Unseen TOS....

[trynda1701]

I'm going to do this again from scratch but with tweaks built in rather than try to correct the existing model. Aspects of it bug me when viewed from certain angles.

Awww, I liked this little one.

Will be interesting to see what you come up with from scratch.

 

[trynda1701]

Yes, but D74, actually (although an argument can be made that it's DY4). The Klingon alphabet in question (as far as I am aware) originated from the "USS Enterprise Officer's Manual" (1980) by Geoffrey Mandell. I think it was called "Klingonasse". There may be an earlier instance, but I don't know of it:
View attachment 36792View attachment 36794

"D7A" was a FASA invention - an upgrade to the D7, called the K't'agga class.

I stand corrected! Was sure it was 'A', but then, as a FASA fan, I was probably influenced memory wise!

I think that Manual was where I also first saw that list.

I can see what you say about DY4, but look at the bottom right end of the symbol on the model. It slopes top left to bottom right, which the '7' symbol does, whereas the 'Y' symbol slopes bottom left to top right.

Those symbols are also a bit more curved than the model ones, which seemed to influence future Trek productions, which, of course, are outside this threads content.

Sorry for the diversion, I hadn't been on since the 11th, and missed three pages! I now return us to our regular scheduled thread subject!

 

[Warped9]

Awww, I liked this little one.

Will be interesting to see what you come up with from scratch.

It’s not going to look radically different. Just tweaked in a few respects. The two main things that didn’t work out for me were the flat surfaces on top and bottom of the main hull and the bow not being a perfect circle as I tried flattening the nose a bit to be different. Those didn’t work out (to my eye) as I’d hoped.

I also try to mindful of construction—how difficult could something be to build in a relatively short time frame. Sometimes I discard ideas I feel might be too elaborate or complicated to do relatively quickly. The Klingon D7 is an excellent example of an elaborate design within reach of the era albeit with sufficient time and resources to build. A studio workshop pressed for time might find such a design beyond reach. Then again with sufficient lead time I might be being too skeptical.

I think it goes without saying the actual miniatures might look a bit more rough than my 3D models given they didn’t need to withstand feature film scrutiny, but seen mostly quickly on a smallish CRT television screen.

 

[137th Gebirg]

I stand corrected! Was sure it was 'A', but then, as a FASA fan, I was probably influenced memory wise!

I think that Manual was where I also first saw that list.

I can see what you say about DY4, but look at the bottom right end of the symbol on the model. It slopes top left to bottom right, which the '7' symbol does, whereas the 'Y' symbol slopes bottom left to top right.

Those symbols are also a bit more curved than the model ones, which seemed to influence future Trek productions, which, of course, are outside this threads content.

Sorry for the diversion, I hadn't been on since the 11th, and missed three pages! I now return us to our regular scheduled thread subject!

Well, ya know, the number "4" is Leetspeak for "A", so you're not entirely incorrect.

 

[trynda1701]

Well, ya know, the number "4" is Leetspeak for "A", so you're not entirely incorrect.
View attachment 36898

 

[Warped9]

Random thoughts while working up my revised model.

A scoutship’s primary role is reconnaissance—to “scout” out and gather information of unknown territory or enemy movement. A secondary role could be to perform sensitive operations with the idea that a smaller vessel might have a better chance of eluding detection.

Whoever was commanding the Klingon scoutship that attacked the Enterprise in “Errand Of Mercy” was an idiot. The Klingon knew a frontline Federation starship was in the area. As such his primary duty was to inform higher command of that intelligence. Now he might have done that and most likely did, but we have no definite knowledge of it.

His next action, though, was monumentally stupid. He had to know, or should have known, he had zero chance of taking out the Enterprise. Why engage an opponent you have no chance of defeating particularly when you have intel your higher command needs? And as we know, and the Klingon likely should have known, the Enterprise didn’t even know the scoutship was there…until the dummy advertised his presence by attacking.

So the Klingon threw away his advantage of stealth along with throwing his ship and his crew’s lives for…nothing. All he accomplished was confirm Klingon forces were in the area, info you can bet the Enterprise transmitted to higher command.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Random thoughts while working up my revised model.

