Walking Dead Season 7 Discussion - Spoilers possible!

[Trekker4747]

Negan was being.... "generous" with only wanting to execute one of Rick's group following the attacks on The Saviors but that's sort of how ruthless people operate. They make it look like they're doing you a favor by not being as harsh as they could be.

The second kill, Glenn, was only due to Daryl's lashing out.

Rick's group killed a lot of Negan's people and "understandably" Negan was upset about it and had to show force. Which he did. But, Negan's group was more the aggressor here given their actions over the course of the various encounters last season, what was seen and heard at The Hilltop and their extortion/protection racket they had on the area.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

i don't know if one season will be enough to set this up especially now that Negan turned out to be the best villain this show has so it would be a waste to kill him after just one season.

JDM is supposed to be signed for more than one season. I believe Negan will not be a 1.5 season villain like The Governor.

I think calling this "Misery Porn" is a bit strong when we've had a number of fun, upbeat, episodes. (Remember the wacky hijinks with Rick, Daryl and the food truck?) But sometimes you have to inject misery and bleakness in order to have, you know, drama.

Agreed. "Misery porn" might be some of the Saw sequels or (retroactively applied to) the Friday the 13th movies.

And now seeing one of the people he's closest to die and nearly being forced to Abraham his son Issac, he's the most defeated we've seen him since he entered his home at the beginning of all of this and couldn't find his wife and son.

Yeah, Negan trying to force Rick to cut off Carl's forearm was his ultimate breaking point--probably worse than his psychological collapse and hallucinations in the wake of Lori's death.

I've seen plenty of posts and reviews on-line the last day with people thinking the show crossed lines and went too far with the visual brutality. I wonder, where the generational divide is there? It's easy to make fun of Millennials as being coddled and such but when we're talking about a generation of people who need "Safe Zones" on college campuses that edgy comedians won't speak at anymore because people are offended by harsh jokes it's hard to not wonder if Millennials aren't more disturbed by this because the show didn't coddle them, stroke their head, and tell them the apocalypse will be okay and all fun and bunnies.

That is an insightful thought about a certain part of the Millennial generation; if you see some of the YouTube TWD reaction videos, or learn the ages of some members of TWD fan boards, you will find more from that generation who complain about violence--but hypocritically love it when it comes to astoundingly violent and increasingly realistic video games, or in film, giant airships crashing into occupied buildings, alien invasions destroying some big city, etc. when it is clear those event are costing the lives of faceless characters. But, some will try to place violence in fiction into categories--such as superhero or sci-fi violence somehow being different, but the end result of it all is that characters die. If they understood that the violence served the story--how Negan could effectively break the heroes--then there would be no complaints.

Having your characters on the top of the world able to overcome any challenge thrown at them isn't good drama.

That's right--its not good drama--that's a cartoon (or some live action TV series just as bad) where the conflicts never have lasting impact or meaning--its just good & bad week to week, instead of doing its job--creating compelling drama moving the story forward with logic and creative sense.

Life is sometimes brutal, it's even more brutal during an apocalypse. Watching Rick completely broken was powerful for me, watching Carl, stoicly, tell his dad to chop his arm off was powerful for me. (Carl, knowing Rick had no other choice.)

Carl has grown so much over the previous 6 seasons, that he's far and away one of the strongest of the core group. As a child, he's had to deal with the darkest of events sans the emotional maturity or experience of adults, yet he's met every challenge. In 7.1, he was the anchor for his father, and comforted Maggie with the quiet dignity of one three times his age. However Negan tries to manipulate him this season, I hope that inner strength shields him enough to form a defense against his tormentor.

If people are bothered by the violence, the emotions or whatever. Fine, I can get that to some degree. TV is meant for escapism and if that escapism isn't fun then, sure.

But to see complaints about the episode being too miserable, too graphic (when we've seen people's faces peeled off, babies ripped out of wombs, and pretty much every way to slaughter a dead-body imaginable) for me is a tad ridiculous. It's the apocalypse.

Yeah--is the Lucille business really so far beyond:

• Hershel's head hacked off
  
• Beth shot in the head
  
• T-Dog's neck ripped open by walkers
  
• Martinez fed to walkers
• Michonne running The Governor through with her katana
• Dale's intestines ripped from his body

..or other acts of violence in the series?

It's also interesting to see some other complaints out there about who Negan's second choice was. A FB friend said it was a racist choice which.... Okay.

