What happened to the Female Changeling after the war?

[Jono]

yammerhead said:

rofeta said:

The Founders are extremely paranoid. They pretty much believe because of what happened to them in the past that they cannot peacefully coexist with solids and therefore the only way for them to be safe is if they can exert their will over any solids they find.

So after thousands of years of this successful policy they find out that is an area of space that contains four large solid empires that are aggressive and at just about on par with Dominion technology. Given their paranoid nature you can see how they would consider this a huge threat and one that should be dealt with promptly.

But the Dominion didn't deal with the threat. They called it quits and went home--and left their viceroy in the Alpha Quadrant for punishment. Unfortunately, the decisiveness of the final battle over Cardassia didn't ring true...the war ended because it was the series finale. To place it in a historical context, it's like declaring the Pacific war over at Midway...there was still plenty of fight left in the Japanese.

But unlike Midway the Founder surrendered her forces to the alliance. Once the Jem'Hadar had the orders they would not fight. The Cardassians had switched sides so that only leaves the Breen and since they are members of the Dominion they also have to surrender.

Which brings up an interesting question as to what they did about the Breen. Its a sovereign power that willingly chose to join the Dominion what rights do they (the alliance) have to say "no you can't be part of the Dominion"? Though with the war over the Breen might have just decided to leave the Dominion anyway.

There is the potential for continuing conflict but between the Breen and Cardassians seeing as the Breen were given Cardassian territories. The Cardassians would want them back and the Breen might not want to give them back. The Breen could claim that these territories were legally given to the Breen since it was done by the Dominion and Cardassia was part of the Dominion at that time...which gives me an idea...

 

[Timo]

To be sure, the Dominion forces weren't quite "surrendered to the alliance" in the usual sense of that word. All we heard were orders to cease fighting, followed by a treaty in which the Dominion formally agreed not to fight the UFP for the time being. Nothing at all about relinquishing weapons, or withdrawing, or the other usual symptoms of surrender.

So it's more like the outcome of 1812, as already suggested.

Certainly the Breen are an interesting side aspect to the war and the peace. What would life be like if the Breen decided to remain part of Dominion - the only such part in the Alpha quadrant? That would be a diplomatic and commercial opportunity for them, as well as an interesting military ace in the sleeve: "Hurt us, and suffer the consequences - seventy years from now, when our invincible allies/masters arrive!"

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The_Emperor]

The Gamma side committed basically nothing - all the Dominion ships in that battle would have been locally built by the beachhead force.

Incorrect. Some, yes. But most of the Dominion fleet was brought over from the Gamma Quadrant prior to the war.

the main Dominion forces awaiting in the Gamma Quadrant would eventually have wiped the floor with the remnants.

If there were more Dominion reinforcements in the Gamma Quadrant, then why didn't they come through? The answer is either A) They didn't want to get destroyed by the Prophets, or B) There were no reinforcements to be had.

not when the full might of the Dominion war machine was still in readiness on the other side of the wormhole.

Except you're making pretty big assumptions on the military might of the Dominion. For all we know, the ships they initially sent to the Alpha Quadrant prior to the war, and the reinforcements they attempted to send through the wormhole after the minefield was brought down constituted the majority of their forces.

When you get down to it, though, there's more to support my position than yours. The female Founder was afraid that the Federation/Klingons/Romulans would invade the Gamma Quadrant. If you're correct, then she needn't have worried. Yet she was clearly afraid of invasion by the Alpha Quadrant powers, which is why she initially wanted to inflict as much damage as possible on them rather than surrendering.

So the likely situation is this: The Dominion planned to wage all-out war against the Alpha Quadrant, and tasked nearly their entire military force to the job, leaving only enough to guard their borders at home. Part of that force made it through the wormhole before Sisko mined it, while the rest was stuck in the Gamma Quadrant.

