Unpopular TUC View

[balls]

No it's not lazy storytelling....

Even a really smart guy who reprogramed the Kobayashi simulation might prop open a door while carrying in his luggage. I've propped open door that shut themselves by droping one bag there while carrying in others.

He would never have expected a member his crew to to eavesdrop as Valeris did, because Starfleet folks in the 23rd century were generally more decent than that.
The whole point of the movie is that when it came to peace with the klingons, the crew wasn't as 'evolved' as we (and they) would have thought.

First someone complains, "why would the door be open" not noticing that it was propped and then when someone tells them it WAS propped they find another excuse why the scene stinks.
Fine, it stinks if you want to say so.
Hopefully, your screenplays won't be filled with 'lazy storytelling' and if they aren't, hopefully time/schedule or other considerations won't occur that make it neccessary to use an expediency like a propped door and a eavesdropper because that could never happen in real life.

Guardian, I always thought that this board offered a place for fans to discuss Trek is an open and mature manner. I don't think the "Hopefully, your screenplays won't be filled with 'lazy storytelling'..." comment was really necessary. I think it dimishes some of the valid points that you brought to the discussion. As you can see with my rank, I've only posted approximately 250 comments over the past 7 years. So, clearly, writing is not one of my talents

I don't recall saying the scene stinks. I was only trying to understand why the door would be open. All I'm looking for is for a discussion about it. If it's the screenwriter's only purpose to prop the door open so Valeris can hear what Kirk says, I think it's weak.
We can agree to disagree on this subject. However, the point is we have an opportunity to discuss it.

 

[guardian]

Sorry I didn't mean to imply you don't have a right to an opinion.

I think by using the phrase 'lazy storytelling' implies a little condescention. (sp?)
I mean showing her, let's say, bugging his room (or revealing she had done so) and then later using the quote against him might have worked better but the other need to film it the way they did was for them to have a scene together before the movie got rolling. There are huge coincidences and stupid coincidences and I think her overhearing him at that point was just a lucky coincidence (from her point of view) and not particularly unreasonable. Perhaps she was shadowing him to get his opinion of the mssion and simply got a lucky bit of info that she could use against him as events unfolded.

There are a lot of little annoyances in TUC, but the movie was rushed and had things studio-imposed on it and still it has 87 out of 92 people on the current poll giving it 3 stars or better---that's pretty damn good!!!

I do think that if they had a group of trekkers sceen the movie and point out little things they could have fixed many with tiny edits and voice-overs etc.

But I think they were just looking for a good entertaining movie not an error-free one.

Peace.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

TUC is a so-so Trek movie at best. Nothing to get excited about.

 

[NiteTrek]

If it's the screenwriter's only purpose to prop the door open so Valeris can hear what Kirk says, I think it's weak.

I agree. Very weak. Besides, you would think there would be some type of "beep-beep" notification to let you know you accidentally propped the door open. Not to mention, the sounds of people in the corridor outside should have been a tip-off.

 

[guardian]

No, not weak..........

He KNEW the doop was propped open. Where does it indicate he had forgotten? Why do you assume this?

He simply wasn't expecting to be spied on by any member of his crew. Perhaps the the room was musty or needed to be aired out or whatever.

He propped the door open for some reason and was dictating his log and didn't expect to be spied on.

To make a big deal about this minor plot detail in order to make the case that the movie is not that good is....weak.

As i pointed out 87 out of 92 people voted this movie as 3 stars or better---that's 95%.

Trying to cut it down over the fact a door was propped open (and not beeping an alert) or that a panel shook and therefore the ship is being shown as flimsy is just silly. It's a movie, it's not perfect but it's very good Trek entertanment and I am sorry this stuff bothers so many (apparently five ) people.

Are these the same folks that say the truly embarrassing FX from TFF aren't that big a deal?

Minor plot points in a well made, well written well acted movie are important, but glaring, teriible,amateur grade FX that are integral to a sci-fi movie are no problem?

I realize nobody here made that point, but I never understand how some people look at the good movies and try to break them down by nitpicking them to death and then other folks are apologists for movies that are bad im many multiple areas, but have a few redeeming scenes or moments.

 

[Maurice]

I mean didn't they watch the dailies and realize that it's so utterly dumb to have Valeris slide down a pole... and dumber still to see that she shook the cheapo vinyl set they were on? I mean I know the film had a tight budget, but even those type of budgets are enough to ensure a decently made film is produced.