Granted, racism against Asian people is, indeed, a thing and this show hardly has a good history with non-white characters but can you really claim racism played a factor in killing off a character who's been on the show as long as the main character, from the very beginning?

Modern day TV is not immune to racist handling of characters, but anyone saying Glenn's death was an example of that is on a self-generated grievance search. Are such viewers even aware of the comic book fate of Glenn? Do they watch Talking Dead? If they paid attention to the season opener, Gimple and Yeun spoke of the decision to kill Glenn was settled nearly two years ago. Two. That, and more than any other character, the shadow of Glenn's comic fate hung over the TV version for years. No one ever believed his death would be switched off like Tyreese/Hershel, Dale/Bob, et al.

Regarding blaming Daryl (his punch) for Glenn's death--some fans are really hating Daryl; they're acting as if the episode was some real, live event, and the producers had not been planning Glenn's death as early as the season 5 broadcast period. Whether Daryl punched Negan or not, Glenn would die in the Negan storyline.

 

[Starkers]

We must have been watching a different show last season.

It was pretty much directly implied (by the numerous Polaroids they found) that smashing people's brains in was standard operating procedure for them. Unless you want to try and argue that every one of those photos was in response to a group that attacked Negan's team first. But that's pretty much a laugh; the implication is that it is how Negan exerts him dominance over everyone.

Rick's group getting a double header (pun originally unintended) could be argued as an extra punishment for their preemptive strike, but someone was going to get a caved-in skull one way or the other.

Well not necessarily a caved in skull, but the Saviours Daryl, Abraham and Sasha encountered on the road did make it pretty clear that it was SOP for the Saviours to kill a member of any new group they encountered to prove a point. (They seem quite keen on hangings too)

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Well not necessarily a caved in skull, but the Saviours Daryl, Abraham and Sasha encountered on the road did make it pretty clear that it was SOP for the Saviours to kill a member of any new group they encountered to prove a point. (They seem quite keen on hangings too)

Considering all neighboring groups know the Saviors' violent habits, I wonder if TV Ezekiel will turn out to be as insecure as he seems to be in the comic when it comes to dealing with Negan, and what role will Carol & Morgan play in that--or will they return to the ASZ?

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Negan was being.... "generous" with only wanting to execute one of Rick's group following the attacks on The Saviors but that's sort of how ruthless people operate. They make it look like they're doing you a favor by not being as harsh as they could be.

The second kill, Glenn, was only due to Daryl's lashing out.

Rick's group killed a lot of Negan's people and "understandably" Negan was upset about it and had to show force. Which he did. But, Negan's group was more the aggressor here given their actions over the course of the various encounters last season, what was seen and heard at The Hilltop and their extortion/protection racket they had on the area.

I think the main thing that bothers me in attempts to paint Negan in a more reasonable light or to say he's no worse than Rick and the Alexandrians is that he clearly revels in psychologically tormenting, physically torturing, and killing people in the most brutal and drawn out way imaginable. The Alexandrians will kill in response to a threat, sometimes rather ruthlessly like they did with the Saviors compound, but they're not walking around enjoying the act of killing people the way Negan so clearly does. You're not going to find Rick behaving like a showman while dispatching some enemy group, or cracking jokes to people he's about to kill, or making them sit through a lecture while he waits to execute them. Rick and co. have embraced the brutality of this world to a degree, but they're still a far cry away from the psychotic cruelty of Negan and the Saviors.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

I think the main thing that bothers me in attempts to paint Negan in a more reasonable light or to say he's no worse than Rick and the Alexandrians is that he clearly revels in psychologically tormenting, physically torturing, and killing people in the most brutal and drawn out way imaginable. The Alexandrians will kill in response to a threat, sometimes rather ruthlessly like they did with the Saviors compound, but they're not walking around enjoying the act of killing people the way Negan so clearly does. You're not going to find Rick behaving like a showman while dispatching some enemy group, or cracking jokes to people he's about to kill, or making them sit through a lecture while he waits to execute them. Rick and co. have embraced the brutality of this world to a degree, but they're still a far cry away from the psychotic cruelty of Negan and the Saviors.

Like the time he hacked up Gareth of the Terminus group with a machete while quipping that they needed to save the bullets? Nah, Rick would never do anything like that

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Like the time he hacked up Gareth of the Terminus group with a machete while quipping that they needed to save the bullets? Nah, Rick would never do anything like that

That didn't sound at all like a joke to me.

