USS Enterprise (eventually) on Discovery?

[lawman]

Welcome to sci-fi, you mean. In any case, human aliens never really looked alien to me.

And, so? Keep in mind what Star Trek is about. The point is not to do hard SF with biologically plausible aliens (there's prose that does that, but it's a lot harder on film... although Arrival made a nice effort). Nor is it to creep out viewers with shockingly strange aliens (for that you've got franchises like Aliens and Predator).

In Trek, the point of aliens — not just Klingons, but almost all of them — has been to reflect different aspects of the human experience, whether political, cultural, psychological, economic, or what-have-you.

The Klingon makeover in DSC did not facilitate achieving this. In fact, it did pretty much the opposite.

Compare that to brown face make up? Sorry, I still don't see how that would be ok.

Nobody's talking "Day of the Dove" here. Take a look at the actual makeup used for the post-Augment-Virus Klingons in ENT "Divergence." There's nothing about it that would cause any racial offense or justify being called "brownface."

Always funny how quickly talk of Klingons derails a thread. Anyhow, back on the Discoprise and seeing the eaglemoss ortho i'm happy with it overall. Of course I have my personal nitpicks but for a minor redesign it fits the bill and blends well into the new visual precedent set by the show.

FWIW, I could care less whether it blends into "the new visual precedent" set by DSC. (It's not as if there's anything particularly compelling or even coherent about that anyway.) I care about how it blends into the visual milieux of the last 50-odd years of Star Trek overall, and particularly of TOS.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The Tartigrade is pretty non-humanoid looking.

It is, but it also looks like a tardigrade.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardigrade

Honestly, the use of a real-world microscopic form presented too much of a struggle for me to regard it as actually either clever or something with serious thought behind it, especially since they stopped short of asserting or even just positing any evolutionary connection between the forms, say via panspermia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia

 

[Lord Garth]

It is, but it also looks like a tardigrade.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardigrade

Honestly, the use of a real-world microscopic form presented too much of a struggle for me to regard it as actually either clever or something with serious thought behind it.

Wow... I didn't even know that was a real species!

 

[Belz...]

Does putting a bag on someone's head make them look less human?

I can see that you didn't take my advice. Again, a tremendous amound of effort to miss the point, although this time I'm not foolish enough to try and explain it to you.

They look like people in makeup, as opposed to people in different kinds of makeup. so, yeah, I guess I am, seriously.

Then you're talking nonsense and there's little point in discussing this further. Obviously, to any rational person, there are ways to make human actors more alien than not.

In Trek, the point of aliens — not just Klingons, but almost all of them — has been to reflect different aspects of the human experience, whether political, cultural, psychological, economic, or what-have-you.

Yes, and that's always been silly. If you want to reflect aspects of the human experience you can do that with human characters.

 

[Jadeb]

Honestly, the use of a real-world microscopic form presented too much of a struggle for me to regard it as actually either clever or something with serious thought behind it, especially since they stopped short of asserting or even just positing any evolutionary connection between the forms, say via panspermia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia

That drove me crazy.

 

[Longinus]

Yes, I want the Vulcans and Romulans to change as well. But, my general attitude is to have aliens be more alien in some way.

I actually agree on general level. I could not have minded if they had tweaked the Vulcan as bit. Nothing excessive, I think ST09 Romulans had actually nice and subtle nose ans eye prosthetics that made them look a tad more alienish (Jeylah from Beyond had something similar.) And of course there should be more noticeable copper/green tinge in their complexion. Copper skin, slightly greenish lips. I think since ST09 Vulcans seem to have lost that little copper tinge their skin used to have before. They seem to be completely human coloured now.

However, I think the Klingon redesign went too far. They look like generic space orcs now. Big bad bald aliens/monsters are really common and these Klingons are terribly generic in that way. With the hair they lost a huge chink of their character. I don't really even mind the overall makeup (apart the four nostrils design which just painfully draws attention to the fact that it is a mask), but they should have kept the hair, eyebrows and moustaches in particular. As I've said countless times, Klingons should look feral, so more werewolf, less vampire.

 

[Fandango831]

FWIW, I could care less whether it blends into "the new visual precedent" set by DSC. (It's not as if there's anything particularly compelling or even coherent about that anyway.) I care about how it blends into the visual milieux of the last 50-odd years of Star Trek overall, and particularly of TOS.

