Were Tuvok and Neelix aware Janeway killed Tuvix?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by damfino, May 29, 2019.

  1. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    If Tuvix wasn't composed of two people, Tuvix would have every right to exist.

    Now then, why don't you feel that Neelix and Tuvok had the right to exist?
     
  2. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    I don't feel they had the right to exist at the expense of killing a unique lifeform, and by the Starfleet charter, I feel that if they believed in the ideals of Starfleet then they would agree.

    I don't believe in the notion that one should kill a person to resurrect their parents.

    I don't believe Tuvix should have to live his life knowing that at any moment he might be terminated to bring back Neelix and Tuvok. It would have been more humane to keep him in stasis until his fate was guaranteed one way or another rather than being so cruel as to enable him to believe he might be allowed to live only to take that forcibly away from him.
     
  3. Vger23

    Vger23 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2014
    Location:
    New England
    Life is life.
     
  4. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Location:
    Middle West
    It goes both ways. If Tuvok and Neelix don't have the right to exist at the expense of killing Tuvix, then Tuvix wouldn't have the right to exist at the expense of killing Tuvok and Neelix. Calling Tuvix a "unique lifeform" doesn't mean Tuvok and Neelix are not also unique lifeforms, unless you mean he(Tuvix) has extra value over their right to exist as some bizzare accident and scientific curiosity, or because he is "more rare than them" as a species. This would seem a very unethical way to reason this.

    Tuvix is Tuvok and Neelix. They are still alive, merged together, existing as one being. I'm perfectly content to admit that there is no right answer. There really isn't.
     
  5. damfino

    damfino Ensign Red Shirt

    Joined:
    May 25, 2019
    There isn't. But I think it's pretty well established, by watching 176 episodes of TNG, what would have been the 'starfleet' solution. It's a little weird not a single crewmember stood up for Neelix's rights, save for the doctor.
     
    DonIago likes this.
  6. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    If I didn't love The Doctor before this episode, I definitely would have loved him afterward.

    Did we ever see a doctor outright refuse to follow a captain's orders previously? I know Bashir noted at least once that he would file a formal protest (not exactly a useful option in Voyager's case).
     
  7. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Location:
    Discofan
    Bashir has never been asked to execute someone, especially an innocent!!! Janeway is a fascist.
     
  8. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    Someone needs to look up the term "fascist,"
     
    ozzfloyd likes this.
  9. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Location:
    Discofan
    People who execute innocents really fit the definition.

    Maybe that someone is yourself.
     
  10. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    That wasn't really what I was asking.
     
  11. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Location:
    Discofan
    What you were asking needed to be put in context.
     
  12. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    I don't know what your issue seems to be with me lately, but I thought "Did we ever see a doctor outright refuse to follow a captain's orders previously?" was a pretty clear question and additional context wasn't needed.
     
  13. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Location:
    Discofan
    I have no issue with you but with what you're saying. And my clear answer is that no other doctor has been asked to put to death an innocent person. You can only compare things that are comparable.
     
  14. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Location:
    Middle West
    [​IMG]
     
  15. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2015
    You meant Tuvix. But I contend he had no rights.
     
  16. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2015
    You are taking this very personally. Please realize this is a work of fiction. And also realize that there was no execution in this work of fiction, there was a separation of two people who were combined into one. The thing that was the combined personalities of two other people didn't die, it was separated.
     
  17. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2015
    You seem to be forgetting that this is a work of fiction. You seem to be taking it too seriously.

    An unforeseen transporter accident combined two people. A fix was found, and applied, to rectify the situation. The aberration (look this up, "anomaly, unwelcome") that was created because of the accident wasn't killed, it was separated.

    You're continually hung up on an idea that something was killed. It wasn't. It was separated back into it's original parts. There was no individual named Tuvix to kill. There were two combined individuals named Tuvok and Neelix to separate.
     
  18. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2015
    I can see why you could say this. I like the concept of Neelix, but I think the character wasn't very developed. I think part of that was Ethan Phillips' portrayal. I think the doctor on Enterprise was a similar character, but done so much better.

    But that Tuvik actor was just painful to watch and hear.
     
  19. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2017
    If Tuvix wasn't a person why would he be begging not be killed? You would think he would to returned to his natural state of being Neelix and Tuvok. Him not wanting to die proof of his life. Fear of death is one of the things that proves the whole concept of life being a real thing. Jason
     
  20. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2015
    He wasn't killed. He was separated. How many different ways, or times, does it need to be said? It doesn't matter if the aberration didn't want to be separated. Everyone is basing their opinions on the doctor's reaction, which was BS. No one's life was being taken. An accident that combined two individuals was corrected. Nothing was destroyed.

    Aberrations are corrected all the time.
    Combining the two Kirks did not "kill" each of the separated the Kirks. I don't care if they were dying. One could argue they had the "right" to die as individuals.
    Restoring the evolved Paris and Janeway from "Threshold". Didn't those creeatures have some "right" to exist?
    Combining the separated Klingon halves of B'Elanna. Maybe the Klingon half wanted to die without her human side's weakness? Did she have some "right" to?

    In the case of "Tuvix" They didn't want to write another separation story, they flipped it around and wrote a combination story. An accident would combine two characters instead of separating one, and the fix would separate them instead of combining them. But it's really the same thing. In all cases, the results of an accident just needed to be reversed. No life was created or lost in any of these cases.