 

[Mojochi]

Anyone saying this show is too brutal should quit now, and probably should've never watched it to begin with. I made the conscious decision, back when Hershel got decapitated, that no degree of death or specific character's death would matter to me anymore. There is no line to be over. Get it?

The point is that they all die, & all kill, & the line of where we think it's acceptable will be ever obscured. No one is safe, & no atrocity is too far. If you ain't watching it that way by now, you're watching the wrong show. That said, a 7 year show veteran stings, but whether it was gratuitous for gratuitousness' sake remains to be seen in how the aftermath plays out.

Seems to me they are planning this event to have deep & long term consequences & impact, which means this is worth something, in context. So in that sense, no, not gratuitous. Just fucking gird yourself. That's the show you're signed on for. No line. Sadly that means you'll end up caring less about the characters. They're ALL already fitted for their toe tag & they will all hopefully make you feel it was wrong, if they're doing it right

The thing I found most interesting is their propensity for trying to steer people's blame. Is Daryl to blame for Glenn? Is Rick to blame for the whole event, in poking the bear too hard? Is Morgan to blame for some folks last season? Etc... They want that to be dubious as well. There's blame enough for everyone, in spades. You'll even forget eventually.

That's the important realization, that you forget who's to blame. Personally, I hold onto that stuff longer than most. Frankly, I may be the only person who still draws this all back to Eugene's decision to lie to everyone & convince them to come to this more densely populated & thereby brutal place. It's been nothing but catastrophe, 1 war after another (Terminus, Wolves, Negan) & a bunch of simps to babysit at Alexandria.

Don't get me wrong. I'm by no means saying we or they should be holding him responsible. I'm saying that if I were Eugene, I'd feel responsible all the deaths of my group, that came from coming north on their way to D.C. especially the tyranny they'll now find themselves under, & whether you want to think of Negan as moral or not, it's still a tyranny. It seems to be the point that in times of utter duress, like this, tyranny is the only way our kind knows, & that's a pretty powerful footnote as well. That we may come to value Negan's way. The way of the tyrant, who forges a life for his fold.

 

[Starkers]

Like the time he hacked up Gareth of the Terminus group with a machete while quipping that they needed to save the bullets? Nah, Rick would never do anything like that

Rick and co have come pretty close to crossing the line on occasion, and with the event you mention, and the skull stabbing of the Saviours last season you can argue they might have one foot dangling over the line now, but to paraphrase the esteemed philosopher Joey Tribbiani, Negan is over the line, in fact he’s so far past the line that he can’t see the line any more. The line is a dot to him!

And of course as has been said where does the line even lie anymore in the world of the walking dead? It comes down to a simple question for me, would I rather end up one of Rick’s band or one of Negan’s Saviours? They may only be the good guys by dint of everyone else being worse, but they’re still the good guys. They’ve retained some fraction of nobility, morality and civilisation, aspects which are long gone within Negan’s bunch. IMHO of course.

 

[Push The Button]

As Dr. Jenner said in season one, the walker virus is the extinction event for the human race. Short of some "miracle", survivors like Rick and Negan are just rearranging the deck chairs at this point.

 

[Turtletrekker]

As Dr. Jenner said in season one, the walker virus is the extinction event for the human race. Short of some "miracle", survivors like Rick and Negan are just rearranging the deck chairs at this point.

Not necessarily. Robert Kirkman himself has said that the zombie apocalypse doesn't mean the end of mankind. Just because a character stuck within the confines of this fictional universe says that he believes that this is the end of mankind, only means that this is what that character believed at the time, not that it is an absolute truth.

Kirkman's exact words...

"I hope that Walking Dead goes on long on long enough that at the end, everyone is like, 'Good thing we took care of all those zombies!'

People talk about how The Walking Dead is bleak, but I see the story from beginning to end, over many many years, about humanity overcoming this insurmountable apocalyptic situation."

https://www.google.com/amp/www.inqu...robert-kirkman-it-will-shock-zombie-fans/amp/

 

[Starkers]

As Dr. Jenner said in season one, the walker virus is the extinction event for the human race. Short of some "miracle", survivors like Rick and Negan are just rearranging the deck chairs at this point.

