Why did the TOS films never bring back Carol Marcus?

[David cgc]

Maybe what Picard experience was Kirk in a fake reality, too. Reasoning: Kirk is still wearing a Starfleet-like under-uniform outfit, suggesting he never really left it and its always in hte back of his mind, and that his mind knew things were not right so he created a fake reality for him to always keep him off kilter and hopefully one day wake up to where he was.

As with Picard and Guinan, those are the clothes he was wearing when he went in. Yes, the implication is that he wears the vest under the jacket, each with its own badge (you can see the outer jacket, still with its delta shield, draped over a nearby tree trunk while Kirk is chopping wood). They did the same thing with Sisko in DS9.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Which he could have changed. It's not like you wear the same thing forever when you go can anywhere and do anthing in the Nexus, except change cloths. Heck, Kirk could have been naked. I don't think audiences were ready for the Naked Shat, though. The full Shat monty.

 

[Cap'n Claus]

Obviously, or there'd be a lot fewer Star Trek fans.

That was implied but I'm glad someone else took it there

 

[JonnyQuest037]

If nothing else, the novelization of TUC's invoking Carol being critically wounded in an attack by the Klingons as a way of explaining Kirk's increased hostility toward them at the beginning of that film could have been a nice callback.

In the prologue for the Star Trek VI novelization---Jim is at Carol's bedside after she's seriously injured during a Klingon attack on a colony she was working it. I think it is in there to add dimension to Kirk's headspace in the movie...not just anger over the loss of David, but Carol is laying near dead and he's called to deal with this because--- Spock volunteered.

The novelization is fantastic (all of them are) really.

Personally, I hated that. Largely because I don't think Kirk needed a reason for "increased hostility" towards the Klingons in STVI. He'd been enemies with them for 30-40 years and they were responsible for the death of his son and the destruction of his ship. That's plenty.

Hell, "Errand of Mercy" already gives plenty of reason for Kirk to hate the Klingons:

KIRK: Gentlemen, I have seen what the Klingons do to planets like yours. They are organized into vast slave labor camps. No freedoms whatsoever. Your goods will be confiscated. Hostages taken and killed, your leaders confined. You'd be far better off on a penal planet. Infinitely better off.

I was extremely disappointed by what J. M. Dillard did with the STVI novelization. It was pretty obvious she didn't like the screenplay much and spent half of the book trying to plug what she saw as its flaws, but IMO, she just took the teeth out of the whole thing. (Oh, don't worry! Kirk isn't really as prejudiced as this movie makes it seem! Oh, don't worry! Spock actually asked Valeris for permission during that forcible mind meld! Hey, here's a less funny tag on McCoy's "Bet you wish you'd stood in bed" line! ) Nicholas Meyer and Denny Martin Flinn actually took some chances with the TOS characters and had them do some surprising unexpected things in their last movie. Dillard seemed more preoccupied with sanding off all the edges than actually adapting the movie's story.

 

[DonIago]

TBF, many people on this board have criticized Kirk's antagonism toward the Klingons and the mind meld that occur during TUC, so I can't really blame Dillard for trying to take steps to ameliorate that.

Personally, I kind of lean toward agreeing with you, though I would have liked to see Carol in the book if she'd been a character rather than a McGuffin.

 

[Therin of Andor]

There was a "Starlog" interview with Harve Bennett, where Carol's non-participation in ST III was discussed. Paraphrasing: The script was all about balance. Spock was dead. A big deal. For Kirk to get Spock back, nature's balance meant that he had to lose his own son, and also the Enterprise.

David Marcus was shown to have secretly added the protomatter to the equation for the Genesis Effect to make it work. As project leader, Carol had to have known he did it. David's punishment for cheating meant that, he had to die. If Carol was in ST III, then she would be fated to die, too. Bibi Besch had contacted Harve Bennett to ask why she wasn't in ST III and this was what he told her.

She did get to voice a Star Trek audiobook: "Faces of Fire".

