When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

[Ryan8bit]

In that case, why does this thread even exist? You guys are trying to fit a square shape (science) into a circle hole (fiction).

If all that matters is Trek's sense of science fiction, then we are left to believe that the person who comes out of the transporter is the exact same person who went in because that's what Star Trek has always implied.

Ryan8bit:

Well said, my friend.

"You guys are trying to fit a square shape (science) into a circle hole (fiction)."
Exactly. And one of the consequences of this 'fitting' is that the transporter DOES kill the original and make a copy.

"all that matters is Trek's sense of science fiction"
What are you talking about? My posts make clear I don't have this view - I always took into account the real quantum mechanical laws and logic.
You should tell that to Luther Sloan, for example, who ignores them (his definition of the concept of 'copy' is especially amusing) because they don't fit his 'vision'.

Look above to the very first quote here where you say, "quantum mechanical laws have NOTHING to do with fictional trekverse episodes."

That's where the issue comes in. You have two options:

1. Accept what the show says is true
2. Argue the science of the show to prove that what the show says is false

If quantum mechanical laws don't matter, then you should default to position one. Actually you should probably check out position one anyways in the case of transporters, warp drive, or any other fantastic technology presented in the show because they aren't real.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

3D Master

Your concept of using superposition and wave function collapse at the 'beam down' point as the principle behind the transporter is interesting, but it's also NOT what happens in star trek.

For one, it doesn't involve 'dematerialization'.
For another, it doesn't need 'heisenberg compensators' or 'pattern buffers' for the simple fact that the superposed body is in as much danger of falling apart as we are now, in our 'standard' bodies.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Ryan8bit:

Well said, my friend.

"You guys are trying to fit a square shape (science) into a circle hole (fiction)."
Exactly. And one of the consequences of this 'fitting' is that the transporter DOES kill the original and make a copy.

"all that matters is Trek's sense of science fiction"
What are you talking about? My posts make clear I don't have this view - I always took into account the real quantum mechanical laws and logic.
You should tell that to Luther Sloan, for example, who ignores them (his definition of the concept of 'copy' is especially amusing) because they don't fit his 'vision'.

Look above to the very first quote here where you say, "quantum mechanical laws have NOTHING to do with fictional trekverse episodes."

Ryan8bit, when the scenarists wrote certain star trek episodes, scientific accuracy was very low on their list of priorities - aka you should not try to view star trek episodes as scientific truth. AKA "quantum mechanical laws have NOTHING to do with fictional trekverse episodes."

I give priority to true quantum mechanical laws to the parody version presented in some trekverse episode. AKA "My posts make clear I don't have this view - I always took into account the real quantum mechanical laws and logic."

Indeed, my posts try to reconcile quantum mechanical laws with what's shown in the episodes, by interpreting these episodes in a way that allows this harmony.

You may choose to view the trekverse as a fantasy universe - go ahead. Don't assume that someone else is required to share your position.
Consider the concepts discussed in this thread, Ryan8bit - why are you even here, if, for you, the science is irrelevant?

 

[Ryan8bit]

scientific accuracy was very low on their list of priorities - aka you should not try to view star trek episodes as scientific truth. AKA "quantum mechanical laws have NOTHING to do with fictional trekverse episodes."

Which takes position one that I suggested. Don't argue what isn't there.

Indeed, my posts try to reconcile quantum mechanical laws with what's shown in the episodes, by interpreting these episodes in a way that allows this harmony.

Except your ideas of duplicates being made is not at all harmonious with the show given the intent of the writers. No matter how much science you drudge up, nothing will change the fact that the writers have always intended it to be the same person, and that examples like "Second Chances" or "Tuvix" are just them breaking the rules to tell a story.

You may choose to view the trekverse as a fantasy universe - go ahead. Don't assume that someone else is required to share your position.

I hate to break it to you, but it is fantasy. None of it is real. All of the doodads use a decent amount of science, but ultimately the fiction part prevails in the need to tell a story.

why are you even here, if, for you, the science is irrelevant?