I’m not sure they necessarily need a miracle as such. I’ve given this far too much thought but it strikes me that civilisation could survive, it would just need to be a very different, very regimented kind of society. In many ways the prison was a perfect exemplar for how communities should set up, except Rick and co didn’t really use it the right way. It was reasonably secure from external threats, but also had the ability to keep people safe from internal threats. Frankly everyone should have been locking themselves in a cell and sleeping alone (or locking themselves in a cell and accepting a certain level of risk) because even young healthy people occasionally just die in their sleep, but if that happens there’s no danger to the community because the new-born zombie is already safely locked up allowing you to kill it safely.

Similarly no one should ever be left alone for any length of time. Yes it’s a bugger for personal liberty but all it takes is someone having a wander who falls and hits their head and next thing you know you’ve got a zombie inside the compound, then two, then three and so on and so forth.

Like I say it wouldn’t be fantastic but with a bit of care and planning a community could manage to survive and perhaps even prosper.

However I’m still waiting for the time when someone dies but doesn’t come back (no idea if this has ever happened in the comics) because that will be the game changer, even if the next few people come back from the dead it at least gives a smidgen of hope.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Not necessarily. Robert Kirkman himself has said that the zombie apocalypse doesn't mean the end of mankind. Just because a character stuck within the confines of this fictional universe says that he believes that this is the end of mankind, only means that this is what that character believed at the time, not that it is an absolute truth.

Kirkman's exact words...

https://www.google.com/amp/www.inqu...robert-kirkman-it-will-shock-zombie-fans/amp/

Even if it is the extinction event for mankind - which doesn't have to be the case (especially if the zombie are eventually going to rot away as some have speculated) - that doesn't mean that rearranging the deck chairs is meaningless. People can die much more easily in this world, but that doesn't mean everyone will die right away. Whoever comes out on top of the inter-community struggle could conceivably live for years to come. A few of them maybe even to old age. And for plenty of people, any extra time is valuable.

 

[Trekker4747]

I think the main thing that bothers me in attempts to paint Negan in a more reasonable light or to say he's no worse than Rick and the Alexandrians is that he clearly revels in psychologically tormenting, physically torturing, and killing people in the most brutal and drawn out way imaginable. The Alexandrians will kill in response to a threat, sometimes rather ruthlessly like they did with the Saviors compound, but they're not walking around enjoying the act of killing people the way Negan so clearly does. You're not going to find Rick behaving like a showman while dispatching some enemy group, or cracking jokes to people he's about to kill, or making them sit through a lecture while he waits to execute them. Rick and co. have embraced the brutality of this world to a degree, but they're still a far cry away from the psychotic cruelty of Negan and the Saviors.

Exactly. There's no comparison to what Rick and The Group are and what The Saviors are.

Like the time he hacked up Gareth of the Terminus group with a machete while quipping that they needed to save the bullets? Nah, Rick would never do anything like that

You're still kind of dealing with different things. Negan's making actual jokes, he's seriously pretty much doing a stand-up act while toying with the idea of who he was going to kill (He knew exactly who to take out, which is why he made the EMMoe thing such a busy order) and then being a showman quipster about it. Rick was being grim and firm with a cannibal who was hunting them down for food. Worlds of, massive, difference.

Rick and co have come pretty close to crossing the line on occasion, and with the event you mention, and the skull stabbing of the Saviours last season you can argue they might have one foot dangling over the line now, but to paraphrase the esteemed philosopher Joey Tribbiani, Negan is over the line, in fact he’s so far past the line that he can’t see the line any more. The line is a dot to him!

Points for the reference.

and of course as has been said where does the line even lie anymore in the world of the walking dead? It comes down to a simple question for me, would I rather end up one of Rick’s band or one of Negan’s Saviours? They may only be the good guys by dint of everyone else being worse, but they’re still the good guys. They’ve retained some fraction of nobility, morality and civilisation, aspects which are long gone within Negan’s bunch. IMHO of course.

Indeed. Rick and his group have done terrible things but all in a measure of self-preservation, even with what they did at The Saviors compound. (Preemptive self-defense.) But they're holding onto some level of morality and a social guide while trying to find the balance in this new world they live in. They're not going around in killing people simply as a show of force and then taking half of their stuff as a contribution and then regularly going back for more lest they do something serious again.

Daryl put his own life at risk again when he tried to return the medicine to the Savior defectors he ran into last season, do you think The Saviors would have done the same? Hell, Dwight's "thanks" to Daryl was to ambush him and steal his bike and stuff.

We're dealing with groups of people on different ends of where the social lines now lay. It's a world where killing other people is more or less a fact you have to deal with sooner or later. The question is do you kill to defend yourself and those on your team, to keep them safe? Or do you kill to intimidate others into bowing to your will.

