Unpopular TUC View

[Kryton]

This is one of three currently-available Trek films I do not intend to ever own or re-watch (well, I guess I own it on VHS, but I don't have a working such player).

Didn't enjoy it in the theatre...was no more impressed when it came out on tape.

BTW, the other two are V and X...for, I assume to most, what should be fairly obvious reasons. I only own Insurrection because it had just been released to DVD when I got my first player back in the day.

 

[Shaw]

I can only assume that the court reporter critique has to be based on an unfamiliarity with TOS. After all, during Spock's trial in The Menagerie there was a court reporter in the room with a tricorder making a fully independent record of the proceedings (which one would assume would be the version she would notarize as a witness of those proceedings).


As for the use of books, beyond the fact that I recall the dialect not being part of the universal translator's database, I would think that it is self evident that in some cases having a printed book is far better than a computer file. I have PDF versions of many of my books, but I would rather have the paper version in front of me rather than the on screen version when in a rushed search for information. The main place where non-printed material works best for me is when I'm away from home... in which case the many gigabytes of PDF books I have on my laptop are way better than attempting to carry around hundreds of pounds of books.

But in the end, I can't thumb through PDFs like I can a printed document to discover what I might not have known was there to begin with. Computer searches are sadly limited to looking for things you either know or believe are present in a document, but they do nothing to help reveal what you might not have known was there.


And as for the Nixon reference, I have to wonder if you guys don't get out enough. Time and again I've seen what is basically a running joke of a person of one culture assimilating a anecdote which is clearly of another culture. Spock knew this wasn't a Vulcan saying, but the humor of it wouldn't have been lost on Kirk... nor the logic of using such humor to defuse Kirk's anger at being pulled into the situation against his will.

It is truly sad when a great line like that is lost on those who apply a far too literal reference to it. It was an exchange between friends at a point of high tension and was an attempt to lighten Kirk's mood a little... attempting to draw more links there than that is not only quite odd, but also means that subtleties character interactions are wasted on this audience as well.

This reminds me of the scene in 2001 where Heywood Floyd steps out of the phone booth, turns the opposite direction from the Howard Johnson's he was to meet with Miller, and walks over to the Russian scientist. Most of the people I know thought this was just some simple exchange, but is was complete orchestrated by Floyd to help plant the seeds of the cover story. The subtleties of character interactions like that are what make movies worth seeing... everything else is back drop.

Hey, I'm a techno-Trekkie to the extreme, but I am able to put story first when watching a production and all the technical stuff a distant second. While I didn't care for TFF's technical presence on screen, it was the embarrassing charactitures of the crew in that story that I found insulting.

 

[A beaker full of death]

I can only assume that the court reporter critique has to be based on an unfamiliarity with TOS. After all, during Spock's trial in The Menagerie there was a court reporter in the room with a tricorder making a fully independent record of the proceedings (which one would assume would be the version she would notarize as a witness of those proceedings).

That was on a starbase. Personnel (such as the hearing panel) had been shipped in for the trial. Obviously, if the were sending JAG officers like the prosecutor, they were sending a stenographer too.
The idea that an active duty starship has someone with the duty title "Court Reporter" is laughable.

While I didn't care for TFF's technical presence on screen, it was the embarrassing charactitures of the crew in that story that I found insulting.

Of TFF??? That was the one movie to get them all right. They were utterly unrecognizable in TUC.

 

[balls]

I can only assume that the court reporter critique has to be based on an unfamiliarity with TOS. After all, during Spock's trial in The Menagerie there was a court reporter in the room with a tricorder making a fully independent record of the proceedings (which one would assume would be the version she would notarize as a witness of those proceedings).


As for the use of books, beyond the fact that I recall the dialect not being part of the universal translator's database, I would think that it is self evident that in some cases having a printed book is far better than a computer file. I have PDF versions of many of my books, but I would rather have the paper version in front of me rather than the on screen version when in a rushed search for information. The main place where non-printed material works best for me is when I'm away from home... in which case the many gigabytes of PDF books I have on my laptop are way better than attempting to carry around hundreds of pounds of books.

But in the end, I can't thumb through PDFs like I can a printed document to discover what I might not have known was there to begin with. Computer searches are sadly limited to looking for things you either know or believe are present in a document, but they do nothing to help reveal what you might not have known was there.


And as for the Nixon reference, I have to wonder if you guys don't get out enough. Time and again I've seen what is basically a running joke of a person of one culture assimilating a anecdote which is clearly of another culture. Spock knew this wasn't a Vulcan saying, but the humor of it wouldn't have been lost on Kirk... nor the logic of using such humor to defuse Kirk's anger at being pulled into the situation against his will.

