USS Enterprise (eventually) on Discovery?

[Tomalak]

TOS was implicitly consistent with its writers’ bible in that nobody every tried to introduce something like the Federation-class dreadnought FJ would propose after the fact, not to mention that Kirk’s “only twelve like it in the fleet” would’ve been somewhat deflated if it was just a count with no implied precedence.

It's been a while, and I can't access my copy at the moment, but wasn't the Dreadnought not yet launched according to the SFTM? I thought it was on the drawing board as the next planned class to launch?

We know the Dreadnought Entente exists as of TMP, but it feels like the class was pretty much obsolete as soon as it was launched.

Either way, it doesn't factor into TOS or contradict the Constitution being the premier Starfleet design. Nor does the Crossfield.

 

[Timo]

...Naturally, in-universe, the characters have their excuses. Tilly is only in awe (how?) because Burnham tells her to be. And Burnham has a brotheroid serving on one, for reasons that must have seemed extremely logical to him; Burnham looks up to the brotheroid and his life choices.

Outside this, the two DSC seasons don't really establish much that would be in conflict or support of the TOS indifference. Pike's bruised ego is soothed by (possibly baseless) claims that his ship was held in reserve for her awesomeness, but there's no context to that. What we see is an obvious "older" design, the only one out of the lot with ENT style engines. And as said, Pike's bunch returns whatever courtesy they receive by finding Burnham's, ahem Saru's ship the epitome of awesomeness or whatever.

What is interesting is that the Enterprise herself is not famous in DSC. She just happens to be Captain Pike's ship, and Pike is famous as all hell. Not something easily derived from TOS or its background material - but again, not really a contradiction of anything.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

It's been a while, and I can't access my copy at the moment, but wasn't the Dreadnought not yet launched according to the SFTM?

Pretty sure you are right about this. Though I doubt it was obsolete any more than a Miranda was once the Excelsior was commissioned.

 

[Timo]

One wouldn't rule out the other: many a battleship was made obsolete mere months after (or before!) launching by the introduction of HMS Dreadnought, say. There might be something to the prominent lack of three-nacellers in any era other than "immediate pre-TNG".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

The show said it was a special class of ship. Only twelve like it, he commands not a spaceship but a starship and so on...

Did Kirk specifically call the class "special?" Just stating the number of ships of that class doesn't mean that the Connies were any more special than, say, the Miranda class.

We know the Dreadnought Entente exists as of TMP, but it feels like the class was pretty much obsolete as soon as it was launched.

The only thing canon about the Entente is its name, registry number, and ship type (dreadnought). For all we know it looks completely different from FJ's design.

 

[BillJ]

There might be something to the prominent lack of three-nacellers in any era other than "immediate pre-TNG".

Yup. Roddenberry didn’t like the attention Joseph’s work received from fandom.

 

[BillJ]

Did Kirk specifically call the class "special?" Just stating the number of ships of that class doesn't mean that the Connies were any more special than, say, the Miranda class.

You don’t have to use the exact word to glean the meaning of something. Captain Christopher comments on the Enterprise being impressive and Kirk proudly states there are only twelve like it in the fleet.

 

[Dukhat]

You don’t have to use the exact word to glean the meaning of something. Captain Christopher comments on the Enterprise being impressive and Kirk proudly states there are only twelve like it in the fleet.

Yes, but for all we know, Kirk feels that they are special because he's served on three of them, and one as captain. Just like someone else who serves on the Reliant or Saratoga might feel that that class is 'special.'

 

[BillJ]

Yes, but for all we know, Kirk feels that they are special because he's served on three of them, and one as captain. Just like someone else who serves on the Reliant or Saratoga might feel that that class is 'special.'

You read it your way, I’ll read it the way the writers and creators obviously intended.

Which is why I treat TOS as its own distinct entity.

 

[Dukhat]

You read it your way, I’ll read it the way the writers and creators obviously intended.

Which is why I treat TOS as its own distinct entity.

I'm not arguing about the intent. I'm just pointing out that it's not hard proof that the Constitution class was in any way more or less special than any other class of starship.

 

[Tuskin38]

The only thing canon about the Entente is its name, registry number, and ship type (dreadnought). For all we know it looks completely different from FJ's design.

The Federation class did show up on a monitor in the training simulator in Wrath of Khan, but yeah there is nothing on screen connecting the two ships.

 

[Timo]

Certainly we should realize that "she's a starship" and "she's one out of just a dozen" are not in any way connected in the material that made it to the screen. One doesn't derive from the other; the possible uniqueness of being a starship is not related to being one out of twelve, the possible "uniqueness" of being one out of twelve is not related to being a starship.

Where the two might start to merge is things like "Doomsday Machine" where being "a starship by configuration" means looking exactly like Kirk's ship. But that's not a = sign there, either: Kirk's ship type is an acceptable member of the category titled "starships", but we knew that already.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DaveyNY]

I don't understand why some folks are so intent on denigrating the Constitution Class of Starships and/or the ENTERPRISE.

We've been led to believe by FIFTY YEARS of assorted episodes that both are in a very special class of their own by the characters in the stories themselves.

Why is it so important to now knock them off that pedestal?

 

[BillJ]

Why is it so important to now knock them off that pedestal?

Because “new” is automatically better in the eyes of some folks. If the Connie’s are the best of the mid-23rd century, then their chosen ship can’t be the best.

 

[Dukhat]

The Federation class did show up on a monitor in the training simulator in Wrath of Khan, but yeah there is nothing on screen connecting the two ships.

I believe it was only the outline of the dreadnought, not the dreadnought itself.

I don't understand why some folks are so intent on denigrating the Constitution Class of Starships and/or the ENTERPRISE.

We've been led to believe by FIFTY YEARS of assorted episodes that both are in a very special class of their own by the characters in the stories themselves.

Why is it so important to now knock them off that pedestal?

I'm not knocking anything. I love the TOS Constitution class. But there's nothing all that special about it in-universe that makes it any different from any other ship class we've seen in DSC.

 

[DaveyNY]

I believe it was only the outline of the dreadnought, not the dreadnought itself.



I'm not knocking anything. I love the TOS Constitution class. But there's nothing all that special about it in-universe that makes it any different from any other ship class we've seen in DSC.

In Your Opinion

I very much disagree.

 

[Dukhat]

In Your Opinion

I very much disagree.

You're entitled to your opinion as well.

And BTW, it's realIy not necessary to keep quoting "In Your Opinion" to me. That's the second time you've done that to one of my posts. I'm well aware that it's my opinion and I don't need reminders of that from you.

 

[Tuskin38]

I believe it was only the outline of the dreadnought, not the dreadnought itself.

It was an image straight from the Tech Manual AFAIK.

I'm not knocking anything. I love the TOS Constitution class. But there's nothing all that special about it in-universe that makes it any different from any other ship class we've seen in DSC.

Well as far as we know, the Connie is the only class used for 5 year missions. So there must be something special about it that they don't use any other class.

 

[Dukhat]

It was an image straight from the Tech Manual AFAIK.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/sftm.htm

Bernd says that only the outline was shown, and not even in its entirety.

Well as far as we know, the Connie is the only class used for 5 year missions. So there must be something special about it that they don't use any other class.

Do we know that for a fact?

 

[Tuskin38]

Bernd says that only the outline was shown, and not even in its entirety.

And said outline came from the tech manual. That doesn't counter what I said lmao.

Yeah it's barely visible. It really doesn't count.