orders, did their own thing and got commendations and/or promotions.
SF seems to work weirdly like this.
They reward certain actions and punish others.

Also, Torres was reprimanded for what she did to Carrey... and I share the idea that she shouldn't have become chief engineer so quickly. Maybe over the course of the season. In the meantime, there's no reason why the position couldn't have been given to Carrey and have Torres learn under him for SF regulations, etc.

But you could use the same argument for when the Doctor wanted to remain with that female Kumari (who dumped him when she made a better hologram for signing).

And why not also use the same analogy for the time when Janeway sent him to the AQ to care for Lewis Zimmerman?
Paris seemingly took over... and while yes he was distraught at first, over time, he was able to grow into a competent medical nurse.

Otherwise, VOY only launching with 1 doctor didn't make much of a sense.

In the same way VOY wasn't in any immediate danger and near other species (presumably), it gave VOY crew time to deal with internal matters - its likely Janeway judged that the ship would have seemingly have enough time to deal with this internal matter.

Presumably there were weeks and months in between VOY encountering other alien species on other occasions too.

As it was pointed out, the ship isn't a democracy... so the captain is able to unilatelarly override any of the crew's opinions if it is for the greater good (after taking people's recommedations).

Largely, in case of forcing Torres to undergo a treatment she didn't want was a fairly minor issue compared to her decision to bring back Tuvok and Neelix at the expense of Tuvix.
Torres was arguably in a very difficult position and might not have thought too clearly - despite evidence to the contrary... at least from a legal perspective, Janeway was justified to overrule Torres decision on the procedure in a similar way by forcing Seven to undergo medical treatment to restore her individuality (because of perceived inability to reach their own rational decisions).

Deleting a memory from the EMH wasn't too big of a deal in the scope of things sure... and Janeway still could have told the EMH he suffered a catastrophic breakdown that nearly caused his program to self-destruct (without going into specifics), and should have told him that for his own 'health' and continued survival, he would have been better off to just leave it behind - similar to how some people are told to accept that in some cases of memory loss, certain memories might be irretrievable.
At that point, the EMH would have likely accepted the loss of memory of Jetal, and that would have been it as opposed to everyone going to extreme lenghts to try to hide stuff from him.

But the situation dealt with more than that... it dealt in a fundamental conflict between Doctor's programming and what he's become over the years.
Janeway also had a primary mission to explore new worlds and seek out new lifeforms... and like Picard pointed out in case of Data: 'well there it sits'... similar analogy could have been arrived by Janeway, so she may have reasoned with herself that she had an obligation now (after much persuading from Seven) to not delete the memory and instead try to help him through it.
In any event, he DID get through it, and the ship wasn't attacked.

 

VOY would have been a better show if they had done this. My thoughts? She does a stretch in the brig for her actions. Upon her release, she has to work under Carey for awhile, and learn to control her temper and work as part of a team. Then, in "The 37's", Carey and a few Maquis jump ship, allowing Torres to inherit the chief engineer spot.

Similar character journeys could have been written for all the characters: Tom gains acceptance with a crew that regard him as untrustable. Harry grows into a seasoned officer. Kes experiences the journey of life, for crying out loud.

They didn't launch with one doctor. They had a whole medical staff, slaughtered en masse by the trip to the Delta Quadrant.

And that's what she should have done. Voyager needed its Doctor. Actually, the best thing to do would have been to rewrite the EMH's ethical subroutines to allow for subjective decisionmaking when triaging patients, but only when standard triage subroutines proved insufficient (as they did in that one case). Because the same situation could recur, and prevention is better than mere cure.

 

See, that would work.
But Carey leaving the ship to join the 37's wouldn't have made sense... he has a family to go back to.
I think a better idea would have been for Carey to have died in one the Kazon attacks... or maybe during Basics part 1.
I really don't think getting rid of Carey (him disappearing) so early on was prudent. They could have been what Torres and Vorik were.

We only saw evidence of 1 doctor in the pilot and there were others in regards to medical staff like a nurse or two... but what's odd is that there was 0 indication of the ship having more than 1 doctor and maybe 2 or 3 nurses.
What's worse, none of the extra crew were placed to train as medical personnell to replace those losses - except for Paris and Kes - surely others had biomedical backgrounds that would have gone beyond what Paris knew... and certainly those Maqui 'misfits' may have been better trained as medical support staff - or assign them as part of shuttle and torpedo assembly team along with part time medical staff in emergencies - they get the bonus of working on both engineering/science problems both at the same time.

There are lots of things Trek overall does wrong (as opposed to things that would make sense) for the sake of drama. Voy isn't the only series that did this... otherwise, whole episodes would have been resolved inside 5 minutes.
DS9 did similar stuff... TNG did too, ENT too, TOS too... in fact I don't think there's a single series that didn't do this (and Lower Decks actually points stuff like that out ALL the time in an attempt to draw attention to the obvious and what the others are being oblivious to).

Problem is that Zimmerman only devised the EMH Mark 1 as a supplement to medical staff which was suppossed to run for 1500 hours... not a full blown replacement for the lost medical team.
The VOY crew wasn't too comfortable in rewriting the EMH because Kes objected to the idea... and as we saw, the Doctor did mention that he was programmed to handle such situation in an impartial manner, but this conflicted with what he became over time... so even if the crew tried rewriting his ethical subroutines [which isn't a good idea, because if something goes wrong, you end up with Dr.Jekyll and Mr. Clyde - and a similar problem emerged when the EMH experimented on himself by injecting other personality subroutines into his matrix]).

After Kes' initial objections, and noticing how much the EMH was growing/learning, I guess Janeway didn't want to obstruct his personal growth and treated him more as a member of the crew... as long as it didn't damage him. Otherwise, its no different to other members of the crew improving themselves.

 

Carey was so unimportant a character, rewriting him as single would have been a simple matter... but not necessary. The "Learning Curve" Maquis departing would be expected, but having Carey go (true-blue Starfleet, with people to return to, and the man Janeway chose as chief engineer)... that's almost a betrayal, especially if it comes out of nowhere.

In "No Small Parts", Peanut Hamper proves unexpectedly to be a complete jerk, and that's regarded as one of the show's best ironic moments. So why can't Carey?