It is truly sad when a great line like that is lost on those who apply a far too literal reference to it. It was an exchange between friends at a point of high tension and was an attempt to lighten Kirk's mood a little... attempting to draw more links there than that is not only quite odd, but also means that subtleties character interactions are wasted on this audience as well.

This reminds me of the scene in 2001 where Heywood Floyd steps out of the phone booth, turns the opposite direction from the Howard Johnson's he was to meet with Miller, and walks over to the Russian scientist. Most of the people I know thought this was just some simple exchange, but is was complete orchestrated by Floyd to help plant the seeds of the cover story. The subtleties of character interactions like that are what make movies worth seeing... everything else is back drop.

Hey, I'm a techno-Trekkie to the extreme, but I am able to put story first when watching a production and all the technical stuff a distant second. While I didn't care for TFF's technical presence on screen, it was the embarrassing charactitures of the crew in that story that I found insulting.

I have never looked upon the Nixon comment as Spock using humor to diffuse the situation. The next time I watch, I'll keep that in mind.

The line is not lost on me. I get the line. Everytime I hear it, it just sounds silly to me. If Spock says, "There's an old saying, 'Only Nixon can go to China'" I'd be fine with it. Leave the "Vulcan" out of it. It would still underscore the importance of sending Kirk on this mission.

In David Alexander's biography of Gene Roddenberry, he shares Gene's concerns about TUC. He has a quote from Ernie Over, an associate of Gene's that sat in on some meetings with GR, Meyer and Nimoy. Over states, "There were a few things that ultimately stayed in. Gene objected to the reference of the Klingons (sic) saying, 'As the Americans would say, 'Only Nixon would go to China!' Gene thought that was the most ridiculous thing he's ever heard."

With respect to the books, I'd like to thing that if time is an issue (and it was in the scene) that the crew would want to access some basic Klingon phrases pretty quickly. I would hope the Enterprise memory banks would have some of them in there. I would assume that an entire library's worth of books are stored in that computer core. Why is the bridge crew flipping through antique books? I'm not talking about the UT (which they said they couldn't use), why doesn't the computer have any Klingon words in it?
I always assumed that Khan knew of an old Klingon proverb by reading it from the Enterprise memory tapes. Granted, it's never been shown on screen that that is the case. If it were, wouldn't it be safe to assume that the Federation and Starfleet would provide their crews with some basic training on language of their adversaries? What were left with is humor at the expense of characters we had grown to love over the past 25 years.

 

[Kryton]

While I didn't care for TFF's technical presence on screen, it was the embarrassing charactitures of the crew in that story that I found insulting.

Of TFF??? That was the one movie to get them all right. They were utterly unrecognizable in TUC.

Yeah, that 78th deck thing was dead-on "utterly unrecognizeable" as anything but absolutely correct! Unless you're referring to the cast characterizations as total racists and assholes...plus utterly stupid morons in TUC...I could see that, compared to the characterizations in TFF.

As far as more "technical crap", gimme a break! Sulu's jump into the shuttle bay? How about that whole "no one's ever been to the center of the galaxy thing", even though TAS did it already. Don't consider that canon like most? Then how about when TNG did it again with Barkley?

Oh, what JOKES on the fans V and VI were. After that? It was just fan abuse.

 

[trevanian]

While I didn't care for TFF's technical presence on screen, it was the embarrassing charactitures of the crew in that story that I found insulting.

Of TFF??? That was the one movie to get them all right. They were utterly unrecognizable in TUC.

Yeah, that 78th deck thing was dead-on "utterly unrecognizeable" as anything but absolutely correct! .

Maybe I should point out that the deck 78 thing has NOTHING to do with characterization or plotting. So why are you bringing it up when he is (correctly) describing how TFF worked? Bring up why you think the characters don't work there if you have to, but don't bring that deck 78 crap up unless you are doing a production design critique. It's like deciding TVH sucks because the matte shot of Scotty standing in midair over the invisible BOP is so horrible-looking (I have plenty of BETTER reasons to bitch about TVH than that, but I think that is a comparable example of bitching about a non-issue.)

 

[Shaw]

I can only assume that the court reporter critique has to be based on an unfamiliarity with TOS. After all, during Spock's trial in The Menagerie there was a court reporter in the room with a tricorder making a fully independent record of the proceedings (which one would assume would be the version she would notarize as a witness of those proceedings).

That was on a starbase. Personnel (such as the hearing panel) had been shipped in for the trial. Obviously, if the were sending JAG officers like the prosecutor, they were sending a stenographer too.
The idea that an active duty starship has someone with the duty title "Court Reporter" is laughable.

I think that this reply by you stands as complete vindication of what you quoted me saying.