Because it's not even necessarily a science driven topic. It started out philosophically and then drew on science and then got down to the point of obsessing over science. It's when people get really obsessive that I feel like reminding that it's whatever the writers want it to be, and that trying to argue against that is sort of futile.

 

[Pauln6]

There was nothing physical left, according to you, for the transporter to latch onto. Those people that Barclay and the rest grabbed, weren't physical bodies according to you, they were just a meaningless collection of energy. The transporter has no patter, no blue print, no nothing to know how remake them properly.

Yes, and this energy-like sate is a quantum flux where he is both the energy and himself physically, at the same time; which is what allowed him to move.

Yes, a quantum-foam where they are both energy and physically their bodies, at the same time.

And again, I never said it wasn't possible, quite the contrary, I've said it is very possible. Yes, you can turn a physical body into energy and then back again in a body. However, this process kills the person, and produces and exact duplicate.

Ok so hang on then, if a pattern buffer is needed to keep a person's pattern intact long enough to rematerialise how could Reg rescue someone whose pattern clearly isn't in a buffer or contained within an ACB (I haven't seen the episode for years)? More to the point, when someone is beamed back from a planet, they have no quantum scanner or buffer until they reach the ship... what am I missing here?

The matter stream can't just be matter coverted to energy. It must contain some kind of delayed signal in the subspace carrier to trigger the instructions to rebuild the person. If something prevents the signal and energy from being scattered then in theory someone could be reconstructed after any period of time as long as the subspace signal is there. But how do you stop a subspace singal from shooting off into subspace? They can't tie this stuff together with string...

Unless you're talking about a dimensional shift though I don't see how someone's body could be intact while also being energy though.

It's clear that the original writers thought it was a cool idea (and it was) but the stories that have expanded on the concept have made a bad idea worse!

 

[T'Girl]

Briefly taking that as a given, again you're still not stating why the original is deliberately being put to death, the death of the original under you hypothesis seem to be an option, not a requirement.

The 'sole reason' for destroying the original is the fact that the federation doesn't have the technology to 'beam down' without creating a copy at the target location.

Dematerialising by transporter is equivalent to dematerialising by phaser - it kills you ...

Afterwards, at the 'beam down' site, a copy is constructed.

I think you're confusing "dematerialize" and "disintegrate." A phaser doesn't dematerialize you.

Dematerialize is to lose your material form, you cease to "be material," you go from being material to being energy. Rematerialization is the reversal of the process, it take you from being energy (an energy state) to again being physical or material. It is you (the so called "original") in this energy state that is sent through the matter stream, that's your pristine genuine matter (as energy) that is in transition to the destination.

You say that the Federation lacks the technology in the 24th century to transport a person in the way I'm describing? I throw back at you that the 22nd century pre-Federation Earth's lacked the technology to construct a copy of a living Human being in an open field thousands of kilometers away from the transporter equipment, these people didn't even have replicators yet. But you have them constructing living humans. Even in the 24th century, the technology of the day was incapable of replicating a single Human body organ (a heart).

As described, the transporter and the replicator share much of the same equipment and operating concepts.

 

[T'Girl]

The matter stream can't just be matter coverted to energy. It must contain some kind of delayed signal in the subspace carrier to trigger the instructions to rebuild the person.

Given the experience of the Riker that rematerialized back on the surface of Nervala Four, rematerialization might be a fairly natural process that can happen all by itself.

The transporter operator and things like the pattern buffer (only fifty years old) are there for additional safety, but are not necessary for rematerialized to occur. If the transporter process actively holds the transportee in the energy state, then simply releasing the transporter beam may result in a natural reconversion back into a corporeal state. This is how "Tom" Riker rematerialized without any assistance from the transporter operator on the Potemkin.

In a normal transport, the operator might place the landing party (as energy) at the beam down location and then releases the beam, he just "let's them go."

 

[Luther Sloan]

That's where the issue comes in. You have two options:

1. Accept what the show says is true
2. Argue the science of the show to prove that what the show says is false

If quantum mechanical laws don't matter, then you should default to position one. Actually you should probably check out position one anyways in the case of transporters, warp drive, or any other fantastic technology presented in the show because they aren't real.

