Were Tuvok and Neelix aware Janeway killed Tuvix?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by damfino, May 29, 2019.

  1. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Except that when you make abstraction of the arrogance and the condescension you realize that there's not much left.
     
  2. marlboro

    marlboro Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Just once I'd like to click on a thread here and have it be about the topic in the title.
     
  3. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'd say this thread for most of its duration does a better job than most. (shrug) Threads wander off-topic, for better or worse.
     
  4. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You can only focus on Tuvix in a Tuvix thread for so long...
     
  5. Akiraprise

    Akiraprise Vice Admiral Moderator

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    I hope so. I've been reviewing forum threads and on several of your posts I could probably issue infractions for trolling as the board rules define it. I'm opting not to presently in light of the infraction you've already received today in another forum.

    Everyone else remember to keep the personal digs out. Debate the post not the poster as we say. If anyone thinks a post needs closer scrutiny hit the report post button and we'll take a closer look.Thanks.

    Back to your regularly scheduled Tuvix post...
     
  6. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Did you notice how Janeway regarded Tuvix the whole time? Even though he was accepted by the rest of the crew as one of them (I think he lived for three of four weeks) and even appreciated. Janeway always looked at him like she would at a piece of garbage. When she was told that the thing could be reversed she never stopped for one second to think that it could hurt him. I think it's a terrible trait they (the writers) gave her. Plus I never heard that there was a time limit on the procedure and since Tuvix did an excellent job I don't see the rush to kill him. She could have asked her crew to see if there was a way to save all of them (By maybe making a transporter duplicate at the same time, mixing the Riker thing with it)
    It would have been nice to be told that it was impossible instead of this rushed execution.
     
  7. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Something I haven't considered before: Janeway's background as a science officer seems somewhat inconsistent with her conduct in this episode. By which I mean, of anyone on the ship, I would think the scientist types would be the most likely to embrace Tuvix as a unique development worthy of exploration and the right to self-determination.

    Put another way, how do we think Spock, Data (since TNG didn't exactly have a science officer), Jadzia, or the other science officers we've seen may have reacted to Tuvix?
     
  8. marlboro

    marlboro Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Very interesting question.

    I think Spock would use cold logic and kill Tuvix. Bones would raise all kinds of Hell.

    I think Data would consider Tuvix a unique life form much like himself and would spare him.

    Jadzia I'm not so sure about. I don't think she'd kill him, but I can't say why. Ultimately, I think she wouldn't do it because she just isn't that type of person. Well except for the Joran part of her. I also think she would find Tuvix's unique origin too fascinating and his personality too likable to kill.
     
  9. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Rear Admiral

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    As a crossbreed himself Spock would most logically see a kinship between Tuvix and himself.
     
  10. marlboro

    marlboro Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Probably. But "needs of the many" and all that.

    He was also pretty eager to drop the hammer on Gary Mitchell to save the ship, too.
     
  11. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, Tuvix wasn't trying to blow the ship up, like Gary Mitchell would have eventually done if he had gotten his way.
     
  12. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    And that would be "projecting." While she seems a little disturbed the very first time she meets him, she is certainly not that way throughout the episode. She also straight up tells us her feelings in a Captain's log:

    When they discover the solution, and Tuvix refuses it becomes a weight on everyone, including Janeway. And she doesn't know what to do. It's Kes, who represents the effect not separating him would have on the crew, that pushes Janeway into one direction over another. Tuvix knows that Kes can influence the captain and tries to use her, but his plan backfires, because it's actually Kes who has been bothered by/angry with him all along.

    At the end, Janeway is on the verge of crying.

    It's amazing some of the things that people project onto Janeway that just aren't there.
     
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  13. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

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    Yes, I tend to get a little frustrated. I'm sorry.

    "Tuvix" was the result of an accident. The accident occurred, apparently, at a time when such accidents can occur. One can not look at this as an early 21st century problem, with early 21st century eyes. An accident combined two entities with a third. There HAS to be, in this time, an implied duty to the victims of the accident. An action separated them. "I am Tuvok... but I'm also Neelix". There never was anthing named Tuvix, nothing to "kill" only two entities waiting to be separated.

    I'm still waiting for ONE person to have an intelligent debate with me, looking at the situation "out of the box".
     
  14. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

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    If she left Tuvix as is, they'd be complaining about her lack of duty to Neelix and Tuvok.

    People, especially Americans, hate strong, decisive women. No one complains about the combining of two Kirks into one, no one complains about combining two B'Elanas into one. Even though those actions destroyed entities who had the "right" to live OR die as individuals. No one complains about Picard's rescue from the borg, everyone complains about Janeway's decision to rescue Seven.

    It is, was, and always will be about a double standard. Tuvix was "murdered" but the two Kirks and the two B'Elanas weren't. Picard was "rescued" but Seven was taken from the Borg against her will.

    I call BS, big time.
     
  15. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

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    Heh, you still see Tuvix as Neelix and Tuvok's child huh?
     
  16. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I believe the clinical term is "binary clone" and that is a real thing. Look it up.
     
  17. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Rear Admiral

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    In fact, if Tuvok had a child with Neelix' sister or Neelix' with Tuvok's sister then once grown up the child would likely look very much like Tuvix. Which means that Tuvix is no more an aberration than Spock for example.
     
  18. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think you just answered your own question as to why nobody is interested in engaging with you. Would you want to engage with someone who addressed you in this manner?
     
  19. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

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    Yes, as a matter f fact I would.
     
  20. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

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    What?