When Dukat brought down the minefield, the rest of that force then entered the wormhole, where they were destroyed by the Prophets. That left the Dominion forces in the Alpha Quadrant without any possible reinforcements, as there was nothing left to draw upon. Which is why the female Founder wanted to fight to the death at Cardassia Prime. To inflict enough damage on the Federation Alliance so that it couldn't then invade the Gamma Quadrant, thus buying the Dominion enough time to rebuild its forces.

So yeah, the Federation/Klingons/Romulans won the war.

 

[Judas Ascendant]

Photon said:
Conditions for release:
6 months of listening to 3 hours/day of Klingon Opera.
3 months of hour long sessions w/Troi

I think they forced her into a Jello mold then stuck her between the frozen peas and carrots at the nearest supermarket.

 

[Hofner]

Section 31 got ahold of her and tortured her for Dominion secrets by putting her in a bowl and using an electric egg beater.

Robert

 

[Deckerd]

Presumably being stuck with solids for however long her prison sentence would have been punishment enough.

 

[Jono]

Imagine how complex and secure her prison would need to be to stop her from escaping, if she wanted to escape that is. Or to stop people getting to her. You would have Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and even Federation citizens who would want to have her dead.

 

[Timo]

The first idea that popped to my mind was using a stasis chamber like in "Invasive Procedures". It would be 100% escape-proof without outside help. But that wouldn't work for either of the above aspects: it wouldn't protect her from outside threats, and it wouldn't be much of a sentence. The jail time, no matter how long, would be over for her in a literal eyeblink! (Assuming Founders blink.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

Incorrect. Some, yes. But most of the Dominion fleet was brought over from the Gamma Quadrant prior to the war.

That poses some major problems. If the Dominion shipbuilding was merely keeping up with losses, or making some minor gains, then the overwhelming superiority of Dominion numbers against Klingon numbers at the end of the war (20:1) would have been there in the beginning as well. And those same Klingons thought they could take on Starfleet in equal terms a year before the war. How could the Feds even consider resisting the Dominion if its initial forces overwhelmed the combined Alpha response ten to one?

Blockading the wormhole after the first shipment would be a matter of life or death for the Federation in those circumstances. At least by the third shipment, Starfleet should have been flying suicide mission after suicide mission into the orifice in desperate attempts to close the Gates of the Heavenly Temple, to plead the Prophets for help, anything to stop the ultimate armageddon pouring out of there.

Yet the Fleet waited until the Nth shipment in an apparent bid for tactical gain... Rather unwise of them, unless the shipments were actually of manageable size.

OTOH, the Feds seem to have realized how important the shipbuilding ability would be to the beachhead force, by performing those Pearl Harbor strikes against the yards even at the risk of losing their one chance of blockading the wormhole. And they did that with an apparent arsenal of a three-digit number of ships per each of the low two-digit fleets - unless we postulate some strange reason for most of all offscreen fleets being massively larger than the onscreen ones, and for every higher-than-10th Fleet going strangely unmentioned.

That the Dominion expedition was still afloat after those years of fighting tells of massive shipbuilding abilities. I'm all for the idea that the Dominion as such was militarily weak before the Feds first poked into Gamma, lulled into safety by their longstanding local superiority. But they could, should and would have armed themselves to the teeth and beyond, on both sides of the wormhole, once engaging in the Alpha expedition.

In face of that, I'd still argue the Alphans must have spoken softly in the Female Changeling's trial.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kira Nerys]

Got imprsioned most likely.Would like to see a relaunch of the show but it never will happen.

 

[Braxton]

The_Emperor said:

The Gamma side committed basically nothing - all the Dominion ships in that battle would have been locally built by the beachhead force.

Incorrect. Some, yes. But most of the Dominion fleet was brought over from the Gamma Quadrant prior to the war.

Where was it stated in the show that most of the Dominion fleet was sent to the Alpha Quadrant to fortify Cardassian territory?

The fact that they had 3,000 ships waiting to come through by the time Sacrifice of Angels aired tells me that they have mass shipbuilding capabilities and a rather large fleet. We don't even know how large their territory really is so trying to guess how many ships they would need to defend it is difficult. Since they conquer worlds through force, I would guess that if the entire Dominion fleet were to descend on the Allies they would be crushed. You can't be expansionist and have a small fleet.