Ryan8bit:

Yeah, that pretty much sums up the heart of the matter right there.
I would also add an option 3, as well...

3. Argue the fiction of the show by ignoring or twisting the truth of certain parts of it.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Briefly taking that as a given, again you're still not stating why the original is deliberately being put to death, the death of the original under you hypothesis seem to be an option, not a requirement.

The 'sole reason' for destroying the original is the fact that the federation doesn't have the technology to 'beam down' without creating a copy at the target location.

Dematerialising by transporter is equivalent to dematerialising by phaser - it kills you ...

Afterwards, at the 'beam down' site, a copy is constructed.

I think you're confusing "dematerialize" and "disintegrate." A phaser doesn't dematerialize you.

No, T'Girl.

You see, you're dead both ways.
'Dead' meaning that the information that defines 'life' as opposed to 'a few liters of water, some carbon, etc' is no longer there:

"You know, T'Girl, our bodies are made up of water, carbon and a few other cheap elements. What makes us special is the information embedded in these elements - that's what makes us ALIVE.

Star Trek makes clear that the body is 'dematerialised' and then, in order to 'materialise' the copy, you need the information from the 'pattern buffers'. Once the body 'dematerialises', it looses this information aka DIES - that's why one needs 'pattern buffers' to retain the information in the first place."

Which means:

"Dematerialising by transporter is equivalent to dematerialising by phaser - it kills you, reducing your body to a few random atoms/particles.
Afterwards, at the 'beam down' site, a copy is constructed - it could be from new atoms/particles or the dematrialised atoms/particles. This doesn't change the fact that the original is dead - it was vaporized on the transporter pad."

About transporter/replicator - the replicator doesn't have heinsenberg compensators, pattern buffers, is a twentieth the size of a transporter, etc.

 

[Pauln6]

The matter stream can't just be matter coverted to energy. It must contain some kind of delayed signal in the subspace carrier to trigger the instructions to rebuild the person.

Given the experience of the Riker that rematerialized back on the surface of Nervala Four, rematerialization might be a fairly natural process that can happen all by itself.

The transporter operator and things like the pattern buffer (only fifty years old) are there for additional safety, but are not necessary for rematerialized to occur. If the transporter process actively holds the transportee in the energy state, then simply releasing the transporter beam may result in a natural reconversion back into a corporeal state. This is how "Tom" Riker rematerialized without any assistance from the transporter operator on the Potemkin.

In a normal transport, the operator might place the landing party (as energy) at the beam down location and then releases the beam, he just "let's them go."

On one level it makes sense, but the natural state of energy isn't matter. The transporter would have to do something to reconvert it to the correct pattern - I don't see how it can snap back. It does seem as though the pattern buffer is a non-essential system though - possibly just there as a means of using the bio-filter program, which also didn't exist in the early systems.

If the transporter is phasing the matter into a parallel dimension (thus keeping the whole person alive) and is only really beaming sufficient energy to maintain the phased state as part of the ACB, which as you say, snaps back when the carrier wave reaches the destination and disengages, this makes far more sense but also completely contradicts the express statement that the system deconstructs your molecules rather than phases your molecules intact.

The deconstruction method would have made more sense if the communicator (or site set up with pattern enhancers) was essential to transport because without it no quantum scan is possible while absent from a transporter pad unless the scan signal can reach the site somehow.

 

[T'Girl]

About transporter/replicator - the replicator doesn't have heinsenberg compensators, pattern buffers, is a twentieth the size of a transporter, etc.

from Code of Honor

Picard: "Meanwhile, you were testing whether we can replicate the vaccine ..."

Crusher: "And we can't! Their sample works fine when used as an injection, but it becomes unstable
when we try to replicate it. You must get vaccine from the planet, Captain."

In the episode Code of Honor, it seemed pretty obvious that the vaccine that Captain Picard was negotiating for was going to be beamed up, your method of transporting would have destroyed the vaccine would it not?

from The Enemy

Crusher: "He has cell damage to vital areas. He's going to need a transfusion of compatible ribosomes in order to recover. I'm setting up a schedule to test every member of the crew. "

Picard: " We can't use the replicator?"