I addressed this in another thread. Shaking set walls are all over Hollywood films. Check out the room service cart that hits the wall after the Slimer ghost in Ghostsbusters...the whole wall jerks on impact. It's all over the place. You can't always reshoot, so you live with it. If you're going to junk that in films, lots and lots of movies are gonna lose shots.

 

[A beaker full of death]

People conviently forget that in Elaan of Troyus Kirk indicates that he wants Spock to use the meld on Kryton against his will.

Shatner makes it very clear that Kirk is bluffing.

Aside from totally miswriting the characters, the film's editing is choppy as hell. The dinner scene and the staff briefing are terrible.

 

[Timo]

What Spock did to Valeris, forcing himself into her mind without her consent, is just as much a brutal act of violation as if he'd raped her physically. That is what people object to about the scene.

Perhaps. But the original poster indicated that Spock should have done it in private, which I interpreted as meaning that he felt if to be primarily sexual in nature, due to the "mind rape" semantics. After all, what conceivable reason would there be for doing it in private if not for the widespread taboo against public sex? How would a closed door make it one bit more acceptable?

And as said, Starfleet doesn't seem to have strict anti-torture rules, nor do Vulcans really have as high ethics about using mind melds for obtaining information as people sometimes think. I gather the unusual and troubling thing about this is that Valeris is a fellow Vulcan...

...the film's editing is choppy as hell. The dinner scene and the staff briefing are terrible.

I've never gotten the argument about a choppy dinner scene. I know it was recut a zillion times, but it's supposed to be an awkward situation, with the attention whiplashing from one faux pas to another across the table, punctuated by embarrassing pauses.

And this is the first time I hear misgivings about the briefing scene. I always liked the idea of galactic armageddon being discussed during an early morning briefing, after which everybody blinks a lot and zombie-walks for the coffee fabricator, thinking "was that a dream?"...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Therin of Andor]

re Operation Retrieve: it was in the original video I got back in the 90s...it never made sence to me that they discussed it with the Romulans, think it either shows a massive reduction in hostilities between the two since TOS or the script was just messed up when it came to this point

Have you considered: Sarek had led a peace treaty with the Romulans after ST V?

The Romulan ambassador is wearing a yellow sash at the Khitomer talks, just like Sarek and all the other Vulcans! Independent attendees wore green, UFP races (except Vulcans) wore blue, and Klingons wore red.

 

[RAMA]

I've just finished my annual review of Trek movies and I seem to be having a hard time enjoying TUC. I think most of my problems stem from the writing. I acknowledge the idea of the cold war analogy as being a great idea. I think the scenes with the big 3 are strong. However, in addition to the obvious nits: "Right standard rudder"; phasers in the galley; "only Nixon can go to China", I have some issues with story points that seem to be there for no other reason than to further the story. For example: Kirk leaving his cabin door open while putting his stuff away and recording his (damning) personal log. I thought the doors on the Enterprise would have stayed closed after he entered the cabin. It seems like the only reason it stayed open was for Valeris to be able to hear and record the log. (Maybe later on in the movie it could have been determined that whoever modified the torpedo bank log could have also hacked into Kirk's personal log).
The scene with crewman Dax. Okay, nobody on board knows anything about this guy and his race? So, we find the gravity boots and we're all just going to wait for him in his cabin to interrogate him? Why not do a quick personnel check on the guy and send security to get him. The scene seems a bit forced and a little bit hokey.
The books. My God, the books. Isn't it a bit insulting to us and the characters that the wonderful crew of the Enterprise can't come up with a few lines of Klingon? Why do we have books? Don't we have computer files on Klingon? I'm not talking about the Universal Translator (which they do mention), but books? I've always assumed that Khan knew of "old Klingon proverbs" from his extensive review of memory tapes in "Space Seed." Heck, Marc Okrand's Klingon dictionary is a small paperback. Don't you think that Starfleet would spend some time at the academy training it's cadets on a few simple Klingon words. If Klingon's can memorize Shakespeare, why can our hero's know enough to get by? Again, a forced scene.

Finding the bodies of Samno and Burke right in the corridor in which the main characters are walking seems a bit too convenient. And, the follow up announcement on the loudspeaker for the court reporter (do starships have court reporters? I thought they just used the computer) to go to sickbay and take statements from Samno and Burke is such a blatant trap, I'm suprised that Valeris fell for it. I mean, this consipracy included one of the top guys at Starfleet, top guys of the Klingon Empire and the Romulans. If Valeris fell for that ruse, they chose the wrong person to deal with their dirty work.

