What happened to the Female Changeling after the war?

[Timo]

Aside from that, though, brush up on your history. The losers don't get to dictate terms at the end of a war.

Speaking of history, did the winning nation of the Bay of Pigs battle get to dictate terms on the losing nation? That's more or less the magnitude of the Alpha victory over the Dominion...

Nonsense, the Dominion lost the War the moment the Cardassians turned on them.

Don't confuse the Dominion with the Dominion Expeditionary Force on the Alpha side (let's say DEF for short). The DEF was defeated militarily. The Dominion was brought to its knees with the bioweapon. But once the cure was handed over, the Dominion no longer was disadvantaged or "defeated" in any way. The DEF may have remained "defeated" at that point, assuming that the Alpha powers had somehow managed to disarm it. But if the DEF said "no, we won't disarm even if we agree to stop fighting", the Alpha powers couldn't really do anything about it. If they tried to force the issue, they'd die in scores, perhaps defeating the DEF but consequently losing out to the Dominion.

The female changeling ordered the Jem Hadar to stop because the enlightenment she experienced in her link with Odo.

And Hitler committed suicide because he had a sudden bout of conscience.

Even if she claimed the above, we shouldn't believe her. Of course, she doesn't claim it, and none of the characters buys it, either. She made a simple deal and that was that.

I don't understand what a mutually agreed upon act act of war is in regards to this subject. Mutually would imply 2 or more sides agreeing that it was an act of war. Who are the 2 sides that agreed on that? From Sisko's perspective, this was an act of self-defense.

From Sisko's perspective, the mining was many things. An act of self-defense, of course. An exciting new prospect for victory, sure. A day's work, by all means. And an act of war. Sisko was the very first person to declare that the mining would inevitably launch an open war; in other words, Sisko thought that the mining would be an act of war. And it was clear to Sisko and the audience that Weouyn thought the very same thing, despite his insincere backpedaling.

I think kidnapping a military leader of a sovereign state and then replacing him with an imposter who starts a war that kills millions and then later attempting to destroy an entire solar system with an inhabited planet in it is a little more than killing by proxy or simply shady.

However, you are not the Federation. What the Federation thought of those things is "not worth going to war over". In other words, "not an act of war" - de facto, that is. And since we are discussing two different interstellar empires that do not share a legal base, de jure is rather irrelevant.

It seems given that the Federation turned the other cheek not because it approved of the Dominion actions, but because Starfleet was not yet ready for war. That doesn't alter the factual setup where attempted nova-bombing Bajor B'hava'el was not an agreed act of war yet attempted mining of the wormhole was.

What's missed by most is that the Dominion doesn't own the Gamma Quadrant. They have their designated borders and the Federation and others from the AQ only violated it once, to seek peaceful first contact.

That is the Federation view of things. The Dominion view was clearly stated in "Jem'Hadar": any intrusion of the Gamma Quadrant through the wormhole is a direct aggression towards the Dominion, quite regardless of where the intruder heads after clearing the wormhole.

Federation lawyers could discuss jurisdiction issues till the cows come home, but the relevance of jurisdiction is zero. When the Soviets deployed missiles in Cuba, the US didn't have a legal leg to stand on in opposing that move. Nevertheless, the US acted in self-defense, and made it clear that they would define the right and wrong, the crime and the punishment, on this issue where juris-my-diction was totally lacking. The actions of the US in that situation were no different from the actions of the Dominion, except in minor details such as the number of lives lost in driving home the point.

The Caribbean is in the US sphere of influence, irrelevant of national borders. The Dominion declared that wormhole traffic (including both ends of the wormhole itself) is in its sphere of influence. The Federation disrespected that declaration at its own peril, just as the Soviets did when deploying their missiles. And the Federation could just as well have chosen to respect the declaration, exactly like the Soviets could have chosen not to deploy a nuclear-ballistic threat in Cuba.

An act of rank bullying? Sure. But what does that string of words have to do with anything? Calling the Dominion names, or soothing them with diplomatic syrup, would not alter the basic facts of the matter: that the Dominion had a sphere of influence it would defend with lethal force, and that the Federation had ambitions on a sphere of influence that would conflict with the Dominion's. One side or the other would have to back down, but neither would have the faintest hope of a "legal basis" or "right of way" on the issue, except from their own bigoted viewpoint.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CaptainHawk1]

^^^This a fun debate. I'll get back at ya later.

