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Were Tuvok and Neelix aware Janeway killed Tuvix?

Kathryn was going to let Tuvix live, until a tearful Kes begged to have her boyfriend back, a man she had never made love to, that she dumps a couple episodes later.

Kes overestimated how much she loved Neelix and how much she wanted him to exist, and Tuvix paid the price with his life because a 2 year old didn't know what love is.

Neelix never had sex with Kes? Really? I mean even the Doctor got some action and he had to add a "penis" subroutine to his own program!!!
 
Neelix never had sex with Kes? Really? I mean even the Doctor got some action and he had to add a "penis" subroutine to his own program!!!

Well in Elogium, in season two, 2 episodes before her 2nd birthday in Twisted where Neelix was Jealously ranting about how he thought that Kes was sleeping with other people, Kes says that she is far too young to have a baby.

That might not mean that she is too young to sex for fun, or it might mean that she hasn't had some alien puberty where she is capable of having babies, or it might mean that if she bones too young, she will get preggers, and the baby kill her coming out, which is almost what happened.

The other thing about Twisted, is that that's the episode where we find out that Kes and Neelix have separate bedrooms. If they are not living together, they are not sleeping together.

One episode later Tom fights Neelix to the Death, nearly, for Kes.

Would Tom have done that, killed a dude, for a PG relationship of hugs and handholding?

That episode makes no sense.

"FRIENDS! LISTEN TO ME CLEARLY! MY PLATONIC FRIENDSHIP WITH NEEELIX IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANY OF MY FUTURE ORGASMS! HAZAH!"

Which is right up there with "B'Elanna! I know that you are being murdered by a vulcan sex virus and the only thing that will save you from certain death is my penis, I know my penis is the cure, but I don't want to sleep with you right now, becuase I don't think it will be a healthy start to what I suspect is going to be an awesome relationship if you don't die from this Vulcan sex virus, that my penis is totally the cure to. I'm keeping my trousers zipped up, for us... We still cool?"

Is Tom Paris gay?
 
I think the problem is her deciding to execute Tuvix without consulting anybody else (except Kes who's a moron) and without even asking if there wasn't a way to save them all. Also not one guy on the bridge to say anything. They really looked like a bunch of assholes. At least some could have questioned Janeway's moral authority here. The death penalty is illegal in the federation so what Janeway has done is at the very least uncharted territory. The forced killing of an innocent person!!. The thing that really takes the cake though is when Naomi tells the story several years later as a pleasant anecdote. What kind of assholes would do that! I mean they don't even have the decency to admit that it was wrong after the facts.

I'd say Kes had a conflict of interest rather than calling her a moron, but YMMV...

The opposition will, predictably, argue that Tuvix was never a person to begin with and consequently could not be "killed".
 
Well in Elogium, in season two, 2 episodes before her 2nd birthday in Twisted where Neelix was Jealously ranting about how he thought that Kes was sleeping with other people, Kes says that she is far too young to have a baby.

That might not mean that she is too young to sex for fun, or it might mean that she hasn't had some alien puberty where she is capable of having babies, or it might mean that if she bones too young, she will get preggers, and the baby kill her coming out, which is almost what happened.

The other thing about Twisted, is that that's the episode where we find out that Kes and Neelix have separate bedrooms. If they are not living together, they are not sleeping together.

One episode later Tom fights Neelix to the Death, nearly, for Kes.

Would Tom have done that, killed a dude, for a PG relationship of hugs and handholding?

That episode makes no sense.

"FRIENDS! LISTEN TO ME CLEARLY! MY PLATONIC FRIENDSHIP WITH NEEELIX IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANY OF MY FUTURE ORGASMS! HAZAH!"

Which is right up there with "B'Elanna! I know that you are being murdered by a vulcan sex virus and the only thing that will save you from certain death is my penis, I know my penis is the cure, but I don't want to sleep with you right now, becuase I don't think it will be a healthy start to what I suspect is going to be an awesome relationship if you don't die from this Vulcan sex virus, that my penis is totally the cure to. I'm keeping my trousers zipped up, for us... We still cool?"

Is Tom Paris gay?

No, I think it's quite the opposite. Tom is so secure in his masculinity that he feels bad about taking advantage of B'Elanna's altered condition to have sex with her. He thinks that later she may resent him for having used her like that. He could be right about it.

Harry, on the other hand, shows all the signs of someone who's gay but doesn't want to admit it to himself but that's another story.
 
I admit I got somewhat of a ping on my gaydar from Harry.

Then again, I got one from Tom too.

Oh, what could have been in "The Chute"...
 
One would think that the current political climate in America, not to mention the historical record, would provide ample evidence of the dangers of dehumanizing a fellow individual.

If we were talking about an individual, instead of the accidental combination of two consciousnesses, you might have a point. "I am Neelix. But I am also Tukok". Please find me the individual.
 
It comes as a surprise to everyone. She's not a monster in her log. She doesn't know how to feel about it, like any same person. Why does Archer get a pass for doing the same thing? Why is Similitude hailed as a great episode, yet this one so controversial? Archer is not at all indecisive like Janeway. He has a one track mind on his decision, and gets angry when "Sim" wants to live. Archer fully intends to kill Sim, and in this case, Sim is actually a separate entity.

Is there some emotional need to hate Janeway as a character? Someone please explain. I have the feeling that if Tuvix eventually did acquiesce, Janeway would still be called evil, and a monster, and whatever else.

It's the same case with episodes like Equinox. Janeway is called evil, and insane, and a murderer, but Sisko can do worse and it makes him a "badass." Even Archer can torture someone, threaten to kill them, and nobody complains.