If David was always meant to be killed, then his presence in TSFS explains itself.

Saavik was the "next generation" of Starfleet, as clearly sold in TWOK, and being under the direct guidance of Spock made her a key figure, so her being on the Grissom and building a relationship with David was a natural course for the character.

When they didn't know if Nimoy was returning or not, the plan was to groom Saavik and David to be the young leads of a series of telemovies, with as many of the remaining TOS cast who wanted to keep working as possible. A small exploratory vessel, with a reversal of TOS's two leads: Kirk's son, the science officer, and Spock's daughter analog, the one in command.

As soon as Nimoy asked to direct ST III, all other plans were abandoned. ST III was to be a movie, and Spock would be back, somehow.

 

[DonIago]

I get the poetry of it, but allowing that to interfere with realism, while it works sometimes, doesn't work for me in this case. For one thing, I don't think Carol needs to have known (though I grant it might make her look bad if she didn't know). For another thing, it's silly to say that if Carol appears in the film and does know, then she must die. One would think losing her son would be more than sufficient "punishment".

 

[Kor]

In-universe, I thought it was odd that Kirk was suddenly the face and narrator on the Genesis informational video. It's almost as if Carol had never existed.

Kor

 

[DonIago]

I think it could have worked the way it's initially set-up, as Kirk sending a report on the events that occurred with a brief recap of what Genesis is...but having him repeat what Carol originally said almost verbatim felt really unnatural.

 

[ananta]

I recall Bibi wanted to return and was quite upset that she was told her services were not required. I still think the complete erasure of her character was unfortunate, and they could at least have let her continue to narrate the Genesis Project proposal. Sure, they’d have had to send a little residual her way but she earned it.

I liked the chemistry between Carol and Kirk and their complex relationship. There was more to mine there, but obviously there was probably enough else going on in III and IV. I do wish we’d seen her again sometime, but on the other hand, nothing they’d have been given subsequently would have topped her material on TWOK. Maybe the fact her character was limited to that singular classic actually makes it more special in a way? It was sharp diminishing returns for Saavik, and David was only brought back to make Kirk suffer. Sometimes less is more and more isn’t necessarily better. I think that would have been the case here.

 

[DonIago]

I'm trying to imagine TSFS working as well as it does (YMMV) if neither David nor Carol had returned. Given how much of the events of the film involves a world that they enabled the creation of, to have neither of them there to reflect upon it would have felt really awkward, and given a lot of credence to David's concerns in TWOK that Starfleet was a military force that would just seize control of the whole project. Saavik also needed someone with her on the Genesis Planet, and a new character wouldn't have lent nearly the gravitas to it that was provided by having David there.

"Lieutenant, I've been analyzing the planet's instabilities, and my readings indicate that protomatter was used in the Genesis matrix."
"So, the Doctors Marcus used a substance denounced by any ethical scientist..."

 

[FelizNavidad_Qapla]

If David was always meant to be killed, then his presence in TSFS explains itself.

Saavik was the "next generation" of Starfleet, as clearly sold in TWOK, and being under the direct guidance of Spock made her a key figure, so her being on the Grissom and building a relationship with David was a natural course for the character. Her presence in TVH needs no explanation.

Sarek. Are you kidding? He's almost more of an important legacy character than some of the "B"-level TOS 1701 crew. Besides that, in TVH, it made sense for Sarek to travel to Earth to defend the people who made it possible for his son to be restored to life. He was acting like a very understanding, grateful parent.

Well, I’m trying to figure out why she was not included in future films as a recurring character. The rest listed do reappear, even if their role is minuscule i.e. Saavik and Cartwright in TVH.

I’m not asking why say, Chapel, was not used more in the films. She was not given much to do to begin with. And was not a central character in the trilogy, or a sequel film.

It's not unreasonable to wonder why Carol too was not at Starfleet Headquarters in TVH while they were dealing with the Whale probe, or when the Klingon ambassador was in the Federation Council chambers. Wasn't she held accountable for David adding protomatter into the Genesis Matrix, since she's the project lead?

