When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

[ProtoAvatar]

3D Master, when the wave function of a particle collapses, it collapses to a SINGLE STATE for that particle.
It never collapses to TWO separate states for that particle! Two Rikers.

In the normal average event of a particle collapse, yes. This is not such an event.

Really?

Well, show me the 'special case' where this does not apply, 3D Master.

And - as I already told you - it better not be a 'parrtial' wave function collapse of a particle. The second you even look at this 'partially' collapsed particle, it collapses to a SINGLE state.

Your 'explanation' IS nonsense according to fundamental quantum mechanics!

You don't know fundamental quantum mechanics.

You should worry about yourself regarding this matter, 3D Master.

 

[3D Master]

3D Master, when the wave function of a particle collapses, it collapses to a SINGLE STATE for that particle.
It never collapses to TWO separate states for that particle! Two Rikers.

In the normal average event of a particle collapse, yes. This is not such an event.

Really?

Well, show me the 'special case' where this does not apply, 3D Master.

In the special case of a second transporter beam.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

In the normal average event of a particle collapse, yes. This is not such an event.

Really?

Well, show me the 'special case' where this does not apply, 3D Master.

In the special case of a second transporter beam.

3D Master, you do know quantum mechanical laws have NOTHING to do with fictional trekverse episodes, yes?

You accused me that I "don't know fundamental quantum mechanics."
We're talking quantum mechanics here, NOT trekverse fantasy science.

I'm still waiting for that 'special case', different from the "normal average event".

 

[Luther Sloan]

No, you're dead. When a phaser blasts you are also tuned into energy and sub-atomic particles. Aka, dead.

3D Master:

Not true. Your implication is basically implying that every type of flesh to energy transformation for a character used in science fiction automatically means you are dead and copied. Well, the black female version of Captain Marvel (from Marvel comics) doesn't die when she turns into phased energy and then back to her self again. So this cannot be an all inclusive written in stone assumption.

Besides, there is evidence within Star Trek that suggests that you actually don't die within Star Trek (please read below).

No, when you rematerialize a copy of your body and brain is recreated, and thus a copy continuous living. Aka a copy or a clone, and not yourself.

The creator of the transporter "Emory Erickson" said that he had disproved the theory that the transporter is a copy machine. Also, kinetic energy is something that cannot be copied. It really is not a distinct element or energy source that can be duplicated in such a way. It can only be re-directed or phased at best. And even that is pushing the limits of believability.

Your mind is not free from your body. Your mind is simply contained in the brain; it is entirely physical. The moment you dematerialize there is no body, and thus brain and no mind.

In the physical world you would obviously need a brain in order to interact with the physical world. However, when you are digitized or turned into energy to be stored in the transporter buffer: your soul and spirit body remain intact to perceive the transporter process and or allow your mind to be transfered to a Holodeck spy program if there was a transporter malfunction.

I mean, there are energy beings in the universe that don't have brains. Who is to say that your transporter trip isn't similar to the existence to one of these energy beings?

No, because flashing out of phase still has you remain intact.

So every type of phase is defined by what you think it should be. Well, we learn that the body is de-materialized into energy where the mind can exist in an energy like state. This has been shown to us in "Our Man Bashir".

That's because if the copy machine does it's copying correctly, kinetic energy gets copied along with it. If it didn't, then transporting a person would result in them dropping dead; the blood would no longer have its kinetic energy and thus stand still, the same goes for neurons, chemical substances, the heart, etc. etc. Simple answer is that it does. Kinetic energy is simply a vector an attribute of a particle, and it gets recreated along with everything else. In your concept; no. It gets dematerialized and a copy is made.

Wow. do you really believe that kinetic energy is copied, destroyed, digitized, and then recreated somehow?

Really. That sounds like you are stretching it, man. You either choose to believe what the series says about the transporter or you don't.

We're talking quantum mechanics here, NOT trekverse fantasy science.

Proto Avatar:

Uh, I don't know what thread you have been in lately, but we actually are talking about Trek-verse fantasy science.




Side Note:

Anyways, if you guys cannot offer any evidence from the series besides "Second Chances" and your own silly quantum mechanical theories (and not what the actual show says about the transporter) to prove your side of the argument: Then you really can't be reasoned with (by conventional methods).

 

[Ryan8bit]

quantum mechanical laws have NOTHING to do with fictional trekverse episodes

In that case, why does this thread even exist? You guys are trying to fit a square shape (science) into a circle hole (fiction).

If all that matters is Trek's sense of science fiction, then we are left to believe that the person who comes out of the transporter is the exact same person who went in because that's what Star Trek has always implied.

 

[Pauln6]

See, but that's just the thing. How do you know that the transporter process just doesn't flawlessly turn you into energy and restores you back to original state without killing you? Just because you de-materialize and then re-materialize doesn't mean you die and get copied.


In other words: the transporter actually works like this....

1. Your physical body de-materializes.

2. Your soul (i.e. mind) and spirit body travel along for the journey because you are not technically dead because you are changed into energy during the de-materialization and re-materialization process.

3. You get converted into energy for transport with your mind attached.

4. Sometimes you are able to perceive that you can move a bit inside the matter stream even though your physical body doesn't move from the point it entered and to the point it returned (Again: this is probably your spirit body or a mental image of yourself in the energy state you are living in).

5. Your mind is retained in the energy conversion process (which suggests you really are not dead).

6. Your physical body re-materializes back and is indistinguishable on a genetic level from the physical body that stepped onto the transporter pad.

In other words there is no evidence to suggest that the body is in fact killed. It is simply converted into energy (with the mind attached) and then converted back to it's original form.

I mean, it is sort of like someone flashing out of phase for a second and then coming back. However, just because the body is deconstructed and then put back together flawlessly during this process does not mean in no way that it is still not the original person. The body simply could have been out of phase and the body could be perfectly put on hold or stored in an energy type state.