Crusher: "The molecules are too complex."

Care to explain how Mr. Worf would even have any compatible ribosomes left in his body considering how many times he has been through the transporter? If the ribosomes were too complex to be copied by the medical replicator, then they would have been too complex too be copy the transporter!

In terms of heinsenberg compensator, pattern buffers, etc., why wouldn't Doctor Crusher's medical replicator have these devices if that what it took to produce certain pharmaceutical?

On one level it makes sense, but the natural state of energy isn't matter. The transporter would have to do something to reconvert it to the correct pattern - I don't see how it can snap back. It does seem as though the pattern buffer is a non-essential system though - possibly just there as a means of using the bio-filter program, which also didn't exist in the early systems.

If the transporter is phasing the matter into a parallel dimension (thus keeping the whole person alive) and is only really beaming sufficient energy to maintain the phased state as part of the ACB, which as you say, snaps back when the carrier wave reaches the destination and disengages, this makes far more sense but also completely contradicts the express statement that the system deconstructs your molecules rather than phases your molecules intact.

My university studies are in chemistry and biology, I'll be the first to admit that quantum mechanics is beyond me. What I'm suggesting is that the conversion to an energy state is a temporary one. The transporter doesn't permanently change you into energy and then later (well seconds later) as an entire separate conversion change you permanently into physical. Rather the transporter device has to actively hold you in an energy state as a on going process, it can't let you go, because if it did you would rematerialize back into a physical state.

In the episode That Which Survives, the transporter operator was killed as Kirk and his landing party were first dematerializing. He was not required to actively rematerialize them on the surface.

I lke your idea that the pattern buffer is tied into the bio-filter, the pattern buffer could be like a waiting room for people in a energy state, similar to Captain Archer's decontamination chamber, regrettably without the goo.

 

[Pauln6]

My university studies are in chemistry and biology, I'll be the first to admit that quantum mechanics is beyond me. What I'm suggesting is that the conversion to an energy state is a temporary one. The transporter doesn't permanently change you into energy and then later (well seconds later) as an entire separate conversion change you permanently into physical. Rather the transporter device has to actively hold you in an energy state as a on going process, it can't let you go, because if it did you would rematerialize back into a physical state.

In the episode That Which Survives, the transporter operator was killed as Kirk and his landing party were first dematerializing. He was not required to actively rematerialize them on the surface.

I lke your idea that the pattern buffer is tied into the bio-filter, the pattern buffer could be like a waiting room for people in a energy state, similar to Captain Archer's decontamination chamber, regrettably without the goo.

I'm not sure that watching Leonard Nimoy rub goo into William Shatner's back would have been that appealing... If Pine and Qunito want to have at it though I'm fine with that.

Maybe the Anular Confinement Beam is what retains the matter stream in an energy state and it disengages automatically when the beam reaches the target co-ordinates.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

About transporter/replicator - the replicator doesn't have heinsenberg compensators, pattern buffers, is a twentieth the size of a transporter, etc.

from Code of Honor

Picard: "Meanwhile, you were testing whether we can replicate the vaccine ..."

Crusher: "And we can't! Their sample works fine when used as an injection, but it becomes unstable
when we try to replicate it. You must get vaccine from the planet, Captain."

In the episode Code of Honor, it seemed pretty obvious that the vaccine that Captain Picard was negotiating for was going to be beamed up, your method of transporting would have destroyed the vaccine would it not?

from The Enemy

Crusher: "He has cell damage to vital areas. He's going to need a transfusion of compatible ribosomes in order to recover. I'm setting up a schedule to test every member of the crew. "

Picard: " We can't use the replicator?"

Crusher: "The molecules are too complex."

Care to explain how Mr. Worf would even have any compatible ribosomes left in his body considering how many times he has been through the transporter? If the ribosomes were too complex to be copied by the medical replicator, then they would have been too complex too be copy the transporter!