In the Director's Version:
Operation retrieve. I have no problem with this other than why would we be sharing this plan with the Romulans?

Scotty, "I bet that Klingon bitch did it." It seems so out of character for Scotty or anyone in the Trek universe to use that line. I cringe everytime I hear it.

Spock's mind rape of Valeris. It's bad enough that he forces himself on her, but to do it on the bridge in front of everyone else seems wrong.

As much as I think that TFF was an abortion, I'm starting to like it a little bit more that TUC. I think I feel that way because I expected more from Meyer and Nimoy. Meyer saved the franchise with TWOK. His part in the screenplay for TVH was excellent. Nimoy did a great job with TSFS and TVH and the idea for this one was a good one. I don't know. Maybe after 17 years and repeated viewings it's easy to pick it apart. I guess I just can't buy into this being one of the great TOS movies.

Amongst other probs I have with the movie, some of the small things you mention here are reasons why I didn't want Nick Meyer ever writing or directing a Star Trek movie again.

RAMA

 

[Doug Otte]

...the film's editing is choppy as hell. The dinner scene and the staff briefing are terrible.

I've never gotten the argument about a choppy dinner scene. I know it was recut a zillion times, but it's supposed to be an awkward situation, with the attention whiplashing from one faux pas to another across the table, punctuated by embarrassing pauses.

And this is the first time I hear misgivings about the briefing scene. I always liked the idea of galactic armageddon being discussed during an early morning briefing, after which everybody blinks a lot and zombie-walks for the coffee fabricator, thinking "was that a dream?"...

Timo Saloniemi

Agreed and agreed. I thought they were both very well done scenes. I was very surprised to read that some think otherwise.

BTW, I agree about some of the OPs nitpicks, but overall, it's still one of my favorite Trek movies.

Doug

 

[ancient]

It wasn't the best, and the crew was getting rather old, but it was overall pretty good. Not a masterpeice, and something of a step backwards, but not terrible.

About the mind-rape thing. While it is obviously a bit on the iffy side, Spock did force a meld in the season 1 with a guard. It's possible I guess to draw information from someone without actually entering their mind. Perhaps Spock used a less invasive form of mind-meld than the total joining.

It may be painful, but when you come down to it modern-day interrogation methods aren't exactly a walk in the park either. How many times (on TV) have we seen a detective rough up a suspect under a spotlight? Interrogations aren't supposed to be pleasant.

You certainly never just ask a suspect for names then shrug and lock them up when they don't cooperate.

 

[guardian]

I checked on the pole-sliding bump thing, and although it isn't 100% clear, it does look rather like a wall of compartments with sliding panel doors. It just doesn't look like a pure solid bulkhead. i'm sure if somebody had bumped what was supposed to be a solid wall and it moved noticably they would have reshot it, but it looks to me like storage compartments with doors.

I still find it amazing that 87 out of 92 people in this forum found the movie to be 3 stars or better, but you wouldn't know it from this thread.

I am very sure it was a rushed production and they could have done better with more time, but I think they did a damn good job with what was in 1991 a fairly low budget for this type of movie.

And as i said, some of the 'funny' stuff was out of the hands of Nick Meyer and forced upon him by the studio. Read the script and take note of the many lame jokes cut from the final battle scene. I'm sure Meyer lobbied hard for those cuts arguing it would ruin the final battle scene--which it would have!!!

 

[Oso Blanco]

The whole movie was one big illogical piece of nonsense. Even TFF made more sense.

 

[NiteTrek]

The whole movie was one big illogical piece of nonsense. Even TFF made more sense.

I have to disagree there. While TUC had it's share of problems, I enjoyed it overall. TFF was a waste of time. They overdid the Enterprise's problems - doors only opening halfway, hand held padds popping apart. It just seemed so contrived. Like something out of the roadrunner/coyote cartoons.

Also this:

Kirk - "Aren't there other ships in the area? The Enterprise is a disaster"
Star Fleet - "Other ships, yes, but we need Jim Kirk on this one."

Ok, fine, they why don't you put "Jim Kirk" on another ship? One that isn't falling apart?

I could go on for hours. TFF was the absolute worst of the Trek movies.

 

[balls]

The whole movie was one big illogical piece of nonsense. Even TFF made more sense.

I have to disagree there. While TUC had it's share of problems, I enjoyed it overall. TFF was a waste of time. They overdid the Enterprise's problems - doors only opening halfway, hand held padds popping apart. It just seemed so contrived. Like something out of the roadrunner/coyote cartoons.