However, if you are still doubtful: there is another piece of evidence that suggests that the transporter is more a car ride (or a transference) than it is a copy machine. In DS9's "Field of Fire": O'Brien attaches a micro-transporter to the muzzle of a TR-116 rifle and beams a bullet in order to hit a target through a wall. When the bullet re-materializes and hits it's intended target, it ended up having the same kinetic energy as it had when it was first de-materialized.

I mean, how does the transporter destroy, digitize, and then replicate kinetic energy? The simple answer is that it doesn't.
The bullet simply gets phased into energy and continues to travel along in an energy like state (within a second or two) and then it re-materializes on the other side with that same kinetic energy.

I think my fundamental confusion arises from this notion that matter can be turned into energy while at the same time retaining the physical qualities it had as matter - if that is possible perhaps somebody could cite me an example in plain English. It seems a vague, unscientific approach that requires us to say it's impossible, but it's Trek impossible so that's ok. For the record, I really know nothing about quantum mechanics.

The transporter is not producing a subspace corridor for the person to step through intact; its deconstructing and digitising and then sending the energy matrix on a subspace carrier wave and then reconstructing at the other end. I like the Trek science. It makes sense to me and I have no problem with the notion that these reconstructed people think, look, and ARE the real people, even though technically they're not.

With regards to the bullet, I think the Heisenberg compensators allow objects to retain energy otherwise any living being would rematerialise as a corpse.

Being out of phase is a bit of an odd one. I view that as being shifted slightly out this dimension but the people are technically still matter, just matter incapable to interacting with this dimension and possibly only detectable in this dimension as energy in the same way that we have give off a bioelectric field.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Again, you are repeating your theory in irrelevant detail without any claims besides siting "Second Chances" and or twisting or ignoring other examples within Star Trek.

In other words: Besides "Second Chances": if you can't give numerous examples of actual scenes within any other episodes to back up your argument (like I have done), your side of the issue will not hold any weight with fans who choose to look at Star Trek for what it is rather than what you would like it to be.

 

[Luther Sloan]

quantum mechanical laws have NOTHING to do with fictional trekverse episodes

In that case, why does this thread even exist? You guys are trying to fit a square shape (science) into a circle hole (fiction).

If all that matters is Trek's sense of science fiction, then we are left to believe that the person who comes out of the transporter is the exact same person who went in because that's what Star Trek has always implied.

Ryan8bit:

Well said, my friend.

 

[Luther Sloan]

With regards to the bullet, I think the Heisenberg compensators allow objects to retain energy otherwise any living being would rematerialise as a corpse.

Pauln6:

But see. That's just the thing. Kinetic energy really cannot be destroyed, stored as transporter code (or computer energy), and then re-created.

At best it can be phased into an alternate phased energy state so that it can continue along it's trajectory (as kinetic energy) and then be re-phased (re-materialized) back to finish it's course.

Being out of phase is a bit of an odd one. I view that as being shifted slightly out this dimension but the people are technically still matter, just matter incapable to interacting with this dimension and possibly only detectable in this dimension as energy in the same way that we have give off a bioelectric field.

Well, actually there is a phase principle to the transporter. It was mentioned by Reg in "Realm of Fear". Also, we see Reg held in suspension within the matter stream (longer than normal) while his body was de-materialized, too.

Here is a scene from the episode...

_______________________________________________________

GEORDI
Do you think you saw something
during transport?


BARCLAY
When I was returning to the
Enterprise... I could've sworn
I saw something... in the matter
stream.


GEORDI
Something?


BARCLAY
There was phased matter all
around... at first I thought it
was some kind of energy discharge.
But then it flew toward me... and
touched my arm...

But how could anything be in
there...

the molecules flying
apart half-phased.

​

_______________________________________________________

Notice the last sentence? Reg specifically states that the part during the transporter procedure is a half phased process.

Another example of the transporter being a device that phases you during transport is when Kirk, Sisko, and others have used the transporter to gain entry into the Mirror Universe (Mirror Mirror, Thru the Looking Glass, ECT). In other words, if you know the right phase to access that universe's frequency or phase entry. You can gain entry into it. And the transporter has been a very common tool to do this because it already phases a person's physical body into energy for transport.


Side Note:

Oh, and the dematerialization or re-materialization process is simply a part of the phasing process just in case you were wondering.

 

[3D Master]

No, you're dead. When a phaser blasts you are also tuned into energy and sub-atomic particles. Aka, dead.

3D Master:

Wait a minute. Did you just switch sides in this debate? It seems like you were arguing on the other side of the fence just a moment ago, bro.

I switched no sides, I've always been on my own side.

Anyways, to reply to the above:

Not true. Your implication is basically implying that every type of flesh to energy transformation for a character used in science fiction automatically means you are dead and copied. Well, the black female version of Captain Marvel (from Marvel comics) doesn't die when she turns into phased energy and then back to her self again. So this cannot be an all inclusive written in stone assumption.

If she didn't die, then the question is simple; what mechanism was used to keep herself from dying; did her body stay intact in a weird quantum mechanical way, is it illusion, is it just she specifically keeps herself alive in some other way?

If she's not doing this, she's actually killing herself and making her own copy. So won't notice she's doing this, but that's what's going on.

Besides, there is evidence within Star Trek that suggests that you actually don't die within Star Trek (please read below).

That's what I've been saying, but the way this is done, is by making sure the body doesn't actually get destroyed during the transportation process. It remains intact.

The creator of the transporter "Emory Erickson" said that he had disproved the theory that the transporter is a copy machine.

I've never said otherwise.

Also, kinetic energy is something that cannot be copied. It really is not a distinct element or energy source that can be duplicated in such a way. It can only be re-directed or phased at best. And even that is pushing the limits of believability.

Kinetic energy is nothing but a vector and impulse that is inherently part of a particle as it is moving. A transporter moves the entire body, every particle, as is, from one place to another, and that includes any impulse, and speed. If it did not do this your blood and heart would be standing still along with all neurons, all messages from brain to body once you rematerialize; and would thus drop dead. So the kinetic energy is transfered during transportation, whether you like it or not.