Already done:
About transporter/replicator - the replicator doesn't have heinsenberg compensators, pattern buffers, is a twentieth the size of a transporter, etc.

In terms of heinsenberg compensator, pattern buffers, etc., why wouldn't Doctor Crusher's medical replicator have these devices if that what it took to produce certain pharmaceutical?

Most likely because a transporter's pattern buffer can only retain information on that level of resolution (necessary for creating a living copy of a person or some drugs) for a few seconds, being, therefore, useless for long-term pattern storage.
In DS9: Our man Bashir, the information required to make up 4 humanoids filled every storage device on the station.

Storing patterns for thousands of pharmaceuticals at that resolution is unfeasible. Which is why it isn't done.

Think of the information the replicator uses as having a resolution of 10pixels and the information contained in the transporter's pattern buffers as having a resolution of 100000pixels.

The replicator is a highly simplified version of the transporter.

 

[Mytran]

The deconstruction method would have made more sense if the communicator (or site set up with pattern enhancers) was essential to transport because without it no quantum scan is possible while absent from a transporter pad unless the scan signal can reach the site somehow.

That sounds more like the teleporter bracelets from "Blake's Seven"

 

[Pauln6]

The deconstruction method would have made more sense if the communicator (or site set up with pattern enhancers) was essential to transport because without it no quantum scan is possible while absent from a transporter pad unless the scan signal can reach the site somehow.

That sounds more like the teleporter bracelets from "Blake's Seven"

Oooh yeah! If only Deanna could have been Cally with boobs I would have hated betazoids far less.

TOS usually stuck with the notion that the communicators were a necessary part of the process and that makes sense but the writers started to drift. They should have kept a tighter grip in my view.

 

[T'Girl]

Storing patterns for thousands of pharmaceuticals at that resolution is unfeasible. Which is why it isn't done.

I'm afraid that explanation won't work ProtoAvatar. Doctor Crusher didn't have to pull the pattern for the vaccine from the medical replicator's data base, the dialog made clear that a sample of the vaccine existed aboard the Enterprise. Doctor Crusher attempted to replicate the vaccine USING the vaccine. Even if the replicator couldn't hold the pattern for any length of time she could have scanned the original (there's that word again) over and over again and produced the vaccine by the truck loads. What this actual indicates is that there are things in the 24th century that simply can not be copied with the technology that exists.

Crusher's vaccine
Picard's heart
The Romulan's ribosomes

It does not matter if it's the replicator or the transporter, there are thing which are too complex for the technology and it can't copy living tissue.

When you order a meal from a replicator that includes steak, what you're (most likely) getting on your plate isn't actual bovine muscle tissue. It a facsimile, if you implanted it into a cow it wouldn't function. Neither would a replicated Human heart for Picard, because the technology of the 24th century can not copy an actual biological organ that can be made to function. And the transporter has the same restrictions. It certainly can't copy an entire Human being with all the complexity that make up one of us, it's beyond them. And if the 24th century transporters can't do it, then the 22nd century transporters sure couldn't do it

Most likely because a transporter's pattern buffer can only retain information on that level of resolution (necessary for creating a living copy of a person or some drugs) for a few seconds, being, therefore, useless for long-term pattern storage.

In the TOS episode Day Of The Dove, using 23rd century technology (including a much more primitive buffer) Kirk held a group of Klingons in energy state for about a minute and there was nothing to suggest that this was the upper limit.

The replicator is a highly simplified version of the transporter.

Given that the transporter dates from the 22nd century and the replicator dates from the 24th century, the replicator is the more advanced device, with the transporter being the simpler of the two.

After all, the transporter just moves things around, the replicator has to actual create things.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

T'Girl

"Crusher's vaccine":
If there was an available sample, it most likely contained componds that resisted quantum level scan, making it impossible to copy via transporter - we encountered quite a few of those in star trek.
As for the replicator, which didn't use quantum level scans - it 'worked' but the replicated product was useless, different from the original on th quantum level.