Also this:

Kirk - "Aren't there other ships in the area? The Enterprise is a disaster"
Star Fleet - "Other ships, yes, but we need Jim Kirk on this one."

Ok, fine, they why don't you put "Jim Kirk" on another ship? One that isn't falling apart?

I could go on for hours. TFF was the absolute worst of the Trek movies.

The "...we need Jim Kirk on this one." line is so forced. I'm glad that you mentioned the problem with the padd. I can maybe understand that the ship itself is not up to specs, but the stuff inside? C'mon! Let's not forget the 78 decks!

 

[Warped9]

I've just finished my annual review of Trek movies and I seem to be having a hard time enjoying TUC. I think most of my problems stem from the writing. I acknowledge the idea of the cold war analogy as being a great idea. I think the scenes with the big 3 are strong. However, in addition to the obvious nits: "Right standard rudder"; phasers in the galley; "only Nixon can go to China", I have some issues with story points that seem to be there for no other reason than to further the story. For example: Kirk leaving his cabin door open while putting his stuff away and recording his (damning) personal log. I thought the doors on the Enterprise would have stayed closed after he entered the cabin. It seems like the only reason it stayed open was for Valeris to be able to hear and record the log. (Maybe later on in the movie it could have been determined that whoever modified the torpedo bank log could have also hacked into Kirk's personal log).
The scene with crewman Dax. Okay, nobody on board knows anything about this guy and his race? So, we find the gravity boots and we're all just going to wait for him in his cabin to interrogate him? Why not do a quick personnel check on the guy and send security to get him. The scene seems a bit forced and a little bit hokey.
The books. My God, the books. Isn't it a bit insulting to us and the characters that the wonderful crew of the Enterprise can't come up with a few lines of Klingon? Why do we have books? Don't we have computer files on Klingon? I'm not talking about the Universal Translator (which they do mention), but books? I've always assumed that Khan knew of "old Klingon proverbs" from his extensive review of memory tapes in "Space Seed." Heck, Marc Okrand's Klingon dictionary is a small paperback. Don't you think that Starfleet would spend some time at the academy training it's cadets on a few simple Klingon words. If Klingon's can memorize Shakespeare, why can our hero's know enough to get by? Again, a forced scene.

Finding the bodies of Samno and Burke right in the corridor in which the main characters are walking seems a bit too convenient. And, the follow up announcement on the loudspeaker for the court reporter (do starships have court reporters? I thought they just used the computer) to go to sickbay and take statements from Samno and Burke is such a blatant trap, I'm suprised that Valeris fell for it. I mean, this consipracy included one of the top guys at Starfleet, top guys of the Klingon Empire and the Romulans. If Valeris fell for that ruse, they chose the wrong person to deal with their dirty work.

In the Director's Version:
Operation retrieve. I have no problem with this other than why would we be sharing this plan with the Romulans?

Scotty, "I bet that Klingon bitch did it." It seems so out of character for Scotty or anyone in the Trek universe to use that line. I cringe everytime I hear it.

Spock's mind rape of Valeris. It's bad enough that he forces himself on her, but to do it on the bridge in front of everyone else seems wrong.

As much as I think that TFF was an abortion, I'm starting to like it a little bit more that TUC. I think I feel that way because I expected more from Meyer and Nimoy. Meyer saved the franchise with TWOK. His part in the screenplay for TVH was excellent. Nimoy did a great job with TSFS and TVH and the idea for this one was a good one. I don't know. Maybe after 17 years and repeated viewings it's easy to pick it apart. I guess I just can't buy into this being one of the great TOS movies.

You've just underlined many of the reasons I think this movie fell flat for me after the initial viewing. It's really not well thought out. Once you get past the odd character moment and okay pacing it's dumb as a brick.

 

[MadBaggins]

"We need breathing room."
"Earth, Hilter, 1938."

I checked and Hitler NEVER said that!

 

[NiteTrek]

"We need breathing room."
"Earth, Hilter, 1938."

I checked and Hitler NEVER said that!

How can you be so sure? Is every word he ever spoke written down somewhere? Do you think Hitler ever said "Damn, my ass itches?" How can you confirm or deny that?

Besides, Kirk was trying to make a point, it doesn't matter if Hitler said it or not.

 

[A beaker full of death]

"We need breathing room."
"Earth, Hilter, 1938."

I checked and Hitler NEVER said that!

"Breathing room" is a rough translation. What Hitler famously said (and wrote in Mein Kampf) was "lebensraum," or "room to live."