In the physical world you would obviously need a brain in order to interact with the physical world. However, when you are digitized or turned into energy to be stored in the transporter buffer: your soul and spirit body remain intact to perceive the transporter process and or allow your mind to be transfered to a Holodeck spy program if there was a transporter malfunction.

There is no such thing as a soul, or spirit body. Barclay could move, because his body remained intact throughout the transportation process.

I mean, there are energy beings in the universe that don't have brains. Who is to say that your transporter trip isn't similar to the existence to one of these energy beings?

Except that you are not an energy being; you're a physical one. If you're existence is like that during transportation, it simply means that there are 2 copies of you and 1 original that dies, the first copy being the energy copy that then gets killed off to form the second copy the bodily being that stands at the intended destination.

The transporter in this case is a double killer.

So every type of phase is defined by what you think it should be. Well, we learn that the body is de-materialized into energy where the mind can exist in an energy like state. This has been shown to us in "Our Man Bashir".

There was no energy-like state, there was a copy of people's brains stored in a computer.

That's because if the copy machine does it's copying correctly, kinetic energy gets copied along with it. If it didn't, then transporting a person would result in them dropping dead; the blood would no longer have its kinetic energy and thus stand still, the same goes for neurons, chemical substances, the heart, etc. etc. Simple answer is that it does. Kinetic energy is simply a vector an attribute of a particle, and it gets recreated along with everything else. In your concept; no. It gets dematerialized and a copy is made.

Wow. do you really believe that kinetic energy is copied, destroyed, digitized, and then recreated somehow?
Really.

That sounds like you are stretching it, man. You either choose to believe what the series says about the transporter or you don't.

No, because like I said, the body doesn't get destroyed during the transportation process. It simply exists both intact, and energy, at the same time. Thus, you can do all the stuff you can only do with energy, without having to destroy the body.

In your idea of the transporter, the kinetic energy must indeed transported. If it doesn't happen, your blood no longer circulates, the brains neurons have stopped and can no longer reach muscles, energy pulses in the brain will be standing still and can't reach the next brain cell, your heart is standing still and is no longer pumping. THAT is what happens if the kinetic energy would not get transferred, you'd drop dead.

In as such, if you demand that kinetic energy cannot be transferred if you dematerialize someone and rematerialize them somewhere else; you're destroying your own hypothesis. In this case, your idea of the transporter can't function because it would kill everyone it transports, leaving only dead bodies at the target site.

 

[T'Girl]

Your sole reason for destroying the original would seem to be to perpetuate a deception that the transporter process requires the death of the original, when it appears that the death of the original is in fact a option.

The 'sole reason' for destroying the original is the fact that the federation doesn't have the technology to 'beam down' without creating a copy at the target location and destroying the original aboard the ship (one does NOT create the copy aboard the ship because this would defeat the whole purpose of the operation - the 'copy' would have to be, in turn, copied to be beamed down anywhere).

In that case what is actual being beamed down? You seem to be saying that there is no matter in the matter stream.

Let go at this from a slighty different direction. In the episode Samaritan Snare, Captain Picard had to have his artificial heart replaced, it was replaced with another artificial heart, because the replicator was incapable of creating a brand new wet human heart that could be implanted in his chest and shocked into beating. There have been cases of Doctor Crusher not being able to replicate certain pharmaceuticals because their molecular structure was too complex for the replicator.

You seem to be saying the the transporter is "replicating" (for want of a better word) an entire living breathing human body, thousands of kilometers away from the ship, at the end of a transporter beam, in the open air, without being surrounded by any kind of replicator equipment, and then being materialize for the very first time as living flesh.

You seem to be saying the copy isn't being "replicated" (but not materialized) on board the ship, surrounded by many tons of equipment and then being sent as energy to the destination.

The 'sole reason' for destroying the original is the fact that the federation doesn't have the technology to 'beam down' without creating a copy at the target location

Briefly taking that as a given, again you're still not stating why the original is deliberately being put to death, when they could simply walk away after being scanned for copying. Yes there would then be two, I get that. But again the death of the original under you hypothesis seem to be an option, not a requirement.

 

[Luther Sloan]

If she didn't die, then the question is simple; what mechanism was used to keep herself from dying; did her body stay intact in a weird quantum mechanical way, is it illusion, is it just she specifically keeps herself alive in some other way?

If she's not doing this, she's actually killing herself and making her own copy. So won't notice she's doing this, but that's what's going on.

3D Master:

So if I never told about the origin of Captain Marvel's powers, you would automatically go with Option A? Talk about limiting our options.

Actually, here is an explanation of her super powers...

"Due to bombardment by extra-dimensional energies, Monica can transform herself into any form of energy within the electromagnetic spectrum. Among the many energy forms she has assumed and is able to control are cosmic rays, gamma rays, X-rays, ultraviolet radiation, visible light, electricity, infrared radiation, microwaves, radio waves, and neutrinos. She apparently accomplished this transformation by mentally shunting the matter of her body into the dimension from which she draws her energy and replacing it with a corresponding amount of energy. Her mind remains in the dimension to control the energy-parcel that has taken the place of her body. By assuming an energy-form, she gains all of that energy's properties."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monica_Rambeau

That's what I've been saying, but the way this is done, is by making sure the body doesn't actually get destroyed during the transportation process. It remains intact.

The physical body is de-constructed in order to be changed into a living energy phase (or state). It later then re-constructs that very same physical matter from the person who is living as energy in the matter stream.

Kinetic energy is nothing but a vector and impulse that is inherently part of a particle as it is moving. A transporter moves the entire body, every particle, as is, from one place to another, and that includes any impulse, and speed. If it did not do this your blood and heart would be standing still along with all neurons, all messages from brain to body once you rematerialize; and would thus drop dead. So the kinetic energy is transfered during transportation, whether you like it or not.

