Were Tuvok and Neelix aware Janeway killed Tuvix?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by damfino, May 29, 2019.

  1. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Neelix never had sex with Kes? Really? I mean even the Doctor got some action and he had to add a "penis" subroutine to his own program!!!
     
  2. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Well in Elogium, in season two, 2 episodes before her 2nd birthday in Twisted where Neelix was Jealously ranting about how he thought that Kes was sleeping with other people, Kes says that she is far too young to have a baby.

    That might not mean that she is too young to sex for fun, or it might mean that she hasn't had some alien puberty where she is capable of having babies, or it might mean that if she bones too young, she will get preggers, and the baby kill her coming out, which is almost what happened.

    The other thing about Twisted, is that that's the episode where we find out that Kes and Neelix have separate bedrooms. If they are not living together, they are not sleeping together.

    One episode later Tom fights Neelix to the Death, nearly, for Kes.

    Would Tom have done that, killed a dude, for a PG relationship of hugs and handholding?

    That episode makes no sense.

    "FRIENDS! LISTEN TO ME CLEARLY! MY PLATONIC FRIENDSHIP WITH NEEELIX IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANY OF MY FUTURE ORGASMS! HAZAH!"

    Which is right up there with "B'Elanna! I know that you are being murdered by a vulcan sex virus and the only thing that will save you from certain death is my penis, I know my penis is the cure, but I don't want to sleep with you right now, becuase I don't think it will be a healthy start to what I suspect is going to be an awesome relationship if you don't die from this Vulcan sex virus, that my penis is totally the cure to. I'm keeping my trousers zipped up, for us... We still cool?"

    Is Tom Paris gay?
     
  3. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'd say Kes had a conflict of interest rather than calling her a moron, but YMMV...

    The opposition will, predictably, argue that Tuvix was never a person to begin with and consequently could not be "killed".
     
  4. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No, I think it's quite the opposite. Tom is so secure in his masculinity that he feels bad about taking advantage of B'Elanna's altered condition to have sex with her. He thinks that later she may resent him for having used her like that. He could be right about it.

    Harry, on the other hand, shows all the signs of someone who's gay but doesn't want to admit it to himself but that's another story.
     
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  5. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I admit I got somewhat of a ping on my gaydar from Harry.

    Then again, I got one from Tom too.

    Oh, what could have been in "The Chute"...
     
  6. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

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    If we were talking about an individual, instead of the accidental combination of two consciousnesses, you might have a point. "I am Neelix. But I am also Tukok". Please find me the individual.
     
  7. jmidnight_99

    jmidnight_99 Commander Red Shirt

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    People do not like strong women. They like women who are weak and indecisive, who run around screaming #metoo, and who are offended by anything and everything they come across.

    And one of these people had the nerve to say something about dehumanizing someone "in this political climate".

    The crime is, I'm sure the irony is lost on the lot of them.
     
  8. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    On what are you basing your assumptions that Tuvix is not an individual? Do you believe Data was an individual? Do you believe The Doctor was an individual? And if either of them were, then how is Tuvix different?

    Before you say "he was an accident", you might consider that many individuals were not intentionally conceived.

    And why are you so willing to declare Tuvix was not an individual when the cost of you being wrong would be that an individual was killed? Why are you not even willing to consider the possibility that you're wrong?

    Because if the people who have an issue with Janeway's actions are wrong, then the worst thing that happened is that we got upset over nothing meaningful. But if you're wrong then you're sweeping the death of an individual under the carpet.
     
  9. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The Doctor, fresh out of the box, is not an individual, it is a slave, who it's programmers want to stay an obedient happy slave until the end of time.

    Maybe at some point, the Doctor crossed a line and became sapient, but Kes and others were arguing that he was sapient from the 2nd episode. When did he become "real" and how many declarations about his realness existed before he became "real", if he ever did. So? It's transference that he is "real" even after he is "real"and it never matters if he is "real" or not, because the Voyager crew want him to be "real" even when he is not, and their tools for divining his "realness" are inadequate.
     
  10. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    "their tools for divining his "realness" are inadequate"

    Perhaps their tools for divining Tuvix's 'realness' were similarly inadequate...or disregarded.
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Janeway did not kill Tuvix because she thought that he was not a person.

    She thought that he was a person, and was going to let him live, before Kes had a hissy fit.

    Kathryn's final argument was Tuvok's Wife, Kes, as well as the rest of Tuvok and Neelix's family, would want Neelix and Tuvok back, more so than learning to deal with this new dude who thinks that Kes and T'Pel are legally required to sleep with him.

    Something I forgot about.

    Yes, it's as weird that Tom wouldn't sleep with B'Elanna in Blood fever, as that B'Elanna chose to die rather than sleep with Vorrik. Yes he was a rapist, a jerk and a nerd, but his penis was also the cure to her terminal illness.

    After she was healthy, then B'Elanna could have castrated and blinded Vorrik.
     
  12. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    When Tom learned that she could die, he did decide to sleep with her. They went behind some bushes and were about to get it on before he got blocked
     
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  13. SolarisOne

    SolarisOne Captain Captain

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    Oh, look, another one.
     
  14. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, it wasn't the ONLY cure. Apparently taking a good beating or giving one is a valid cure too. B'Elanna just liked the idea of beating the shit out Vorik much more than the one of sleeping with him. Who could blame her for that?:lol:
     
  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not sure how public that fact was.

    I just read the transcipt, and Tuok said that the Ladymate has defended herself from a third party suitor before. So B'Elanna's choice to kill Vorik is not unique in Vulcan history. Although from TOS I recalled that the fight, which is usually between two telepaths, had to be the death, which is why the sex is easier to stomach, than a broken spine.
     
  16. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, the Vulcan mating ritual as most things Star Trek is essentially an evolving concept. Today it's this and tomorrow it will be something (slightly) different. That's how you get from an ameba to mankind (given enough time).
     
  17. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    McCoy, the greatest Doctor in the Federation knew NOTHING about Vulcan mating rituals and biology, eye lids, brain removal, and hematology despite being Spock's primary physician.

    Either McCoy's racism is so primal that he doesn't study books on non-humans, or there were no books on Vulcan sex before McCoy was posted to the Enterprise.

    Tuvix, Tuvok, Neelix and their underwear.

    Was Tuvix wearing their undies?

    Did Neelix or Tuvok inherit Tuvix's tighty whities?
     
  18. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    While we're at it. Had they put back on Tuvix his initial accouterments, would Neelix and Tuvok have gotten their clothes back too?
     
  19. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    In the 24th century, underwear is not permitted under your uniform.
     
  20. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, it's not that big of a deal since they replicate a new one every morning, maybe they even change mid-day, who knows?