"Picard's heart, The Romulan's ribosomes":
There was no intact 'Picard heart' to copy by transport; and there were no 'ribozomes' on board to copy - except within Worf, and he wasn't sharing.

"In the TOS episode Day Of The Dove, using 23rd century technology (including a much more primitive buffer) Kirk held a group of Klingons in energy state for about a minute and there was nothing to suggest that this was the upper limit."
In TNG: Relics, Scotty spent years in the transporter. How? By encoding his information in the pattern buffer, then using this information to 'mold' the matter that once made him (erasing the information from the pattern buffers before the pattern buffer overloaded), scan himself and charge the pattern buffer again, repeat ad nauseam. The Scotty from TNG was a millionthish generation copy of TOS Scotty. His friend, on the othrer hand, could not be copied anymore, even though the matter he was made of was still in the transporter - the pattern buffer that held his 'information' overloaded AKA no information in the pattern buffer = dead matter cannot be resurrected, making a copy anymore.
Kirk did the same with the klingons.
Your claim that pattern buffers don't overload in a few seconds/minutes is expressly contradicted in DS9: Our man Bashir - by the entirety of the episode, not just a few scenes AKA storing pattern of substances at sufficient resolution is unfeasible.

"And the transporter has the same restrictions. It certainly can't copy an entire Human being with all the complexity that make up one of us, it's beyond them."
TNG: Second chances - the transporter created TWO copies, instead of one, just to prove that it can.

"Given that the transporter dates from the 22nd century and the replicator dates from the 24th century, the replicator is the more advanced device, with the transporter being the simpler of the two.

After all, the transporter just moves things around, the replicator has to actual create things."
When the tech appeared is irrelevant.
The pattern buffer may have appeared in the 22th century, but it's obvious that by the 24th century the pattern buffer overload problem wasn't solved.
Meaning the information the replicator uses has a far lower resolution than the information the transporter uses to copy a person, due to the fact that the replicator has far les memory available (but permanent memory, not one that overloads in a few minutes).

 

[Luther Sloan]

Watch the following episodes in great detail and take notes on everything the transporter has done or what has been said about it.

ENT's "Daedalus"
TOS's "Enemy Within"
TOS's "Mirror Mirror"
TNG's "Realm of Fear"
TNG's "Second Chances"
TNG's "Relics"
TNG's "Unnatural Selection"
TNG's "A Matter of Perspective"
TNG's "Next Phase"
DS9's "Our Man Bashir"
DS9's "Past Tense Part l and ll"
DS9's "Field of Fire"
DS9's "Covenant"
VOY's "Tuvix"
VOY's "Non Sequitur"
VOY's "Counterpoint"
VOY's "Drone"
VOY's "Message in a Bottle"


Then I would write down all the reasons that defend each of the major positions of the argument (used in this thread) and compare them with the actual scenes (you took notes on) in the above episodes as a guide. Then, comparing the episode opinions next what the episode actually says: mark a big red X over each theory or defense that doesn't match up with what has been actually said or done within the series regarding the transporter. After you get done crossing off each defense that doesn't match up with what the episode actually says; see which defense has the least of amount of X's in it and go with that belief.


Here are 3 beliefs on the transporter!
(Within This Thread):

1. The transporter kills the original (or previous version) and it's kinetic energy and then creates a copy of it (despite no mention that it has ever been proven to do this in over 200 years).

2. The transporter doesn't kill you and it is a car ride that phases your body into a half energy and half physical matter type state (or dimension) along with the kinetic energy. Also, in this theory: your molecules don't actually get taken apart (despite the claim that it does).

3. The transporter doesn't kill you or your kinetic energy, but simply converts your molecules (and it's kinetic energy) into a phased energy type state only like a car ride. The taking apart of your molecules still happens but it is simply the conversion or phase process of your physical matter continuing on (uninterrupted) as energy and then back to it's physical state again. Your body or your kinetic energy doesn't die because it is seamlessly phased into an energy like state during de-construction. In other words, you perfectly live on as an as a phased energy being (that looks like the physical body but has no actual material substance in the physical world) until it is re-materialized.