 

[Timo]

Hmm... Right after Dukat boasts about the 2,800 arriving ships, Weoyun expresses concern that controlling the Alpha Quadrant after conquest will require "an enormous number of ships". I wonder what Weoyun considers "enormous" in the context?

Tens of thousands of ships (or then fewer, but stronger, to give the rough 20:1 power ratio) were apparently available at the conclusion of the war, while the 2,800 were probably decisive only in terms of short-term tactical gain. Only Dukat and his Cardassian cohorts, plus the enemies of the Dominion, ever considered the reinforcements impressive, or thought that they would decide the outcome of the entire war. Weyoun and the Founder seemed to know better.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jono]

The arrival of 2,800 ships could have decided the war because it would have signalled that the ALpha Dominion could be quickly reinforced from the Gamma Quadrant.

I agree that Dukat was a celebrating way to early. It takes time for forces to be deployed, destroy fleets and planetary defences and secure systems. Victory wouldn't be instant but it would be almost certain as the Dominion have industry that is safe from harm. Also at this time in the war the Romulans were out, so the Dominion had a smaller opponent to conquer.

Dukat had to be crazy to think that the Cardassia's could overthrow the Dominion once that happened, the only chance they really had was to isolate the Dominion in the Alpha quadrant from its Gamma Quadrant home. By letting the Dominion source from home it weakens the Cardassian position in the Dominion.

 

[Timo]

Of course, Dukat might well be thinking of severing the wormhole connection later on. If Sisko could do it, why not him?

Given his personality, he would no doubt consider himself the father of the idea and Sisko a copycat.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Braxton]

rofeta said:
The arrival of 2,800 ships could have decided the war because it would have signalled that the ALpha Dominion could be quickly reinforced from the Gamma Quadrant.

I agree that Dukat was a celebrating way to early. It takes time for forces to be deployed, destroy fleets and planetary defences and secure systems. Victory wouldn't be instant but it would be almost certain as the Dominion have industry that is safe from harm. Also at this time in the war the Romulans were out, so the Dominion had a smaller opponent to conquer.

Dukat had to be crazy to think that the Cardassia's could overthrow the Dominion once that happened, the only chance they really had was to isolate the Dominion in the Alpha quadrant from its Gamma Quadrant home. By letting the Dominion source from home it weakens the Cardassian position in the Dominion.

Showing they can get reinforced quickly is a moot point because they would have received those ships anyway had the Wormhole not been mined. Once those ships did come through, the Federation and the Klingons would lose within a few months. Even if the Romulans entered the war once those ships arrived the Allies would have still lost. The only way they would have been able to defeat the Dominion once those ships arrived would to be get the Gorn, the Tholians, the Ferengi, the Miradorn, and whoever else to join the war. The likely hood of that happening would be slim though. The Dominion would be victorious, the Cardassians would have been exterminated once the war was over, the Dominion wouldn't stay allied with a power responsible for trying to wipe our the Founders, same for the Romulans. Everyone else would enslaved.

 

[Saxman1]

Chewing on a box of nails....

 

[CaptainHawk1]

Navaros said:

Clym said:


The Fereration's done some shady stuff, but nothing like the genocide of 800 million Cardassians that the Founder ordered. Plus, the Dominion did start the war in the first place...

The Federation also ordered and had every intention to carry out a genocide on the Founders (when one puts aside semantics). That's every bit as bad as the genocide ordered by the female Founder.

That's debatable, because blame for that can be put squarely on the shoulders of Section 31. Regardless of that though, the Founders-- every last damned one of them in the Great Link-- were legitimate military targets just as Hitler and his inner circle would have been. You may want to call it genocide but it was just smart strategically to try kill those giving those orders to kill you and your citizens. The founders went after innocent civilians and they've had a history of doing that and intended on doing that to Earth (see: Weyoun in Sacrfice of Angels ) Aside from that, though, brush up on your history. The losers don't get to dictate terms at the end of a war.