 

[Push The Button]

Not necessarily. Robert Kirkman himself has said that the zombie apocalypse doesn't mean the end of mankind. Just because a character stuck within the confines of this fictional universe says that he believes that this is the end of mankind, only means that this is what that character believed at the time, not that it is an absolute truth.

Kirkman's exact words...



https://www.google.com/amp/www.inqu...robert-kirkman-it-will-shock-zombie-fans/amp/

Rick comes out of his coma, and surprise! It was all just a bad dream. Well, Lori was still cheating on Rick with Shane, but other than that..

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Like the time he hacked up Gareth of the Terminus group with a machete while quipping that they needed to save the bullets? Nah, Rick would never do anything like that

- That wasn't a quip, they were legitimately low on bullets on account of being run out of the prison with only what they could carry. Not that that was the primary reason for killing the Termites so brutally, but he wasn't joking.
- Rick's absolute worst and most brutal moment is still less than Negan's standard operating procedure.
- Rick's group reacted to being lured to a false sanctuary, being taken hostage, being lined up for slaughter like cattle, and almost being eaten (and seeing a pile of consumed bones from hundreds of other victims). Then after they escaped, the Termites followed them, ate Bob's leg, and then tried to kill Rick's kids and friends. These were extraordinary circumstances and confronting the absolute worst of humanity.
- Rick didn't prolong the killing to deliver some jokey speech tormenting each one. He killed them immediately.
- Some of the group were horrified by their actions, and none of them (at least not visibly) took any pleasure in it.
- The Termites attacked again after being soundly defeated, and Rick's group decided to have mercy on them instead of finishing them off, which lead to this second attack. Rick could not afford to show them mercy again.

 

[bbjeg]

This was a love to hate episode. It had my attention throughout the episode and when it ended, I wanted more, but I hated to see them kill Glenn and Abraham (and l totally had my money on Eugene). I didn't read the comics and thought that those two would make it to the end, with Glen surviving everything and with Abraham being so bad ass (hoping he would leave that funk of his of late, going back to his enjoyment of ridding the world of each zombie he kills).

It seems odd that people think this episode went too far. Terminus gave people false hope to eat them, The Governor killed ruthlessly for gear, even Morgan killed a couple of guys and not even to prove a point. This is just a new level of shitty, which I hope for and expect in a post apocalyptic zombie series.

After his experience as a witness to murders that were beyond gruesome, how will he treat Enid--when he locked her in a closet for her protection? Will he become too protective, or dismissive because she has not lived through as many horrors?

She saw her parents eaten alive. If it were anyone else in Alexandria, I understand locking them up, but I'd understand Enid being mad at him for making her vulnerable locked in that closet.

He broke Rick, he broke the group and he broke the audience. I

Well said.

Rick comes out of his coma, and surprise! It was all just a bad dream. Well, Lori was still cheating on Rick with Shane, but other than that..

I would hate it if they did that. Rosanne all over again.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Not necessarily. Robert Kirkman himself has said that the zombie apocalypse doesn't mean the end of mankind. Just because a character stuck within the confines of this fictional universe says that he believes that this is the end of mankind, only means that this is what that character believed at the time, not that it is an absolute truth.

Still, if you study the world view of most WD characters, they act as if mankind--without a cure--is in some sort of end-stage. The only character who ever talked about dreams of everyone surviving and growing old was Beth, but even she only mentioned it as a dream, with the horrors recently faced (Governor 2.0) being the reality.

- Rick's absolute worst and most brutal moment is still less than Negan's standard operating procedure.

I still maintain that Rick running into Officer Bob Lamson's back (crippling him), then executing him was a purely ruthless act. Lamson was running, but Rick did not have to hit him squarely in the back, particularly when (as an example) the other cops purposely sideswiped Noah to stop him earlier that day. In other words, Rick (another experienced driver) had options. Rick's echoing Gareth's "can't go back, Bob" then shooting him to death, was designed to tell the audience that Rick had crossed the line. That, and remember, his original rescue plan of Beth entailed a running killing spree of throat slashing, etc.

Only Tyreese's prisoner exchange idea prevented what would have been a bloodbath.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

^Let's also not forget that Rick's gang had to talk him out of basically commandeering Alexandria and to hell with the residents. "We can take this place!"

 

[bbjeg]

I don't know if it's too soon for jokes but my brother told me a hilarious one;

What was Glen's last meal?

Spoiler