A scoutship’s primary role is reconnaissance—to “scout” out and gather information of unknown territory or enemy movement. A secondary role could be to perform sensitive operations with the idea that a smaller vessel might have a better chance of eluding detection.

Whoever was commanding the Klingon scoutship that attacked the Enterprise in “Errand Of Mercy” was an idiot. The Klingon knew a frontline Federation starship was in the area. As such his primary duty was to inform higher command of that intelligence. Now he might have done that and most likely did, but we have no definite knowledge of it.

His next action, though, was monumentally stupid. He had to know, or should have known, he had zero chance of taking out the Enterprise. Why engage an opponent you have no chance of defeating particularly when you have intel your higher command needs? And as we know, and the Klingon likely should have known, the Enterprise didn’t even know the scoutship was there…until the dummy advertised his presence by attacking.

So the Klingon threw away his advantage of stealth along with throwing his ship and his crew’s lives for…nothing. All he accomplished was confirm Klingon forces were in the area, info you can bet the Enterprise transmitted to higher command.

We have too many unknowns, so I can't agree. The Klingon had the element of surprise. Maybe they didn't know whether they would succeed or fail. Spock said they were "most fortunate." Maybe the Klingons had a 20% chance or better of sending the Enterprise back to spacedock. For all we know the Enterprise got a lucky shot in, when Kirk ordered them to maintain firing rate. Kirk had no idea what class of ship was attacking them. Maybe not all captains would have held the line and fought against a craft of unknown type, but instead some would have tried to escape.

 

[publiusr]

Leyte was an example of that...a carrier was sent to the bottom by deck guns, and the ferocity of smaller USN ships turned Kurita around...but that was still part of a task force.

My guess is that Klingon ships are hardy.

 

[BK613]

Was there something outside of the dialog in the script in 'Errand of Mercy' that named it a scoutship? Because the dialog doesn't say anything about the size of the vessel as far as I can tell. And one could make a valid argument that it punched as hard against the fully-functional E in this episode as the D7 battlecruiser did against the crippled Enterprise in 'Elaan of Troyius'.
(And perhaps just as weak defensively, given the damage a single torpedo did against the D7.)

 

[Warped9]

There are always exceptions, but generally you don’t pointlessly take on a more powerful opponent unless you’re in a dire situation and your back is to the wall. The Klingon scout was in neither of those situations. The attack was out of pure ego to score a big kill particularly given it accomplished nothing.

This is, of course, from a Federation perspective. It could well be the Klingon had standing orders to attack any and all enemy targets regardless of circumstance. Even so it still amounts to a pointless waste of hardware and personnel.

The Japanese kamikaze in WW2 was also a useless effort. It made zero difference in stalling American advancement yet wasted countless Japanese lives for zero gain. It was ideology and desperation with no basis in objective reasoning.

 

[blssdwlf]

Random thoughts while working up my revised model.

A scoutship’s primary role is reconnaissance—to “scout” out and gather information of unknown territory or enemy movement. A secondary role could be to perform sensitive operations with the idea that a smaller vessel might have a better chance of eluding detection.

Whoever was commanding the Klingon scoutship that attacked the Enterprise in “Errand Of Mercy” was an idiot. The Klingon knew a frontline Federation starship was in the area. As such his primary duty was to inform higher command of that intelligence. Now he might have done that and most likely did, but we have no definite knowledge of it.

His next action, though, was monumentally stupid. He had to know, or should have known, he had zero chance of taking out the Enterprise. Why engage an opponent you have no chance of defeating particularly when you have intel your higher command needs? And as we know, and the Klingon likely should have known, the Enterprise didn’t even know the scoutship was there…until the dummy advertised his presence by attacking.

So the Klingon threw away his advantage of stealth along with throwing his ship and his crew’s lives for…nothing. All he accomplished was confirm Klingon forces were in the area, info you can bet the Enterprise transmitted to higher command.

The way the scene plays out it seemed like the Klingon warship and the Enterprise detected each other at the same time. The Klingons attacked because that is what they were expected to do. The only difference is that the Enterprise was stationary was moving and the Klingon was traveling when they both detected each other.

If the Enterprise could not identify the Klingon ship it is likely the Klingon ship could not identify the Enterprise. It would have just been two enemy ships firing at each other because they were enemies.