It's also debatable whether the Dominion started the war in the first place. Sisko started making demands on the Dominion and that is what started the war. Granted the Dominion probably would have attacked eventually anyhow, but even so the point remains it didn't start until Sisko took actions trying to dictate what the Dominion is allowed to do.

It's not debatable at all. The first shot was fired by the Dominion when they kidnapped Martok and replaced him with a changeling for the sole purpose of igniting a war between the Klingons and the Cardasians which in turn (despite what Sisko said about the Maquis) drove the Cardassians right into the arms of the Dominion, right where they wanted them. Then, they sent a changeling to replace Bashir who infiltrated the station and attempted to destroy Bajor's sun, thus killing everyone on the station and Bajor. Then, in a response to a military build up by the Dominion, Sisko mined the entrance to the wormhole, which I might add was in Bajoran Space to which the response from the Dominion was full scale invasion and takeover of the Station. So, really, who started this war?

-Shawn

 

[CaptainHawk1]

Timo said:
The winner has dictated the terms in all prior and subsequent conflicts in Earth's history, too. Which in the DS9 case is a bit funny, because the Alpha powers in practice lost the war, except that the Founders nicely decided to stop fighting anyway.

Nonsense, the Dominion lost the War the moment the Cardassians turned on them. They had no Ketracel White facilities, no cloning facilities and no ship building facilities left by the end of the war i nthe Alpha Quadrant, the Founders were on Death's door and when the Cardies turned on them, it was officially all over. Their response was simply to go out in a blaze of glory and kill as many people as possible. The only thing that stopped the genocide was Odo, but the war was already over.

Since the end to the war came with Odo's dual surrender of returning to the Link and curing the disease, the Dominion showed pretty extreme restraint when not immediately continuing the war once those dual acts were completed. OTOH, that they could afford such restraint just tells us how unimportant the outcome of the war was to them.

Like I said before, that's not what ended the war, that's what ended the final act of desperation. Also, Odo did not surrender, he felt that it was time for him to join the Link and that it needed him to get past the Founders innate fears and hatred of the "solids." As for the cure, again, this was not a condition to the end of the War. The Founders don't work like that. The female changeling ordered the Jem Hadar to stop because the enlightenment she experienced in her link with Odo. Why this didn't affect her before when she linked with him, I don't know.

...Plus, the Dominion did start the war in the first place.

Technically, Sisko was the first to commit a mutually agreed-upon act of war when he mined the wormhole.

I don't understand what a mutually agreed upon act act of war is in regards to this subject. Mutually would imply 2 or more sides agreeing that it was an act of war. Who are the 2 sides that agreed on that? From Sisko's perspective, this was an act of self-defense.

Prior to that, both sides fought in cold war terms, sabotaging and killing by proxy or in secret or in shady circumstances.

I think kidnapping a military leader of a sovereign state and then replacing him with an imposter who starts a war that kills millions and then later attempting to destroy an entire solar system with an inhabited planet in it is a little more than killing by proxy or simply shady.

-Shawn

 

[CaptainHawk1]

Not really. The Republic of Bajor owns and has the legal right to control the Alpha Quadrant terminus of the Bajoran Wormhole, not the Dominion. Ergo, when the Federation (in the form of Captain Sisko) had the AQ terminus mined, he legally committed an act of war against the Republic of Bajor, not the Dominion. The Dominion had a treaty of neutrality with Bajor, so they had no legal right to intervene in what should have been a Federation-Bajoran conflict. (Further, the Bajoran government didn't really object to the Federation's mining of the Wormhole, they only pretended to -- so, really, the act of war against Bajor was de jure, not de facto.)