Cartwright? You'd have to read drafts of TUC to see if there was some sub-plot where Starfleet brass were always going to be moles for those who backed the continuation of a military stand in Starfleet, etc.

Cartwright in TVH was originally going to be Admiral Morrow from TSFS. While it’s interesting to muse if TUC would have been any different if Morrow was one of the conspirators, I’m not sure if it works without Saavik. That changes the TOS movies to the crew being in the thick of a conspiracy at the heart of Starfleet. Though perhaps that would also change or reveal the true purpose of the Genesis device and the USS Excelsior being fitted with transwarp – a plot against the Klingon that cannot be acted on if there’s peace.

Regarding Carol, are you suggesting she should have been on the Grissom essentially performing David's Genesis planet studies?

When the producers could not be bothered to reuse a scene Bibi Besch already filmed in TWOK explaining the Genesis project, questions are justified.

Saavik would have been better served by putting her in the courtroom scenes.

Saavik could have also been on the Excelsior serving with Sulu and Rand in TUC. And replaced one of the other extras on the bridge, since at least Saavik would have been a known face.

 

[Weyoun 251]

Which he could have changed. It's not like you wear the same thing forever when you go can anywhere and do anthing in the Nexus, except change cloths. Heck, Kirk could have been naked. I don't think audiences were ready for the Naked Shat, though. The full Shat monty.

Get your shat out lad

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Honestly, while I would very much like to have seen Carol Marcus return in some later prime universe film (not a fan of the Abramsverse version of the character), it doesn't upset me nearly as much as the absence of Cindy Morgan as Lora Baines (and her cyberspace alter-ego Yori) in Tron: Legacy did. (Then again, I found an awful lot to actively dislike about Tron:Legacy. Most notably how the look and feel of cyberspace scenes was at the bottom of "uncanny chasm," and the idea of not commissioning Wendy Carlos to score the thing.)

But the Prime Universe Dr. Marcus does appear in a number of novels. So there's that. Even if it didn't get Bibi any work. (Good Lord, she only lived to be 54?!?)

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Good Lord, she only lived to be 54?!?

Breast cancer's a fucking bitch. I've lost two friends to it, one at 54, one at 53 (this one two months ago), and I know several others who have had it.

 

[publiusr]

Each movie is its own reality.

In ST II, there was no Excelsior…although there would have had to be in ST III.

I think Carol went back to Earth, and learned about David’s death from Kirk himself.

I see her losing her zeal—-them becoming like Mrs. Kintner from Jaws.

Four months after the death of my father—my mother passed away…physically.

She really ceased to exist the moment my father passed.

Same with Carol, I imagine.

 

[Therin of Andor]

it's silly to say that if Carol appears in the film and does know, then she must die. One would think losing her son would be more than sufficient "punishment".

It was Harve's argument about the balance of the scales when writing any drama.

But the Prime Universe Dr. Marcus does appear in a number of novels. So there's that. Even if it didn't get Bibi any work.

She narrates the ST audio book, "Faces of Fire".

When the producers could not be bothered to reuse a scene Bibi Besch already filmed in TWOK explaining the Genesis project, questions are justified.

That was due to budget. To use Bibi's narration would mean paying her. Shatner saying the same words did not add to the acting bill.

 

[DonIago]

I get the why of it, I just disagree with the premise.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

To use Bibi's narration would mean paying her. Shatner saying the same words did not add to the acting bill.

The film had a 16 million dollar budget. They couldn't find 10-15k to pay Besch for recycled footage?

I mean, I get it. Paramount wanted these movies done on the cheap.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Each movie is its own reality.

In ST II, there was no Excelsior…although there would have had to be in ST III.

No, there was an Excelsior. Deleted scene, Kirk mentions that "by the end of the month" Sulu will have command of the Excelsior:

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You can probably find some video with video and audio, instead of just the audio portion (probably will look like crap though).