EDIT: Regarding Klingon strength - note that in the same episode, multiple ships (up to 8) fired on the Enterprise but could not immediately take it down and in a later episode, "Elaan of Troyius", a Klingon Battlecruiser would not close in to take on a sabotaged Enterprise until it was absolutely sure it was crippled. So Scout or Battlecruiser or something in-between, there does not appear to be a Klingon ship in TOS that would have faired better in a one-on-one battle, IMHO.

EDIT: Enterprise arrives at a "designated position" but VFX showed them in motion when fighting.

 

[Warped9]

My guess is that Klingon ships are hardy.

Apparently not given how easily the cripples Enterprise disabled a fully functional D7 in “Elaan Of Troyius.”

The way the scene plays out it seemed like the Klingon warship and the Enterprise detected each other at the same time. The Klingons attacked because that is what they were expected to do. The only difference is that the Enterprise was stationary and the Klingon was traveling when they both detected each other.

If the Enterprise could not identify the Klingon ship it is likely the Klingon ship could not identify the Enterprise. It would have just been two enemy ships firing at each other because they were enemies.

We don’t know the Enterprise was standing still.

 

[blssdwlf]

We don’t know the Enterprise was standing still.

Fair enough. We only know the Enterprise reached a "designated position". During the battle the VFX does show her in motion. In that case, they likely ran into each other while traveling to their respective destinations. YMMV.

EDIT: I typed too quickly. Updating response.

 

[aridas sofia]

As I have pointed out before, on multiple occasions in TOS, small ships have demonstrated the ability to channel 100% power to weapons. This kind of tactical ability would leave the attacker vulnerable if its attack failed to disable or destroy its opponent. A “scout” in Klingon parlance might just as well be a “hunter”. Both seek out. In fact, the unidentified ship in EoM behaved like a hunter. It sought out then attacked. Having failed to destroy or disable Enterprise, is was then left vulnerable. That might be one way to go.

OTOH, who knows what that ship was meant to represent? The scene plays like a sub attacking a surface vessel - much as the BoP in BoT, but without the same kind of overwhelming weapon. But it also plays like the Orion vessel in “Elaan of Troyius”.

It is so ambiguous that you can really treat it anyway you like.

 

[Warped9]

I’m getting near the end of detailing my revised model. Should have something soon and then on to colours.

 

[Albertese]

Apparently not given how easily the cripples Enterprise disabled a fully functional D7 in “Elaan Of Troyius.”

And didn't the Enterprise destroy Kang's D-7 in "The Day of the Dove" with a single torpedo? Not a fully operational ship, but it does say something about the robustness of a Klingon ship vs. a photon torpedo. But then, given how nervous Commander Chekov was in TUC when Kronos One was threatening to fire a torpedo at Enterprise and Kirk wasn't raising shields, I would think that torpedoes punch unshielded ships pretty damn hard!

--Alex

 

[Warped9]

I believe the Enterprise used phasers against Kang's disabled ship. It blew up instantly.

 

[publiusr]

The K'tinga photon back looks more powerful than the refit---though it became a beam weapon by DS9 via retrofit I suppose.

 

[BK613]

And didn't the Enterprise destroy Kang's D-7 in "The Day of the Dove" with a single torpedo? Not a fully operational ship, but it does say something about the robustness of a Klingon ship vs. a photon torpedo. But then, given how nervous Commander Chekov was in TUC when Kronos One was threatening to fire a torpedo at Enterprise and Kirk wasn't raising shields, I would think that torpedoes punch unshielded ships pretty damn hard!

I believe the Enterprise used phasers against Kang's disabled ship. It blew up instantly.

Yeah, it was phasers. But I'm not sure what we can draw from that considering the Entity acted somehow first:

KIRK: Total reply if attacked. So that's the answer. Klingons.
SULU: Trouble aboard the Klingon ship. Evidence of explosions, massive destruction.
SPOCK [OC]: Captain, the enemy ship is drifting, totally disabled.
SPOCK: And we never fired upon her.
​

 

[publiusr]

There might have been a mutiny inside...even if not provoked by the entity.

A pitched battle inside...a previous engagement with another vessel might have left that particular D-7 vulnerable...though a smaller ship that Warped9 is doing would sit better with me.