I can't thank you enough for posting that.

While I didn't care for TFF's technical presence on screen, it was the embarrassing charactitures of the crew in that story that I found insulting.

Of TFF??? That was the one movie to get them all right. They were utterly unrecognizable in TUC.

Well, lets look at just one of the cast, Mr. Scott... The only time in TOS that Mr. Scott acted like he did in TFF was when he was intoxicated. Otherwise he was a commanding presence who was quite sure of himself. In TFF he could hardly figure out what was going on around him and seemed to be displaying characteristics of someone with advance senility.

But I don't expect you to know this about Scott as, well, it doesn't seem like you know TOS all that well.

Might I suggest that you watch some of TOS (they are online for free over at CBS), specially The Menagerie, get a feel for the original crew, then go back and watch TFF. Even though I doubt you'll admit to it in the heat of an argument, maybe you'll realize some day that all the characters were written as satirical versions of themselves in TFF.

 

[A beaker full of death]

I can only assume that the court reporter critique has to be based on an unfamiliarity with TOS. After all, during Spock's trial in The Menagerie there was a court reporter in the room with a tricorder making a fully independent record of the proceedings (which one would assume would be the version she would notarize as a witness of those proceedings).

That was on a starbase. Personnel (such as the hearing panel) had been shipped in for the trial. Obviously, if the were sending JAG officers like the prosecutor, they were sending a stenographer too.
The idea that an active duty starship has someone with the duty title "Court Reporter" is laughable.

I think that this reply by you stands as complete vindication of what you quoted me saying.

I can't thank you enough for posting that.

uh... ok... are we having a little trouble with the English language today?

But I don't expect you to know this about Scott as, well, it doesn't seem like you know TOS all that well.

Is that an attempt at humor? Clearly it is you who needs to pay more attention.

In TFF he could hardly figure out what was going on around him and seemed to be displaying characteristics of someone with advance senility.

Might want to go back and watch the movie again, sparky.

Might I suggest that you watch some of TOS (they are online for free over at CBS), specially The Menagerie, get a feel for the original crew, then go back and watch TFF.

Right... because Scotty had such a big role in the Menagerie.

Even though I doubt you'll admit to it in the heat of an argument,

Who is arguing? You're simply wrong. And your characterizations of me are way off. Since you've decided to get personal for some reason, you might want to get it right. Again, you clearly haven't been paying attention.

maybe you'll realize some day that all the characters were written as satirical versions of themselves in TFF.

No. They weren't. Ask the writers. Or consult a dictionary. I see you indeed are having trouble with the language we've all agreed upon.

 

[trevanian]

^Yeah, the way Doohan wheeled Jeff Hunter's standin out of the briefing room speaks volumes about the differences between Scotty in TOS and Scotty in TFF. Oman, that's funny.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Okay, guys...cool it.
Let's keep the disagreements reasonably polite... Thank you.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

I can only assume that the court reporter critique has to be based on an unfamiliarity with TOS. After all, during Spock's trial in The Menagerie there was a court reporter in the room with a tricorder making a fully independent record of the proceedings (which one would assume would be the version she would notarize as a witness of those proceedings).

That was on a starbase.

No, it wasn't. Spock's court martial during The Menagerie was on board the Enterprise after Kirk and "Mendez" caught up with the ship.

 

[A beaker full of death]

No, it wasn't. Spock's court martial during The Menagerie was on board the Enterprise after Kirk and "Mendez" caught up with the ship.

Ah, right you are. I was, of course, thinking of Court Martial. That must be what that fellow was on about.
However, I reject the notion that having a crewman present with a tricorder in Menagerie equates to having someone aboard ship with the title "Court Reporter."

 

[Shaw]

That was on a starbase. Personnel (such as the hearing panel) had been shipped in for the trial. Obviously, if the were sending JAG officers like the prosecutor, they were sending a stenographer too.
The idea that an active duty starship has someone with the duty title "Court Reporter" is laughable.

I think that this reply by you stands as complete vindication of what you quoted me saying.

I can't thank you enough for posting that.

uh... ok... are we having a little trouble with the English language today?

No, I just thought that it was great that when I was suggesting that such a critique would stem from an unfamiliarity with TOS that you would volunteer to support my assertion by demonstrating such an unfamiliarity. I couldn't have asked for a better example. Just note the things you got wrong within the space of about 50 words...

• The Menagerie takes place on the Enterprise locked on course to Talos IV, not on a starbase,
• Obviously you have transposed Spock's trial in The Menagerie with Kirk's trial in Court Martial,
• If I had been talking about Court Martial (which I wasn't), Lt. Shaw was already assigned to Starbase 11 before the trial was set in motion (she was seen before the inquiry in the episode), and
• In The Menagerie there was a woman acting as a court reporter for that trial, in Court Martial there was a man in that role (specifically referred to as the clerk of the court as I recall).