I know kinetic energy can be used in the transporter. I was using DS9's "Field of Fire" as an example of that. I just don't think kinetic energy can be scanned, destroyed, turned into energy and then re-created again. I think the transporter process is more of like a car ride where the person gets phased into energy for a short time of the process.

There is no such thing as a soul, or spirit body. Barclay could move, because his body remained intact throughout the transportation process. Except that you are not an energy being; you're a physical one. If you're existence is like that during transportation, it simply means that there are 2 copies of you and 1 original that dies, the first copy being the energy copy that then gets killed off to form the second copy the bodily being that stands at the intended destination.

No. The episode specifically states that Reg was de-materialized during the transporter suspension process. Watch the episode again and pay close attention to it.

It was either Reg's soul, spirit body, or mental representation of himself when he was existing as brief energy.

There was no energy-like state, there was a copy of people's brains stored in a computer.

Reg was suspended in the transporter. He was energy and not physical in any way. He could move to a certain degree in the energy matter stream. He could think. He was energy. Yeah, that's an energy like state if you ask me.

 

[3D Master]

If she didn't die, then the question is simple; what mechanism was used to keep herself from dying; did her body stay intact in a weird quantum mechanical way, is it illusion, is it just she specifically keeps herself alive in some other way?

If she's not doing this, she's actually killing herself and making her own copy. So won't notice she's doing this, but that's what's going on.

3D Master:

So if I never told about the origin of Captain Marvel's powers, you would automatically go with Option A? Talk about limiting our options.

Actually, here is an explanation of her super powers...

"Due to bombardment by extra-dimensional energies, Monica can transform herself into any form of energy within the electromagnetic spectrum. Among the many energy forms she has assumed and is able to control are cosmic rays, gamma rays, X-rays, ultraviolet radiation, visible light, electricity, infrared radiation, microwaves, radio waves, and neutrinos. She apparently accomplished this transformation by mentally shunting the matter of her body into the dimension from which she draws her energy and replacing it with a corresponding amount of energy. Her mind remains in the dimension to control the energy-parcel that has taken the place of her body. By assuming an energy-form, she gains all of that energy's properties."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monica_Rambeau

Ah, so the body doesn't actually get turned into energy at all! It's put in safe storage in another dimension REMAINING COMPLETELY INTACT.

That's what I've been saying, but the way this is done, is by making sure the body doesn't actually get destroyed during the transportation process. It remains intact.

The physical body is de-constructed in order to be changed into a living energy phase (or state). It later then re-constructs that very same physical matter from the person who is living as energy in the matter stream.

No, it is NOT deconstructed. The body remains entirely intact. For transportation process, the body is both the physical body and formless energy at the same time.

If you're deconstructed, you're dead. And it doesn't matter if you're made of the very same physical matter, you're dead and there's now a copy, whatever that copy is made of matters not.

I know kinetic energy can be used in the transporter. I was using DS9's "Field of Fire" as an example of that. I just don't think kinetic energy can be scanned, destroyed, turned into energy and then re-created again. I think the transporter process is more of like a car ride where the person gets phased into energy for a short time of the process.

If the kinetic energy does not get transported along with it, you're dead at the end of it.

And the only way the transporter is like a car ride, is if the body remains intact throughout the process. When you get it in a car and drive around, you're body does not get destroyed. You simply step into something, remain intact, and get it out somewhere else.

There is no such thing as a soul, or spirit body. Barclay could move, because his body remained intact throughout the transportation process. Except that you are not an energy being; you're a physical one. If you're existence is like that during transportation, it simply means that there are 2 copies of you and 1 original that dies, the first copy being the energy copy that then gets killed off to form the second copy the bodily being that stands at the intended destination.

No. The episode specifically states that Reg was de-materialized during the transporter suspension process. Watch the episode again and pay close attention to it.

It was either Reg's soul, spirit body, or mental representation of himself when he was existing as brief energy.

And de-materialized does NOT mean the body is destroyed and reduced to JUST energy. It means the body exists in a weird quantum flux where it is BOTH the physical body, AND energy AT THE SAME TIME.

How often do I have to repeat this? The physical body remaining intact is the only way the transporter doesn't kill people. There's no soul, no spirit body, and a mental representation doesn't explain how the people they pulled out remained alive and could be re-materialized.

There was no energy-like state, there was a copy of people's brains stored in a computer.

Reg was suspended in the transporter. He was energy and not physical in any way. He could move to a certain degree in the energy matter stream. He could think. He was energy. Yeah, that's an energy like state if you ask me.

Again; no, he was not just energy, he was physically intact AND energy AT THE SAME TIME. He could move and think, because he was intact. The people could be pulled out because their bodies remained fully intact. If they did not, the transporter wouldn't be able to rematerialize them, because there would be no material, no body, no information to rematerialize them from.

The body remaining intact and be energy at the same time in a quantum flux state is the only way all the episodes make sense and people don't get killed every time they step into a transporter.

 

[Pauln6]

But see. That's just the thing. Kinetic energy really cannot be destroyed, stored as transporter code (or computer energy), and then re-created.

At best it can be phased into an alternate phased energy state so that it can continue along it's trajectory (as kinetic energy) and then be re-phased (re-materialized) back to finish it's course.

Being out of phase is a bit of an odd one. I view that as being shifted slightly out this dimension but the people are technically still matter, just matter incapable to interacting with this dimension and possibly only detectable in this dimension as energy in the same way that we have give off a bioelectric field.

Well, actually there is a phase principle to the transporter. It was mentioned by Reg in "Realm of Fear". Also, we see Reg held in suspension within the matter stream (longer than normal) while his body was de-materialized, too.


Notice the last sentence? Reg specifically states that the part during the transporter procedure is a half phased process.