Then I guess in the entertainment world they'd just say you're not part of the target audience. As per history Trek fans will almost always be one of the most virulent when it comes to what they perceive as the defense of their head canon and the direction they want things to go whether that be visuals, story, characters, etc. It happened when TNG came out, it happened when ENT came out, again with the Kelvin movies, and of course currently with DSC. Sure every series has some form of homage to its last but overall that's clearly only meant as fan service for the "oldies" (and I say that loosely) who choose to stick around. Otherwise most biased Trek fans just curl up swearing to never advocate the new blasphemy before them with whatever their remnants are of what they see as correct and occasionally moaning about how it'll never be as good as the golden years.

I appreciate people's love for what once was. I'm a personal lover of TOS and DS9 specifically, but in the end new is inevitable and frankly that's what makes the show as a whole tick as time goes on. DSC aims to do its own thing with relative homage to what was (which I appreciate when done well), but in the end will always look to make a Trek for new peoples and those of old who want to tag along. Tis the reality of Star Trek

 

[Mudd]

The target audience here appears now to be a very small group of trufans who the studio perceives to be absolutely reliable. As long as a couple million of them - two million new subscribers? - pony up, the show's fulfilled its only reason for existence.

 

[Lord Garth]

The target audience here appears now to be a very small group of trufans who the studio perceives to be absolutely reliable. As long as a couple million of them - two million new subscribers? - pony up, the show's fulfilled its only reason for existence.

Absolutely Reliable? I wouldn't go that far. I skipped out on most of the Star Trek airing from 1999 to 2005 when it was airing. While it's true that I'm a fan of Discovery, if I ever start to get the sense I'm not enjoying it and don't see that changing, I'm out. The same as any other series (not just Star Trek) that I've done that to.

I'll watch as long as I like it and will stop as soon as I don't. I know that makes me weird.

 

[Tuskin38]

I don't understand why some people come here just to say they don't like the show.

Or people who hate watch

Or people who complain about something they don't watch.

 

[AlanC9]

Where else are they going to find people who read posts about how much they hate the thing they hate?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Obviously, to any rational person, there are ways to make human actors more alien than not.

Of course there are (see the Horta for a simple low-budget example, though admittedly the person inside often isn't really thought of as an "actor" anymore, but as an operator perhaps, as in the case of Jabba). None of those ways were used for DISCO Klingons, though.

 

[Gonzo]

Yes, I want the Vulcans and Romulans to change as well. But, my general attitude is to have aliens be more alien in some way.

And to your point, yes I think there is a need to recognize when to stop. Now, I'll admit to be being biased, because I generally connect with more alien characters and outsiders, not by facial expression, but by voice and tone and body language. So, perhaps I'm a poor judge on this count. I have also stated that I think the actors should be able to act through it, but my threshold for that seems to be lower than others so I'll grant that since it is a recurring complaint about the acting I'll concede that point.

That's fair enough Fireproof78.

I love some of the makeup and prosthetics we have had over the years in the various series, highlights for me include the Ferengi and the Borg, I just think it is very important that in adding so much makeup and prosthetics to the actors that the importance of the actual acting isn't lost along the way.

I think they have gone too far with the Klingons in Discovery made even worse by the Klingon language overload in the Pilot, yet the Klingons in Enterprise and TNG hit the sweet spot being able to still show emotion and intensity, there is something to be said for a character acted well with minimal makeup over an actor who can't be seen anymore under a ton of makeup and rubber.

I know which I would choose.

 

[Prax]

This might be old news, but I just ran across a youtube video talking about the Enterprise uniforms for season 2 of Discovery, and they had pictures. They are extremely faithful to the TOS uniforms. They've even brought back the braided ranks.

Good on them.

 

[Rahul]

I love some of the makeup and prosthetics we have had over the years in the various series, highlights for me include the Ferengi and the Borg, I just think it is very important that in adding so much makeup and prosthetics to the actors that the importance of the actual acting isn't lost along the way.

I think they have gone too far with the Klingons in Discovery made even worse by the Klingon language overload in the Pilot, yet the Klingons in Enterprise and TNG hit the sweet spot being able to still show emotion and intensity, there is something to be said for a character acted well with minimal makeup over an actor who can't be seen anymore under a ton of makeup and rubber.

I know which I would choose.

It also depends on the role: The Hirogen make-up was perfectl on Voyager. Because the Hirogen didn't do a lot of talking. They were hunting, and the actors were capable of portraying that aspect of the characters pretty great with their body language, voice and attitude. Apart from that, the characters didn't had that much dialogue, so it was enough that they could move their faces to speak their lines.

