When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Ragitsu, Nov 17, 2021.

  1. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Well that's hardly unique.

    Seen the original MacGyver recently?
     
  2. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Watched it all the time until it got excessively preachy. And dumb (just randomly deciding that Mac was an ex professional race car driver, for instance).
     
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  3. Dee1891

    Dee1891 Captain Captain

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    Again, we have the contradiction on what makes Janeway dislikeable.
     
  4. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    In reference to Janeway, didn't Tuvok say something like..."Her weakness is also her greatest strength." or maybe "Her greatest strength is also her weakness."?
     
  5. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think it was in "NIGHT" that Tuvok said that.

    Her inconsistency is, I think, a big reason why many people dislike Janeway. I fault the writers there, for obvious reasons. Mulgrew did a great job, particularly with what she was given.

    I think one of the reasons why some come down hard on Janeway for breaking the Prime Directive often was because of how hard she clung to Starfleet principles from the start. She would be steadfast following them one episode, then throw Starfleet out the next episode. The other leads were at least consistent in why they broke the Prime Directive.

    Kirk - probably the most guilty of breaking it, but it was nearly always with a society that was stagnant or under some kind of computer control.

    Picard - rarely broke it, but it was always for a more ethical reason, like in "Who Watches The Watchers". He broke it to prevent further damage because it was already broken.

    Sisko - rarely broke it, but when he did, he broke it in a big way. He honestly got lucky in those times. (The only two that really come to mind are his telling the Bajorans to not be a Federation member and his actions in "IN THE PALE MOONLIGHT", but there he was given authority by Starfleet to do it.)

    Archer - it didn't exist yet, so we can't judge him on that. He was pretty consistent in not interfering in worlds less developed, though.
     
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  6. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Indeed. I hold no ill-will towards Mulgrew and think she did well enough with what was given. But, the writing didn't give Janeway the most consistency in terms of decision making. Sometimes she felt very approachable and other times just incredibly formal. It was odd.
     
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  7. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't dislike her. I like her very much. She's one of my favorite aspects of both "Voyager" and "Prodigy".

    Rather, I'm speculating on why others might feel otherwise. I actually posted seven or eight possible reasons why, but they're spelled out much earlier in the topic.
     
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  8. MarkusTay

    MarkusTay Commander Red Shirt

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    I'd have to boil-down my own former statements regarding this and agree with what others are saying above, because being less specific and more general, in this particular case, I think better encapsulates how people feel about her.

    She 'waffled' too much. You know what makes a GREAT villain? A villain that has logical reasons for doing what they do, and stick to their convictions no matter what. 'Evil' for evil's sake is just dumb. The same is true for good characters (but the villains rarely get that much in-depth treatment). You develop a character and people understand that character - they know what to expect, because they've learned how that character thinks by the material presented. This is how our brains work - on a daily basis, we interact with each person in our lives slightly differently, based on how we know their reactions will be to what we are saying. When a different outcome happens then what we expected, chaos ensues.

    This is where Janeway falls out. You walk into her ready room and present an idea/plan to her, and you don't know if she's gonna toss you out an airlock, or decide to hold a toga-party in the holodeck in your honor. Its literally a crapshoot every time you have to deal with her, IMO.
     
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  9. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That is my impression as well, though I'll freely admit to having not watched Voyager in almost 20 years now, save for in passing, i.e. someone else watching an episode and I catch bits and pieces. But, my initial impression was Janeway had strong convictions but was inconsistent in how she would respond to the crew. Early on, Tuvok thinks Janeway is such a stickler for the rules that he goes behind her back to get needed technology. And then, in another episode, Janeway has no issue violating a species space because she calls them "bullies" and surprises Tuvok in her willingness to defy regulations.
     
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  10. MarkusTay

    MarkusTay Commander Red Shirt

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    Actually, I've been binge-watching the past couple weeks (with a break the last couple of days to watch the 2018 Lost in Space, which I hadn't even known existed until now). And honestly, its WORSE when you are doing the 3-5 episodes a night thing. Its like she's bipolar.

    And sadly, a LOT of her decisions wind-up screwing over her crew somehow in the long run, the crew she keeps swearing she is sworn to protect. Even Tuvok has gone against her orders when he thought she wasn't being logical (and he had to take the crew's dire situation into consideration himself, because his "captain wasn't thinking clearly"). Remember that time Johnathan Archer threw the Prime Directive right out the window, along with all human and Starfleet 'ideals', and became a space pirate? He did what he thought he needed to do, to save the entirety of the human race. THAT makes sense. Ideals only get you so far, especially when there are lives at stake. It almost comes-off like Janeway is more concerned about HER reputation than any of her crew. Almost.
     
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  11. dupersuper

    dupersuper Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah that woke, political MacGyver...
     
  12. MarkusTay

    MarkusTay Commander Red Shirt

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    You know, I might be the only person I know who never watched a single episode of McGyver. The premise just didn't appeal to me. Those kinds of characters - that just know how to do EVERYTHING - are terrible IMO. It worked for The Professor on Gilligan's Island because that was a comedy, and it was part of his 'schtick' (just like the radio ALWAYS playing the exact information they needed the moment they turned it on). In a comedy, it works. In a drama, not so much. In an 'adventure series', like McGyver or ST, you can get away with it sometimes, but to base your entire show around such a premise? Just nope.

    Probably why it was so hard for me to enjoy Pickard... there is a certain character in that show who's entire skill-set changes from episode to episode depending on the plot, and its TERRIBLE. I know everyone in Starfleet is supposedly trained at everything (is anyone NOT an engineer of some kind?), but that show just takes it to whole 'nother level and rubs your face in it. Plus, she wasn't even IN Starfleet! Still, I was able to get through it and enjoyed the rest.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2022
  13. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    While Mac is a broadly talented individual, his plans occasionally fall through and he still requires assistance from time to time. Plus, not every episode features a traditional happy ending.
     
  14. MarkusTay

    MarkusTay Commander Red Shirt

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    Ah, okay. So its not as bad as I had presumed? Not like the A-Team, with their 'build and ugly vehicle of the week' schtick?
    Maybe someday, when I have nothing else to binge-watch, then. I've also never watched a single episode of Night-Rider. I think I just never got to watch TV back when I was married.
     
  15. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The first Season - at the least - got the Blu-Ray/High-Definition treatment and it looks fantastic.
     
  16. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I practically lived for A-team and Knight Rider back in the day. Early MacGyver too. Typical Gen-X brat, I guess.
     
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  17. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Those were some great shows.
     
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  18. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    you are not: the only thing I know about McGyver is that he cobbles together unlikely stuff.

    who?
     
  19. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Early on, that was indeed the case. He was a generalist operative of sorts who didnt bring equipment, instead relying on whatever he could find lying around. Later on, he was an olympic level hockey player, a pro race driver, a mountain rescue ranger, and a whole crapload of other things that would require about 268 years of training to master. He also had a strong dislike for guns, which grew to borderline zealotry as the show approached its end.
     
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  20. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    I see. McGyver is Bruce Wayne.