Another example of the transporter being a device that phases you during transport is when Kirk, Sisko, and others have used the transporter to gain entry into the Mirror Universe (Mirror Mirror, Thru the Looking Glass, ECT). In other words, if you know the right phase to access that universe's frequency or phase entry. You can gain entry into it. And the transporter has been a very common tool to do this because it already phases a person's physical body into energy for transport.

Side Note:

Oh, and the dematerialization or re-materialization process is simply a part of the phasing process just in case you were wondering.

I think the purpose of the Heisenberg compensators is to re-impart energy lost as part of the transportation process. Ordinarily I would agree that kinetic energy is lost (or NuKirk would have splatted on the transporter pad) but I suppose the compensators can be used to add up to a certain amount back in. This is another example of writers playing it a bit fast and loose with the tech for the sake of a plot point. If it is possible to reimpart a large amount of energy everbody would be transporting missiles to attack unshielded ships and planets. I think the compensators must be the cause on a small scale level.

None of the evidence points to the individuals being phased intact, although there is a 'phase transition coil' which adds weight to the theory that the matter is phased at the point that it is disassembled, and which would explain why it is possible to hop into an alternative dimension at this point and why Barclay could 'see' phased matter at the moment he was being dissassembled. The whole plot of Realm of Fear plot is a bit of an aberration in the history of transporters so we are trying to use that one episode to clarify the other 400+ epsisodes.

Still, phasing a living consciousness into another dimension capable of retaining a coherent pattern an instant before the physical body is dissassembled is an appealing compromise for me. However, no attempt has ever been made to mention or further explain that other dimension so I think it's tenuous. I also think that we're required to view 'consciousness' as separate from personality and memory, which are both physical traits so that this theory can be reconciled with the New Voyages/Phase II story where an earlier scan of Sulu has to be used to restore him, thus leading to memory loss.

This still doesn't explain where Riker 2's 'consciousness' originates from but we can make up some technobabble like 'phased dimensional echo amplified by the electromgnetic energy of the atmosphere and coalescing within the second ACB'. In this case he must be a true copy. How does this compare to the consciousness trapped in subspace in 'Daedalus'?

I still prefer the cold hard scientific truth of the person being an identical copy though. It makes the Trek universe seem comfortingly subversive.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Your sole reason for destroying the original would seem to be to perpetuate a deception that the transporter process requires the death of the original, when it appears that the death of the original is in fact a option.

The 'sole reason' for destroying the original is the fact that the federation doesn't have the technology to 'beam down' without creating a copy at the target location and destroying the original aboard the ship (one does NOT create the copy aboard the ship because this would defeat the whole purpose of the operation - the 'copy' would have to be, in turn, copied to be beamed down anywhere).

In that case what is actual being beamed down? You seem to be saying that there is no matter in the matter stream.

Let go at this from a slighty different direction. In the episode Samaritan Snare, Captain Picard had to have his artificial heart replaced, it was replaced with another artificial heart, because the replicator was incapable of creating a brand new wet human heart that could be implanted in his chest and shocked into beating. There have been cases of Doctor Crusher not being able to replicate certain pharmaceuticals because their molecular structure was too complex for the replicator.

You seem to be saying the the transporter is "replicating" (for want of a better word) an entire living breathing human body, thousands of kilometers away from the ship, at the end of a transporter beam, in the open air, without being surrounded by any kind of replicator equipment, and then being materialize for the very first time as living flesh.

You seem to be saying the copy isn't being "replicated" (but not materialized) on board the ship, surrounded by many tons of equipment and then being sent as energy to the destination.

Yes. The magic of 'Heisenberg compensators' and 'pattern buffers', I guess.

You know, T'Girl, our bodies are made up of water, carbon and a few other cheap elements. What makes us special is the information embedded in these elements - that's what makes us ALIVE.

Star Trek makes clear that the body is 'dematerialised' and then, in order to 'materialise' the copy, you need the information from the 'pattern buffers'. Once the body 'dematerialises', it looses this information aka DIES - that's why one needs 'pattern buffers' to retain the information in the first place.

Dematerialising by transporter is equivalent to dematerialising by phaser - it kills you, reducing your body to a few random atoms/particles.
Afterwards, at the 'beam down' site, a copy is constructed - it could be from new atoms/particles or the dematrialised atoms/particles. This doesn't change the fact that the original is dead - it was vaporized on the transporter pad.

The 'sole reason' for destroying the original is the fact that the federation doesn't have the technology to 'beam down' without creating a copy at the target location

Briefly taking that as a given, again you're still not stating why the original is deliberately being put to death, when they could simply walk away after being scanned for copying. Yes there would then be two, I get that. But again the death of the original under you hypothesis seem to be an option, not a requirement.

O, yes - the transporter can make two - or more - copies (during the time in which the pattern buffers can retain the information - they can't retain the information inndefinitely. If you use DS9's memory storage, on the other hand, you have all the time you need DS9:Our man Bashir).

Why isn't this performed?
Practicality - the transporter is there to easily transport a person; making 'copies' of the person would be an inconvenience.

Morality. Yes, I know. Making copies of a person is considered 'playing with life' aka immoral.
When you makes only one copy, you can delude yourself that this is the same person as the one killed during 'dematerialising'. This is what federation citizens/star trek sentients are taught in school and what they believe.
Make two copies and one can't delude oneself anymore.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

quantum mechanical laws have NOTHING to do with fictional trekverse episodes

In that case, why does this thread even exist? You guys are trying to fit a square shape (science) into a circle hole (fiction).

If all that matters is Trek's sense of science fiction, then we are left to believe that the person who comes out of the transporter is the exact same person who went in because that's what Star Trek has always implied.

Ryan8bit:

Well said, my friend.

"You guys are trying to fit a square shape (science) into a circle hole (fiction)."
Exactly. And one of the consequences of this 'fitting' is that the transporter DOES kill the original and make a copy.