The klingons (especially on DIS) had more traditional "talking" roles: The drama most of the time was basically in what they were saying. And it's a damn shame they were put under so much make-up and had to speak in a made-up language the entire time. They were clearly playing roles that were in dire need of facial expressions. That's why the rubber mask didn't work.

It's as if someone wanted the Gorn from TOS to talk: That would simply be the wrong make-up for the wrong role. While at the same time a purely physical role like the M13 salt creature can be buried under enough make-up that no human is recognizable, aliens having a large talking role need to be able to move their face and have only minimal make-up there, like the Andorians who simply use color and additional features to signify their "alien-ness".

 

[Gonzo]

It also depends on the role: The Hirogen make-up was perfectl on Voyager. Because the Hirogen didn't do a lot of talking. They were hunting, and the actors were capable of portraying that aspect of the characters pretty great with their body language, voice and attitude. Apart from that, the characters didn't had that much dialogue, so it was enough that they could move their faces to speak their lines.

The klingons (especially on DIS) had more traditional "talking" roles: The drama most of the time was basically in what they were saying. And it's a damn shame they were put under so much make-up and had to speak in a made-up language the entire time. They were clearly playing roles that were in dire need of facial expressions. That's why the rubber mask didn't work.

It's as if someone wanted the Gorn from TOS to talk: That would simply be the wrong make-up for the wrong role. While at the same time a purely physical role like the M13 salt creature can be buried under enough make-up that no human is recognizable, aliens having a large talking role need to be able to move their face and have only minimal make-up there, like the Andorians who simply use color and additional features to signify their "alien-ness".

I had forgotten about the Hirogen they were really well done, Andorians were solid as well, not forgetting Saru of course who they got spot on, must be a nightmare for the actor in makeup though.

Think of the Kazon who admittedly were just Klingon copies with a changed backstory, the makeup was just right ensuring that the actors were able to show the full range of emotions.

I loved watching Discovery I really did but opportunities for greatness were missed, I think the Starfleet ships are great and all the actors have done fine work they should be proud of, its just the Klingon appearance and ships that detract from what it could have been, maybe it was too much network interference, too many cooks in the kitchen or a by product of the switch from the original multiple era plan to one based solely in the 23rd century.

How much greater would the pilot have been if the Klingons had minimal makeup like in ToS or looked like they do in Enterprise/TNG, enabling them to deliver their Klingon language lines with passion/raw emotion and the Klingon ships in the pilot battle were recognisable D5/D6/D7's and Birds of Prey.

Its just a shame and a missed opportunity to achieve true greatness.

 

[Rahul]

I had forgotten about the Hirogen they were really well done, Andorians were solid as well, not forgetting Saru of course who they got spot on, must be a nightmare for the actor in makeup though.

Saru has one uncatchable advantage: A fucking MIME! One that really can act. Doug Jones is probably the best buried-under-make-up actor currently living, and his Oscar for "Shape of Water" more than overdue.

Any other actor would have completely failed under the Saru make-up. This one was uniquely designed for him, and it works. But that is because of the actor being capapble to reduce his acting almost entirely to his eyes, his body language, and his voice. This guy can act - without moving his face.

There simply aren't that many other actors around capable of doing that. And those need to be allowed to perform with their faces. Your other examples are completely right: I think the Kazon make-up was pretty uninspired. But it allowed the actors to act. The Cardassians was a good make-up for that as well. I LOVE the Xindi-reptile make-up on ENT. But that's just too much to properly act beneath it - and the showrunners knew, and give only minimal speaking time to them, and have them perform mostly via their actions, or gave them dialogue that didn't need nuanced expression.

Man, creating sci-fi must be friggin' hard. SO MUCH to need to think about!

 

[Tuskin38]

This might be old news, but I just ran across a youtube video talking about the Enterprise uniforms for season 2 of Discovery, and they had pictures. They are extremely faithful to the TOS uniforms. They've even brought back the braided ranks.

Good on them.

We have a thread dedicated to that already.

 

[fireproof78]

Man, creating sci-fi must be friggin' hard. SO MUCH to need to think about!

It really is, which is why it's so easy to get wrong.

 

[Jadeb]

I suspect Saru will turn out to be like Spock: the first of his kind we meet, introduced in a portrayal that can't be matched by any of the other actors that follow as that species.