 

[T'Girl]

"Crusher's vaccine": If there was an available sample, it most likely contained componds that resisted
quantum level scan, making it impossible to copy via transporter

from Code Of Honour

Riker: "Riker to Captain."
Pard: "Picard here."
Riker: "Since you've fulfilled your agreement, Captain, can we now beam the vaccine aboard?:
Lutan: "Ah, yes, of course."
Picard: "No problem, Number One."

Why I guess you're right, the vaccine was impossible to scan for copying by the transporter.

However since the transporter doesn't actually copy things (just sends the originals) that's not a problem is it?

The Romulan's ribosomes": ... and there were no 'ribozomes' on board to copy - except within Worf, and he wasn't sharing.

from The Enemy

Crusher: "He has cell damage to vital areas. He's going to need a transfusion of compatible ribosomes in order to recover.

There was a source of ribosomes on board, within the Romulan. He didn't need ribosomes, he needed more ribosomes, to repair the damaged cells. Ribosomes synthesize new proteins for cell growth, ribosomes are present in all Human cells.

The medical replicator couldn't copy/create ribosomes, which means the transporter can't copy/create the ribosomes in the Humans and Klingons who are "copied" by it. Which mean they would be dead in a short time after being "copied."

However since the transporter doesn't copy people (just sends the originals) that's not a problem is it?

In the TOS episode Day Of The Dove, using 23rd century technology (including a much more primitive buffer) Kirk held a group of Klingons in energy state for about a minute and there was nothing to suggest that this was the upper limit.

In TNG: Relics, Scotty spent years in the transporter.

Correction. Scotty spent years in a highly modified transporter, very unlike the standard one used in the episode I mentioned.

The Scotty from TNG was a millionthish generation copy of TOS Scotty.

Excuse me but didn't you explicitly state in an previous post that the transporters do not create copies aboard the ship, that instead the copy was created at the point of rematerialization? Or have you now changed your mind (and your hypothesis?).

Your claim that pattern buffers don't overload in a few seconds/minutes is expressly contradicted in DS9: Our man Bashir

Me? I never claimed anything of the sort, in fact this is the first time I've heard the term "overload" attached to "pattern buffer." (is this a strawman argument on your part?)

Given that the transporter dates from the 22nd century and the replicator dates from the 24th century, the replicator is the more advanced device, with the transporter being the simpler of the two.

When the tech appeared is irrelevant.

Disagree, the progress of time bring more sophisticated and complex devices into existence.

The pattern buffer may have appeared in the 22th century, but it's obvious that by the 24th century the pattern buffer overload problem wasn't solved.

What pattern buffer overload problem?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

T'Girl

The pattern buffers overload aka they can only store the large volume of information needed to transport a single person for a few seconds/minutes before the information looses coherence, being lost. See DS9: Our man Bashir

Permanently storing the large volume of information needed to exactly 'replicate' thousands of compunds is not feasible with federation technology.

About the vaccine - if Crusher didn't have access to the vaccine until it was 'beamed aboard' she couldn't copy it, of course.
About ribozomes - the romulan's ribozomes were damaged - not just in a cell but throughout his entire body - cellular damage is not a physical trauma, localized.
About the 'copy' - "'Dead' meaning that the information that defines 'life' as opposed to 'a few liters of water, some carbon, etc' is no longer there:

You know, T'Girl, our bodies are made up of water, carbon and a few other cheap elements. What makes us special is the information embedded in these elements - that's what makes us ALIVE.

Star Trek makes clear that the body is 'dematerialised' and then, in order to 'materialise' the copy, you need the information from the 'pattern buffers'. Once the body 'dematerialises', it looses this information aka DIES - that's why one needs 'pattern buffers' to retain the information in the first place.

Dematerialising by transporter is equivalent to dematerialising by phaser - it kills you, reducing your body to a few random atoms/particles.
Afterwards, at the 'beam down' site, a copy is constructed - it could be from new atoms/particles or the dematrialised atoms/particles. This doesn't change the fact that the original is dead - it was vaporized on the transporter pad."