"all that matters is Trek's sense of science fiction"
What are you talking about? My posts make clear I don't have this view - I always took into account the real quantum mechanical laws and logic.
You should tell that to Luther Sloan, for example, who ignores them (his definition of the concept of 'copy' is especially amusing) because they don't fit his 'vision'.

 

[Pauln6]

You know, T'Girl, our bodies are made up of water, carbon and a few other cheap elements. What makes us special is the information embedded in these elements - that's what makes us ALIVE.

Star Trek makes clear that the body is 'dematerialised' and then, in order to 'materialise' the copy, you need the information from the 'pattern buffers'. Once the body 'dematerialises', it looses this information aka DIES - that's why one needs 'pattern buffers' to retain the information in the first place.

Dematerialising by transporter is equivalent to dematerialising by phaser - it kills you, reducing your body to a few random atoms/particles.
Afterwards, at the 'beam down' site, a copy is constructed - it could be from new atoms/particles or the dematrialised atoms/particles. This doesn't change the fact that the original is dead - it was vaporized on the transporter pad.

O, yes - the transporter can make two - or more - copies (during the time in which the pattern buffers can retain the information - they can't retain the information inndefinitely. If you use DS9's memory storage, on the other hand, you have all the time you need DS9:Our man Bashir).

Morality. Yes, I know. Making copies of a person is considered 'playing with life' aka immoral.

When you makes only one copy, you can delude yourself that this is the same person as the one killed during 'dematerialising'. This is what federation citizens/star trek sentients are taught in school and what they believe.
Make two copies and one can't delude oneself anymore.

There really isn't an elegant explanation but the above explanation is my favourite. People arguing to the contrary seem to be under the illusion that our 'life' isn't linked to our physical form. I can believe that an energy version of a person's brain could be replicated but all it would be would be memory impulses and thought processes - since our personality is linked to our physical DNA, the energy copy cannot possibly be the 'whole' person. In fact I find it comforting that 24th century people view the copy as the same person - it's one of the few moral decisions that makes it feel like a colder, more scientific and practical future and not all mamby pamby.

There is no easy answer to explain why a 'spare copy' isn't kept in a stasis unit just in case the away team dies. Sure it would take extra energy but the ship has energy to spare or it could never use emergency transporters. It isn't a memory issue if people can be digitally recreated in the holodeck (or at least there would be enough memory to store an away team). Given that the pattern in the buffer degrades so quickly I think it is the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle that prevents 'live' patterns being stored long term. Of course this leads us to question how the uncertainty principle can be overcome in Relics and in Voyager with a bit of extra power and some technobabble.

I think that making copies (whether clones or transporter copies) is illegal within the Federation with the exception of the Arcturians who use it as their method of reproduction. However, once a copy obtains consciousness, it possesses all the legal rights of an original - it is still a crime to kill a clone and this is probably why they don't make spare copies to keep in stasis - what do you do if the away team comes back alive after all?

I'm pretty sure that the process is meant to be largely instantaneous to prevent the subject dying before a 'live' pattern can be stored - that's why Realm of Fear looks apocryphal to me - it seems to monkey with the transporter tech that we've come to know a bit too much for my tastes, although I think we do have to distinguish Barclay's perception of events against the actual physical process.

 

[Pauln6]

This argument isn't new either. Here are some in support:

http://lofi.forum.physorg.com/The-Transporter-In-Star-Trek_904.html

"We can already teleport photons, but what gets teleported is the photon's properties, not the actual photons themselves. Personally, I don't think that there will ever be a conventional use for converting energy into matter because of the amount of energy contained in one human being. Think about it: if one human can produce thousands of hiroshimas bombs, then you would need thousands of atom bombs worth of energy to create a turkey sandwich. That just doesn't seem practical to me. If that amount of energy were to be released when turning a man into energy, well let's just say there wouldn't be much left of anything for a few thousand miles!

Such conversions of particles to energy are called annihilations, that is, they are like explosions: the explosive material is completely destroyed and no memory of its original form remains. Furthermore, the second law of thermodynamics tells us that in any conversion of matter, some energy is inevitably lost. However, you could compensate by disintegrating some rocks and adding in that energy too.

In my view, when your body is converted into energy, you're destroyed, hence, you die. End of story. What comes out of the teleporter is an exact copy, with all your memories etc, and no knowledge that it isn't you, but it isn't."

"I would put a greater hope in processes where quantum tunnelling is involved where at least photons can tunnel through space as if it doesn't exist. Some of the newer negative dielectric substances have been described, as optical "antimatter" may be useful in this process. Significant optical teleportation has occurred without the process of creation and annihilation. Considering that we are all made up of "de Broglie waves" there is some hope that a physical being may be able to quantum tunnel across space without being destroyed. This has nothing to do with the "nonsense" of wormholes. This is a bench top experiment that can be done right now (and has been - at least optically!)."

"the atoms that make you up are constantly leaving you, to be replaced by the atoms of the stuff on your plate, and the stuff you breath in. so what is different if all of your atoms are replaced all at once?"

http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/trek/7.html
"
What are souls? Matter, or energy, or an emergent property thereof?
Who needs them? They aren't necessary for physical existence, life, happiness, or Turing-testable intelligence; personality, memory etc are mere biochemistry (hence Pulasky's patent mindwipe: "Pen Pals", STTNG2). The Ferengi can't sell them, the Borg can't use them to power reactors (by embryo-farm soul-vampirism)... so what good are they?
What things have souls? Data? Data while deactivated? Frozen bodies? Ova? Embryos? Babies? Wesley? Morons? Neanderthals? Chimps? Tribbles? Viruses? Brain-parasites? Symbiotes? Copies of the Moriarty program? How many souls has a two-headed man got? Or a split personality? Or a pregnant woman? Or a Borg vessel? Or one Borg? Or Locutus? Or Q?
Mark-one TPs are the perfect experimental apparatus for testing these questions; so why aren't the answers common knowledge in the Star Trek Universe? Or at least, why does nobody tell TP-phobes that souls aren't affected?


