Were Tuvok and Neelix aware Janeway killed Tuvix?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by damfino, May 29, 2019.

  1. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Commodore

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    Actually, it's closer to the Navy, even the ranks. The military has generals not admirals.
     
  2. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    [​IMG]
    Even the Navy is part of the military
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
  3. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Commodore

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    Then why do they have a different ranking system?
     
  4. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Army, Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps are all part of the modern military, all have the same pay grade system, but all use different names for ranks. Before ww2, the Marine Corps was part of the Navy, and Air Force was part of the Army. It's still that way in some countries.

    ...but I was just trying to make a joke before
     
  5. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

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    She also though the computer program that was the doctor was a life, and she fell in love with a holodeck character.

    Even if you did consider it a life, Tuvix and Neelix was not it's mother and father, and it was not a unique life form. It was Tuvix and Neelix combined. The moment they had a way to separate them, the question became WHO has the right to exist? An aberration, or the entities that were combined in the accident?

    Do the two Kirks have a "right" to stay separated? Do the two B'Elanas have the "right" to stay separated? Does the single Tuvix have the"right" to stay combined? Does the Borg drone that was formerly Annika have a "right" to stay a drone? Do the two creatures that evolved from Janeway and Paris have the "right" to exist? Do all the life forms that came into existence as the result of entire species being erased from history have a "right" to exist, that Janeway took away, when she repaired the damage caused by the temporal weapon, by turning it on itself?

    Perhaps when an accident can separate a human being into separate "good" and an "evil" human beings,
    Perhaps when an unwanted procedure can separate a human into it's separate "races",
    Perhaps when an accident can combine to human beings into a combined consciousness,
    Perhaps when a hostile species can steal and transform a human being,
    Perhaps when an accident can hyper-evolve two human beings,
    and Perhaps when a temporal weapon can erase entire races, society, or things from history,

    Correcting an accident will be seen as correcting an accident.

    Now, let's talk about how the 30th century time ship guys are murderers, because when they correct a time anomaly, lives are inevitably lost as a result.

    And let's not get into Data and the Doctor. They are simulations. I'm a software engineer. Even today I can download Microsoft's FREE AI framework and write software that "learns", "thinks" it is "alive", and wants to stay that way.


    And BTW, if the the doctor and data are "alive", the doctor murdered that Cardassian doctor, who clearly wanted to "live".
     
  6. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

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    In the USA, the USMC is still part of the Navy.
     
  7. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Commodore

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    All of these are debatable questions and certainly not to be given a pat answer like you think they are.
     
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  8. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes, you are so totally right. I am so completely wrong.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
  9. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

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    That's the problem with this forum. People will never admit that they were wrong or change their minds regardless.

    "The Marine Corps has been a component of the U.S. Department of the Navy since 30 June 1834,"

    But you "suppose" so, eh?
     
  10. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

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    Yeah, go ahead and debate them.
     
  11. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Commodore

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    I am glad I got your permission.
     
  12. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Is my post not a ceding to your correction? Your reaction is unwarranted. If I had wanted to dispute it, I would have slithered out a response like "well, technically that's still true, but not the way it used to be," or something along those lines. When I posted, I was thinking of the change from the Army and Navy being two separate entities, to being all combined under the "dept of defense," and there being 4(+1) official branches of the military.

    I will correct my mistake, as well as error in judgement.
     
  13. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

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    Listen, I honestly don't think that you can debate these things, because they are entirely new situations, and you are unaware that you are judging them by the standards of today.

    In every one of the examples I provided, in my post, the participant or participants were mutilated in some way that was entirely beyond their control, and without their consent.

    Today, there is no way to accidentally separate a multi-racial human into two separate humans of each race. There is no way to accidentally combine two humans into some bizarre third human. And because these situations are currently impossible, it is difficult to "debate" them in context. I don't think that you fully understand the importance of "in context".

    For example, you have consistently used metaphors to illustrate that the aberration was (or at least could be thought of) Tuvok and Neelix' child. This is because you see the accident and the aberration through the eyes of today. It isn't possible for you to see Tuvix as a combination of two consciousnesses. Such a notion sounds OK on the TV screen, but it is hard for most to truly understand.

    You asked "Is Data a toaster". I don't even think you understand what this really asks. It asks is Data "conscious". If so, then Data is alive. Well, the machine is only wires and gears. Wires and gears aren't alive. So it would have to be the consciousness, not the physical body that defines "life". I don't think that you can differentiate between consciousness and the physical body as a definition of "life" when you ask if something is "alive".

    If Data isn't a toaster, then he is alive. If he is "alive" it's because because he is considered conscious.

    Which brings us to the argument. It has ALWAYS been: Does that combined aberrant consciousness that was created by accident have the "right" to stay combined, especially after the accident that created it could be reversed?

    And here's really where I think you can't think out of your box: In a time when technology can cause mutilations like this, in a time where technology can separate personality traits and race from an non-consenting person into two persons, the answer MUST fall on the side of undoing the mutilation.

    I don't think this can be debated in context.

    By the way, you cannot create analogies for this situation, because there is nothing analogous. But here's one that might be close: A 30 year old woman is walking down the street and a brick falls on her head. The injury causes inoperable damage to her brain (the "accident"). Her personality changes completely, she is not the same person. She has lost some traits, found others. She doesn't remember her husband, family, friends. (The new "consciousness" is born). A year goes by, and due to medical advances, the brain injury is now operable with very little risk. But, if she has the operation, her personality nd memory will revert to the way it was (effectively, the "killing" the new consciousness).

    Do you correct the brain injury? Yes? What about the "self" that was created by the accident? No? What about the "self" that was mutilated by the accident? What if the "self" created by the accident insisted that it had the "right" to exist? What if this were you?

    Now, you might see this as different but it's not. You might argue that it's different because there isn't another "person" involved. But then, if this is so, then life isn't determined by consciousness and self after all, and Data is a toaster.

    Now, I don't for a minute consider that you truly understand any of this.




    I've read each one of your posts And again,I'm sorry, but I really don't feel that you have a point.
     
  14. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Commodore

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    If you ever get off your high horse, you'll realize that it is actually a poney.
     
  15. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

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    It's OK. I just think on these forums that no one ever says "Yes, I didn't think of it like that" or "You're right" when they're debating.

    Well, if you ever stop your frantic paroxysm, you might make a relevant point, and we can have a conversation. Until then I'll buy Tuvix some baby clothes and tell him about his mama Nelix and his papa Tuvok.
     
  16. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You realize that the accusations you're levying on other posters could be leveled at you as well?
     
  17. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

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    Well thank you for letting me know.

    Does this mean we're past thinking Tuvix was Tuvok and Neelix's child? I'm hoping that we're making some progress in our abstract thinking skills.
     
  18. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You might find people more receptive to your views if you adopted a less patronizing tone.
     
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  19. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    a point, he has.
     
  20. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

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    Point taken.