People do not like strong women. They like women who are weak and indecisive, who run around screaming #metoo, and who are offended by anything and everything they come across.

And one of these people had the nerve to say something about dehumanizing someone "in this political climate".

The crime is, I'm sure the irony is lost on the lot of them.
 
On what are you basing your assumptions that Tuvix is not an individual? Do you believe Data was an individual? Do you believe The Doctor was an individual? And if either of them were, then how is Tuvix different?

Before you say "he was an accident", you might consider that many individuals were not intentionally conceived.

And why are you so willing to declare Tuvix was not an individual when the cost of you being wrong would be that an individual was killed? Why are you not even willing to consider the possibility that you're wrong?

Because if the people who have an issue with Janeway's actions are wrong, then the worst thing that happened is that we got upset over nothing meaningful. But if you're wrong then you're sweeping the death of an individual under the carpet.
 
The Doctor, fresh out of the box, is not an individual, it is a slave, who it's programmers want to stay an obedient happy slave until the end of time.

Maybe at some point, the Doctor crossed a line and became sapient, but Kes and others were arguing that he was sapient from the 2nd episode. When did he become "real" and how many declarations about his realness existed before he became "real", if he ever did. So? It's transference that he is "real" even after he is "real"and it never matters if he is "real" or not, because the Voyager crew want him to be "real" even when he is not, and their tools for divining his "realness" are inadequate.
 
"their tools for divining his "realness" are inadequate"

Perhaps their tools for divining Tuvix's 'realness' were similarly inadequate...or disregarded.
 
Janeway did not kill Tuvix because she thought that he was not a person.

She thought that he was a person, and was going to let him live, before Kes had a hissy fit.

Kathryn's final argument was Tuvok's Wife, Kes, as well as the rest of Tuvok and Neelix's family, would want Neelix and Tuvok back, more so than learning to deal with this new dude who thinks that Kes and T'Pel are legally required to sleep with him.

Something I forgot about.

Yes, it's as weird that Tom wouldn't sleep with B'Elanna in Blood fever, as that B'Elanna chose to die rather than sleep with Vorrik. Yes he was a rapist, a jerk and a nerd, but his penis was also the cure to her terminal illness.

After she was healthy, then B'Elanna could have castrated and blinded Vorrik.
 
Yes, it's as weird that Tom wouldn't sleep with B'Elanna in Blood fever, as that B'Elanna chose to die rather than sleep with Vorrik. Yes he was a rapist, a jerk and a nerd, but his penis was also the cure to her terminal illness.
When Tom learned that she could die, he did decide to sleep with her. They went behind some bushes and were about to get it on before he got blocked
 
Janeway did not kill Tuvix because she thought that he was not a person.

She thought that he was a person, and was going to let him live, before Kes had a hissy fit.

Kathryn's final argument was Tuvok's Wife, Kes, as well as the rest of Tuvok and Neelix's family, would want Neelix and Tuvok back, more so than learning to deal with this new dude who thinks that Kes and T'Pel are legally required to sleep with him.

Something I forgot about.

Yes, it's as weird that Tom wouldn't sleep with B'Elanna in Blood fever, as that B'Elanna chose to die rather than sleep with Vorrik. Yes he was a rapist, a jerk and a nerd, but his penis was also the cure to her terminal illness.

After she was healthy, then B'Elanna could have castrated and blinded Vorrik.

Well, it wasn't the ONLY cure. Apparently taking a good beating or giving one is a valid cure too. B'Elanna just liked the idea of beating the shit out Vorik much more than the one of sleeping with him. Who could blame her for that?:lol:
 
Well, it wasn't the ONLY cure. Apparently taking a good beating or giving one is a valid cure too. B'Elanna just liked the idea of beating the shit out Vorik much more than the one of sleeping with him. Who could blame her for that?:lol:

I'm not sure how public that fact was.

I just read the transcipt, and Tuok said that the Ladymate has defended herself from a third party suitor before. So B'Elanna's choice to kill Vorik is not unique in Vulcan history. Although from TOS I recalled that the fight, which is usually between two telepaths, had to be the death, which is why the sex is easier to stomach, than a broken spine.
 
I'm not sure how public that fact was.

I just read the transcipt, and Tuok said that the Ladymate has defended herself from a third party suitor before. So B'Elanna's choice to kill Vorik is not unique in Vulcan history. Although from TOS I recalled that the fight, which is usually between two telepaths, had to be the death, which is why the sex is easier to stomach, than a broken spine.

Well, the Vulcan mating ritual as most things Star Trek is essentially an evolving concept. Today it's this and tomorrow it will be something (slightly) different. That's how you get from an ameba to mankind (given enough time).
 
McCoy, the greatest Doctor in the Federation knew NOTHING about Vulcan mating rituals and biology, eye lids, brain removal, and hematology despite being Spock's primary physician.

Either McCoy's racism is so primal that he doesn't study books on non-humans, or there were no books on Vulcan sex before McCoy was posted to the Enterprise.

Tuvix, Tuvok, Neelix and their underwear.

Was Tuvix wearing their undies?

Did Neelix or Tuvok inherit Tuvix's tighty whities?
 
McCoy, the greatest Doctor in the Federation knew NOTHING about Vulcan mating rituals and biology, eye lids, brain removal, and hematology despite being Spock's primary physician.

Either McCoy's racism is so primal that he doesn't study books on non-humans, or there were no books on Vulcan sex before McCoy was posted to the Enterprise.

Tuvix, Tuvok, Neelix and their underwear.

Was Tuvix wearing their undies?

Did Neelix or Tuvok inherit Tuvix's tighty whities?

While we're at it. Had they put back on Tuvix his initial accouterments, would Neelix and Tuvok have gotten their clothes back too?
 
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