The big problem for dualism is: what causes a soul to appear? Deanna can detect both Worf and Data, so it's not just human embryology; which implies the answer "the creation of any suitable brain". Hmmm: doesn't this include copies of Data's brain assembled by a replicator? For all we know, Dr Sung built him using a TP in the first place! And if any brain created by TP matter-to-energy assembly summons a fresh soul... where does the disintegrated original's soul go? Won't it assume it's dead?!
Or do TPs send "bereaved" souls a sort of forwarding address ("Don't worry, your body's over here")? If so, it's another gross subsystem... "Oy, Romulan soul! Your body went that-a-way! Wesley, you're promoted; kill yourself and transmigrate your soul into yonder Romulan commander's empty carcase! Or on second thoughts, let me help - take that!" (So how did anybody discover the need for this extra TP subsystem, then?)"

Wheeee, this is actually a fun debate!

 

[Luther Sloan]

Ah, so the body doesn't actually get turned into energy at all! It's put in safe storage in another dimension REMAINING COMPLETELY INTACT.

3D Master:

Actually, I am not sure if "Dimensional Shift" would be the right word for it. The Folded Space Transporter moves objects by dimensional shift and was regarded as a harmful way of travel. With the traditional transporter: Your body gets taken apart (molecule by molecule) as it transforms into a half phased energy like state within the matter stream.

Folded Space Transporter:
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Folded-space_transporter

Matter Stream:
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Matter_stream

No, it is NOT deconstructed. The body remains entirely intact. For transportation process, the body is both the physical body and formless energy at the same time.

Yes, you are de-constructed physically (unfortunately). In Realm of Fear it states this very clearly...

_____________________________________________________

BARCLAY
I usually manage to avoid it
somehow. You wouldn't believe
how many hours I've logged on
shuttlecrafts...
The thought of being deconstructed
molecule by molecule. It's more
than I can stand...



BARCLAY
Ever since I was a child, I've
been scared to death that if I
ever dematerialized... I wouldn't
come back whole again.
I know it sounds crazy.



TROI
There's nothing crazy about it,
Reg -- you are being taken apart
molecule by molecule. You're not
the first person to have anxiety
about transporting.

​

_____________________________________________________

If you're deconstructed, you're dead. And it doesn't matter if you're made of the very same physical matter, you're dead and there's now a copy, whatever that copy is made of matters not.

If the kinetic energy does not get transported along with it, you're dead at the end of it.

Not necessarily. Let's look at the super powers for the comic book character called "Grunge" from DC comics (Wildstorm Imprint)...

"Molecular Absorption: ability to molecularly bond with anything he comes in contact with. Once he bonds with an object he takes on its physical characteristics. For example, if he bonds with steel he gains increased strength and durability. The limits of his absorption ability were never revealed. He at times was able to meld with the ground beneath him sinking his hands at one place and having them come up at another place. He has also absorbed the properties of sand, from sand in his boot. Instead of gaining the properties of a rock, as sand is just small stones, he gained a form not unlike Marvel's Sandman-- a being comprised of small grains which he can manipulate in a variety of ways. This means all or any part of his body can transform into stone, metal, or even gelatin. He has also demonstrated a limited ability to transform other people as well. The full extent of his powers was never fully addressed, with certain abilities seeming to appear out of nowhere and cease to be used soon after. It is revealed that he can actually assume the shape of objects he absorbs.
Molecular Absorption Extension
Molecular Form
Molecular Phasing
Healing Factor: extreme ability to heal himself. In the first mini series his arm can be seen being shattered, but shortly thereafter, it comes back together. He has been shot repeatedly and the bullets were rejected from his body. He seems to have a remarkable healing capacity, but a reason for this is never addressed. One theory is that he bonds with the embedded bullets, an ability shown when he was able to pass through a wall."

Now, see. His original flesh like body does not die every time he absorbs a new material. His molecules simply absorb and change into whatever material he is touching. In fact, even the all powerful beings known as the Q can alter or manipulate molecules at will. The transporter is a lot like a molecule manipulator or transformer. It simply allows your physical body and it's kinetic energy to seamlessly continue on in an uninterrupted energy like phase or state. Now, you could call this another dimension. An energy like dimension where the deconstructed physical body continues on as energy until it is re-materialized (or re-phased). But does the physical body die because it is taken apart as it gets phased or turned into a energy? No. The mind and the body still exists as energy in the matter stream or the transporter buffer and a person can appear to be fully aware of themselves while in the matter stream (with their bodies already de-constructed) (Like in: "Realm of Fear").

And the only way the transporter is like a car ride, is if the body remains intact throughout the process. When you get it in a car and drive around, you're body does not get destroyed. You simply step into something, remain intact, and get it out somewhere else.

The car ride concept still works if your physical journey continues on as uninterrupted energy (where you are still aware of yourself while driving but as energy) and then back again (in the physical world).

And de-materialized does NOT mean the body is destroyed and reduced to JUST energy. It means the body exists in a weird quantum flux where it is BOTH the physical body, AND energy AT THE SAME TIME.

It says you are in a half phased state. This could mean many things. However, we do have to take into account that you are being de-constructed molecule by molecule like Troi, said, though.

How often do I have to repeat this? The physical body remaining intact is the only way the transporter doesn't kill people. There's no soul, no spirit body, and a mental representation doesn't explain how the people they pulled out remained alive and could be re-materialized.

Think outside the box. Or in this case, the transporter.
Every thing you think you know about the normal rules of science could be broken because it is a fictional technological device.

Again; no, he was not just energy, he was physically intact AND energy AT THE SAME TIME. He could move and think, because he was intact. The people could be pulled out because their bodies remained fully intact. If they did not, the transporter wouldn't be able to rematerialize them, because there would be no material, no body, no information to rematerialize them from.