So again, I can't thank you enough for posting that.

^Yeah, the way Doohan wheeled Jeff Hunter's standin out of the briefing room speaks volumes about the differences between Scotty in TOS and Scotty in TFF. Oman, that's funny.

My suggestion to review The Menagerie was based on the fact that beaker seemed to have a hard time telling that episode a part from Court Martial. So it wasn't that that episode was especially a good one for Scott, it was that having at least a basic familiarity with The Menagerie would have shown him why I appreciated his post so much.

Please remember that I didn't trick him into making his post, it was a completely voluntary action on his part. If he is upset, it has little to do with me or my actions as there was nothing I could have done to single him out to make such a helpful reply. And I can understand why he felt the need to attack me personally, it was an attempt to save face after such an obvious set of mistakes (though I doubt his reply helped anything).

 

[ancient]

There is nothing wrong with the court reporter line. Obviously this reporter would be an engineer or yeoman or file keeper most of the time. There's no reason to assume they'd be sitting around all the time waiting for an on-board trial or something. It's just someone whose duties INCLUDED court reporting.

Well, lets look at just one of the cast, Mr. Scott... The only time in TOS that Mr. Scott acted like he did in TFF was when he was intoxicated. Otherwise he was a commanding presence who was quite sure of himself. In TFF he could hardly figure out what was going on around him and seemed to be displaying characteristics of someone with advance senility.

Uh, actually, aside from hitting his head in a cramped corridor, Scotty displays quite an agressive and loyal persona in TFF. He busts Kirk & Co. from the brig, fixes the transporter, and spends the whole time holding a half-built ship together.

 

[Oso Blanco]

There is nothing wrong with the court reporter line. Obviously this reporter would be an engineer or yeoman or file keeper most of the time. There's no reason to assume they'd be sitting around all the time waiting for an on-board trial or something. It's just someone whose duties INCLUDED court reporting.

What was clearly wrong was that they mentioned the names of the two crewmen that were going to stand trial over the intercom! It would have been completely sufficient to call for the court reporter, why did they have to tell him/her what he/she had to do?

Of course, so that Valeris could get caught. But shouldn't she have gotten suspicious just BECAUSE of the the unusual way the announcement was made? I wouldn't have gone into that trap, and I'm not even a Vulcan!

 

[Jon1701]

The Bridge scene between Valeris and Spock is a fantastic scene. Brilliant acting all round.

Jesus, the fucking fate of the federation is at state. There's no time for pussy footing around here. They need that information. Lives are at stake for crying out loud.

No-one is happy with the outcome, the sense of horror is there to see on the faces of everyone.

Did Spock want to do it? No.
Did he have to do it? Yes.
Should it have been done in private? Perhaps.

My only problem with that scene now is the shitty special edition edit with the cutaways of Cartwright, Chang and the Romulan Ambassador hammered into your brain

 

[chancellorjake]

My only problem with that scene now is the shitty special edition edit with the cutaways of Cartwright, Chang and the Romulan Ambassador hammered into your brain

Yes, exactly. There was no need for that addition. It's not like we didn't know who she was talking about. Plus, they cut off the dialogue for the Romulan Ambassador's name. On the home video edition, Valeris calls him Romulan Ambassador Nanclus. However, on the SE DVD edition she just calls him the Romulan Ambassador.

 

[Oso Blanco]

Plus, they cut off the dialogue for the Romulan Ambassador's name. On the home video edition, Valeris calls him Romulan Ambassador Nanclus. However, on the SE DVD edition she just calls him the Romulan Ambassador.

I don't want to start beating the same dead horse again, but she never mentioned the name of the Romulan Ambassador in that scene. She actually says "the Romulan Ambassador, and others". Many people misunderstood that line as "the Romulan Ambassador Nanclus", but that's not what she said.

 

[A beaker full of death]

The Bridge scene between Valeris and Spock is a fantastic scene. Brilliant acting all round.

Yes, fine acting. That's irrelevent. It was character assasination of the worst order.

Jesus, the fucking fate of the federation is at state. There's no time for pussy footing around here. They need that information. Lives are at stake for crying out loud.

The fate of the Federation is always at stake. But this was the first time they betrayed who they are to save it - or rather, to save a twisted, corrupt version of it.
You must be a big fan of the Patriot Act.

 

[ancient]

I never knew that I should hate so many things until I came onto the internet and realized that you should always nitpick everything and never just fucking sit back and watch it, then do something else.

Oh well, that's life. So many complaints, so little time.