Having a hard time swallowing that. What's neglected here is the fact that Starfleet and the Federation were the administrators of the station (and the fact that Bajor was a protectorate of the Federation) and hence were hired to represent the interests of the Bajorans. The government of Bajor never objected nor even feigned objection to the mining of the Wormhole entrance and the Non-agression pact between the Bajorans and the Dominion was signed near the end of the completeion of said mining. In fact, I believethat it would be safe to say that Sisko (Prime Directive and all. administrative role on the station, etc.) could not have mined that wormhole entrance without the approval/consent of the Bajoran government. The only thing that the Bajorans protested (as Kira as the representative and only "officially") was the Federation's refusal to turn the station over to the bajoran governemnt (i.e. her, as the representative of that government).

Starfleet entered Dominion space once without their permission, and did so with the intent of attempting to peacefully contact the Dominion government to negotiate peace.

Very good point. What's missed by most is that the Dominion doesn't own the Gamma Quadrant. They have their designated borders and the Federation and others from the AQ only violated it once, to seek peaceful first contact. What got the Founders nervous was the AQ's solids proximity to their space because they're a bunch of xenophobic nuts.

The Federation first knowlingly trespassed in "Jem'Hadar", when the Odyssey was sent through the wormhole against the explicit notice of the Dominion that the Gamma side was their sovereign territory.

Not exactly. The Dominion never made any territorial claims over the Gamma Quadrant terminus of the Bajoran Wormhole. They simply declared that they would not allow Alpha Quadranters to be in the Gamma Quadrant anymore, and would use force in response to such a presence. They never made any territorial claims. It would be the equivalent of the United States declaring that it would no longer allow European citizens to be present in the Americas; it's not a claim of ownership of all of North and South America, but, rather, an act of rank bullying.

Brilliant. Better than I could have explained it. I still don't buy the whole "act of war against the Bajorans by mining the wormhole" theory but you are right on Sci with your analysis of the Dominion's territorial claims. Everyone assumes that the Dominion runs the whole Quadrant, they didn't and that was never expressed nor implied.

-Shawn

 

[CaptainHawk1]

The_Emperor said:

The Gamma side committed basically nothing - all the Dominion ships in that battle would have been locally built by the beachhead force.

Incorrect. Some, yes. But most of the Dominion fleet was brought over from the Gamma Quadrant prior to the war.

the main Dominion forces awaiting in the Gamma Quadrant would eventually have wiped the floor with the remnants.

If there were more Dominion reinforcements in the Gamma Quadrant, then why didn't they come through? The answer is either A) They didn't want to get destroyed by the Prophets, or B) There were no reinforcements to be had.

not when the full might of the Dominion war machine was still in readiness on the other side of the wormhole.

Except you're making pretty big assumptions on the military might of the Dominion. For all we know, the ships they initially sent to the Alpha Quadrant prior to the war, and the reinforcements they attempted to send through the wormhole after the minefield was brought down constituted the majority of their forces.

When you get down to it, though, there's more to support my position than yours. The female Founder was afraid that the Federation/Klingons/Romulans would invade the Gamma Quadrant. If you're correct, then she needn't have worried. Yet she was clearly afraid of invasion by the Alpha Quadrant powers, which is why she initially wanted to inflict as much damage as possible on them rather than surrendering.

So the likely situation is this: The Dominion planned to wage all-out war against the Alpha Quadrant, and tasked nearly their entire military force to the job, leaving only enough to guard their borders at home. Part of that force made it through the wormhole before Sisko mined it, while the rest was stuck in the Gamma Quadrant.

When Dukat brought down the minefield, the rest of that force then entered the wormhole, where they were destroyed by the Prophets. That left the Dominion forces in the Alpha Quadrant without any possible reinforcements, as there was nothing left to draw upon. Which is why the female Founder wanted to fight to the death at Cardassia Prime. To inflict enough damage on the Federation Alliance so that it couldn't then invade the Gamma Quadrant, thus buying the Dominion enough time to rebuild its forces.

So yeah, the Federation/Klingons/Romulans won the war.

I don't that there's a thing I disagree with in this post. You saved me a buttload of typing. Nice job, rookie. :thumbsup:

-Shawn