The transporter beam is made out of energy. The whole point of the beam is to capture something physical and then convert it into energy so it can send it over a certain distance. It is not a dimensional shift transporter or a device that will allow your physical body to remain intact during transport.

When Reg was suspended in the matter stream, he was converted into an energy like state where he could move around as if he was an energy being. He simply could react and touch those other energy beings within the matter stream because they were of the same type of energy phased state as he was (See TNG's "Next Phase").

The body remaining intact and be energy at the same time in a quantum flux state is the only way all the episodes make sense and people don't get killed every time they step into a transporter.

Think of the molecules that get de-constructed as if they were transforming into an uninterrupted energy like state where they could be converted back (or re-constructed back to it's normal physical form again flawlessly). So the body and or kinetic energy never really dies (although it does leave the physical world) because it is simply transformed or continues on magically in an energy like state.

Look at the fictional concept of parallel realities or universes. They are not real by any means. So it isn't implausible to say that a physical body & it's kinetic energy cannot be de-constructed to enter into a phased like energy state and then back again either.

 

[3D Master]

Ah, so the body doesn't actually get turned into energy at all! It's put in safe storage in another dimension REMAINING COMPLETELY INTACT.

3D Master:

Actually, I am not sure if "Dimensional Shift" would be the right word for it. The Folded Space Transporter moves objects by dimensional shift and was regarded as a harmful way of travel. With the traditional transporter: Your body gets taken apart (molecule by molecule) as it transforms into a half phased energy like state within the matter stream.

That was the answer to Marvel's super power.

No, it is NOT deconstructed. The body remains entirely intact. For transportation process, the body is both the physical body and formless energy at the same time.

Yes, you are de-constructed physically (unfortunately). In Realm of Fear it states this very clearly...

_____________________________________________________

BARCLAY
I usually manage to avoid it
somehow. You wouldn't believe
how many hours I've logged on
shuttlecrafts...
The thought of being deconstructed
molecule by molecule. It's more
than I can stand...



BARCLAY
Ever since I was a child, I've
been scared to death that if I
ever dematerialized... I wouldn't
come back whole again.
I know it sounds crazy.



TROI
There's nothing crazy about it,
Reg -- you are being taken apart
molecule by molecule. You're not
the first person to have anxiety
about transporting.

​

_____________________________________________________

Again, just because they fail to tell you the full story, because it's cumbersome to do so, and simply use the short hand "dematerialized" and "deconstructed" doesn't mean it doesn't happen the way I've described it. It's the only it makes sense without the transporter killing you.

<snip>

I don't care about comic book super powers, seriously.

The car ride concept still works if your physical journey continues on as uninterrupted energy (where you are still aware of yourself while driving but as energy) and then back again (in the physical world).

This only works if the energy is also your intact physical body AT THE SAME TIME.

It says you are in a half phased state. This could mean many things. However, we do have to take into account that you are being de-constructed molecule by molecule like Troi, confirmed back to Reg, though.

That's the way to describe what happens to; you're entire body is kept intact, and that's transportation process can happen molecule by molecule, photon by photon; the energy/molecule double state being moved, without the destroying the body.

Think outside the box. Or in this case, the transporter.
Every thing you think you know about the normal rules of science could be broken because it is a fictional technological device.

In that case, there's no point to debate anything. The Enterprise achieves FTL by big rocked boosters.

Again; no, he was not just energy, he was physically intact AND energy AT THE SAME TIME. He could move and think, because he was intact. The people could be pulled out because their bodies remained fully intact. If they did not, the transporter wouldn't be able to rematerialize them, because there would be no material, no body, no information to rematerialize them from.

The transporter beam is made out of energy. The whole point of the beam is to capture something physical and then convert it into energy so it can send it over a certain distance. It is not a dimensional shift transporter or a device that will allow your physical body to remain intact during transport.

There was nothing physical left, according to you, for the transporter to latch onto. Those people that Barclay and the rest grabbed, weren't physical bodies according to you, they were just a meaningless collection of energy. The transporter has no patter, no blue print, no nothing to know how remake them properly.

You're way of looking at this, breaks apart.

When Reg was suspended in the matter stream, he was converted into an energy like state where he could move around as if he was an energy being.

Yes, and this energy-like sate is a quantum flux where he is both the energy and himself physically, at the same time; which is what allowed him to move.

He simply could react and touch those other energy beings within the matter stream because they were of the same type of energy phased state as he was (See TNG's "Next Phase").

Yes, a quantum-foam where they are both energy and physically their bodies, at the same time.

The body remaining intact and be energy at the same time in a quantum flux state is the only way all the episodes make sense and people don't get killed every time they step into a transporter.

Think of the molecules that get de-constructed as if they were transforming into an uninterrupted energy like state where they could be converted back (or re-constructed back to it's normal physical form again flawlessly). So the body and or kinetic energy never really dies (although it does leave the physical world) because it is simply transformed or continues on magically in an energy like state.

This isn't fantasy, there's no magic, this is Science Fiction. Things don't magically happen. And yes, they can be reconstructed back to it's normal physical form again flawlessly, but in your hypothesis on the function of the transporter, they're dead. And what is reconstructed is not the guy that died to make that energy form. The reconstructed being, is a copy of the original.

Look at the fictional concept of parallel realities or universes. They are not real by any means. So it isn't implausible to say that a physical body & it's kinetic energy cannot be de-constructed to enter into a phased like energy state and then back again either.

Uh, yeah, sorry, they are very likely real. They are genuine scientific theories. Our universe is a membrane vibrating in a hyper-dimension amongst many others. Indeed, there's a good chance we'll be using that very fact to start our own universe, start our own big bang, and essentially elevate ourselves to status of gods. And there are multiple pieces of evidence, that depending on your interpretation of them, indeed show that multiple parallel universes exist.

And again, I never said it wasn't possible, quite the contrary, I've said it is very possible. Yes, you can turn a physical body into energy and then back again in a body. However, this process kills the person, and produces and exact duplicate.