-Shawn

 

[Sci]

CaptainHawk1 said:

Not really. The Republic of Bajor owns and has the legal right to control the Alpha Quadrant terminus of the Bajoran Wormhole, not the Dominion. Ergo, when the Federation (in the form of Captain Sisko) had the AQ terminus mined, he legally committed an act of war against the Republic of Bajor, not the Dominion. The Dominion had a treaty of neutrality with Bajor, so they had no legal right to intervene in what should have been a Federation-Bajoran conflict. (Further, the Bajoran government didn't really object to the Federation's mining of the Wormhole, they only pretended to -- so, really, the act of war against Bajor was de jure, not de facto.)

Having a hard time swallowing that. What's neglected here is the fact that Starfleet and the Federation were the administrators of the station (and the fact that Bajor was a protectorate of the Federation) and hence were hired to represent the interests of the Bajorans. The government of Bajor never objected nor even feigned objection to the mining of the Wormhole entrance

Yes, they did. Remember how Major Kira said that she had to officially lodge an objection to Capt. Sisko's course of action before joining in on it? That was political. Bajor was feigning opposition to the Federation's mining of the Wormhole so as to help maintain a pretense of neutrality.

and the Non-agression pact between the Bajorans and the Dominion was signed near the end of the completeion of said mining.

No, it was signed before.

In fact, I believethat it would be safe to say that Sisko (Prime Directive and all. administrative role on the station, etc.) could not have mined that wormhole entrance without the approval/consent of the Bajoran government.

Not legally. Which is why the Federation's mining of the Wormhole was (technically) illegal and an act of war against Bajor. (Not that it mattered, since Bajor unofficially supported the Federation's choices -- but it was unofficial.)

Starfleet entered Dominion space once without their permission, and did so with the intent of attempting to peacefully contact the Dominion government to negotiate peace.

Very good point. What's missed by most is that the Dominion doesn't own the Gamma Quadrant.

Exactly. They don't own the entire GQ, nor did they claim to -- they just decided they weren't going to allow AQers in it. Which makes about as much sense as, say, the People's Republic of China declaring that it's no longer going to allow Westerners in Asia.

They have their designated borders and the Federation and others from the AQ only violated it once, to seek peaceful first contact. What got the Founders nervous was the AQ's solids proximity to their space because they're a bunch of xenophobic nuts.

Yup!

The Federation first knowlingly trespassed in "Jem'Hadar", when the Odyssey was sent through the wormhole against the explicit notice of the Dominion that the Gamma side was their sovereign territory.

Not exactly. The Dominion never made any territorial claims over the Gamma Quadrant terminus of the Bajoran Wormhole. They simply declared that they would not allow Alpha Quadranters to be in the Gamma Quadrant anymore, and would use force in response to such a presence. They never made any territorial claims. It would be the equivalent of the United States declaring that it would no longer allow European citizens to be present in the Americas; it's not a claim of ownership of all of North and South America, but, rather, an act of rank bullying.

Brilliant. Better than I could have explained it. I still don't buy the whole "act of war against the Bajorans by mining the wormhole" theory but you are right on Sci with your analysis of the Dominion's territorial claims. Everyone assumes that the Dominion runs the whole Quadrant, they didn't and that was never expressed nor implied.

Gracias!

 

[CaptainHawk1]

Sci, Go back and watch Call to Arms because I did before I posted. Kira objected to Sisko not turning the station over to her government, not the mining of the wormhole. Also my timeline is correct regarding the non-agression pact and the mining.

-Shawn

 

[Timo]

I wonder... What was the status of the Bajoran-Cardassian peace treaty worked out in "Life Support" at that point? Defunct? Still in force despite changes of leadership at Cardassia?

What sort of relevance would that treaty have to military actions involving Bajor and/or Cardassia? The treaty would be bound to have a clause or two about the wormhole - how could it not? Did we ever get any idea of what those clauses might be? There must have been something there about who gets rights of passage and how, and who owns the Alpha and Gamma ends.

If the clauses worked against Dukat, he would of course denounce the treaty. But if they supported his designs, and the Dominion interests... Then there would be a legal foothold for the Dominion.

Timo Saloniemi