Unpopular TUC View

[shatastrophic]

I saw TUC opening night, I have it on original VHS, I have it on DVD. I don't have the Directors edition. Coloniel West's briefing scene operation retrieve was/is in all versions. As was the mask being taken off at the end. So i am confused.

Anyhow I liked it and it was a better final movie for the original crew than TFF. I gave it 4 stars.

 

[Timo]

And of course it would be perfectly valid for Kirk to say that Hitler on Earth in 1938 needed breathing room, even if the thing isn't a direct quote.

(Indeed, real people seldom do accurate quotes, and in this case Kirk wasn't quoting anybody anyway but merely reflecting on the Klingon words.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Therin of Andor]

I saw TUC opening night... Coloniel West's briefing scene operation retrieve was/is in all versions. As was the mask being taken off at the end.

Unless you happened to be in a cinema that showed a rare alternate print instead of the correct one, the scenes were extended (for the first you mention) and added (for the second scene) for the VHS release and all subsequent versions.

A friend of mine saw a version of ST III (in Perth, Australia) on premiere night that had the little Vulcan girl saying, "Live long and prosper" to Spock's inert body, but it's never been in any print I saw. She was shocked when it seemed to be "cut" from the Sydney prints when she got home from vacation.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

When TUC first premiered, I was eight years old and thus couldn't go with my big sister to the cinema and watch it. I was devastated!

Then, when it came out on VHS my parents got it for me and I loved it. I think I was ten years old, or nine? Dunno, it took movies longer to come out then.

In any case, I usually do see plot holes and badly done scenes, but all those nitpicks listed here... honestly, I either didn't notice them, or I just explained them away.

Before I registered at this forum, I just thought this movie (and others, as well as several of the torn-apart episodes) was perfect.

Ignorance is bliss, people.

 

[trevanian]

Before I registered at this forum, I just thought this movie (and others, as well as several of the torn-apart episodes) was perfect.

Ignorance is bliss, people.

To each his/her own. For me, bliss is seeing something done so well that I can't see significant flaws in spite of my mandatory inspection for detail. As a result, I get more out of the rare movies that meet my standards, and that more than offsets my complaints over the many movies that do not meet my standards.

Try to imagine any Trek movie working without a dramatic underscore ... but then watch CHINA SYNDROME, or many of Sidney Lumet's pictures, which do without dramatic score (CHINA has a title song and some hispanic music on a radio, but that is source music, not scoring.) The balls to be able to go without a major crutch like that, that's something to watch for and for me to admire hell out of. You can say that's comparing apples and oranges, but shoot, so is comparing a traditional dramatic score and the electronic sounds in FORBIDDEN PLANET or DARK STAR, which are a ways away from what gets done conventionally in space pics.

Or a movie that has a score and is damn near perfect (IMO), like Fincher's Se7en. There are modest goofs in 2001, but considering the number of things done right there, that's not only excuseable, it's pretty damn admirable (as is just about everything in the picture.)

One of the reasons problems in trek movies get so much play here is because a lot of them are arbitrary and fixable without slowing the story down, and are things a script doctor would have addressed if one were available and had more than 12 days to do the rewrite. Others fit the criteria of 'idiot plotting' and are done to get from here to there in the story, but at the cost of invalidating the tale's credibility (or sometimes, even more stupidly, invalidating the drama, which you'd figure they'd never do in favor of credibility.) Pretty much everything plotwise in SFS from when the Enterprise encounters the BOP till they get off the planet seems like really bad, really stupid, and really wrong story choices, arbitrary as all get out and annoying enough that I usually only watch the first half of the movie (see, I can put up with the dumb mushroom spacedock because while it may offend my scientific sensibilities, it doesn't seriously or grievously harm the story IMO. That doesn't happen till TVH, when the power goes out and the ships get stuck inside.)

Then again, I remember mis-hearing dialog in the films and getting my nose out of joint on account of that (like thinking Kirk told Spock, "I wouldn't have presumed after VGER" instead of "I wouldn't have presumed to debate you," in TWOK.) So the intense focus can backfire too, but in retrospect, I just find that incident to be funny.

When I first saw TUC, I think I caught most every objectionable thing, but the only ones that made me want to hate the movie were ones relating to character. I could blow off the dictionaries and that ilk easily enough (they're not as insignicant as the 78 level sign that everybody knocks about TFF, which I find to be so petty as to not even bother addressing anymore), but what I found to be character assassination of Kirk and Spock was infuriating.

So these are usually qualified rants.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

Klingons knowing Shakespeare and the book translations were all that annoyed me about this movie.

 

[Maurice]

I saw TUC opening night, I have it on original VHS, I have it on DVD. I don't have the Directors edition. Coloniel West's briefing scene operation retrieve was/is in all versions. As was the mask being taken off at the end. So i am confused.

Funny, because I saw it in the theater and I don't recall any of those things. I remember the big deal that was made about those extra bits being added into the video release.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I saw TUC opening night, I have it on original VHS, I have it on DVD. I don't have the Directors edition. Coloniel West's briefing scene operation retrieve was/is in all versions. As was the mask being taken off at the end. So i am confused.

Nope, it wasn't in the original theatrical release. This led to complaints by the canonistas of the day about the Klingon assassin having red blood like humans.

This is like the famous "'A New Hope' was part of the 'Star Wars' title in May of 1977; I remember seeing it."

 

[RAMA]

I don't see why people should get a hard-on about this. The so-called "mind rape" is an interrogation procedure, not a form of perverse sex. Is Archer playing breath control sex games with that Osaarian when he threatens to throw him out of the airlock?

You're profoundly misinterpreting the meaning of the word "rape." Rape is not a sex act. It is an act of violence which corrupts sex into a means of victimization and subjugation. No one who's ever been raped would define it as something erotic or dismiss it as a game, and it's hideously insensitive to equate it with such a thing.

When people say "mind rape," they DO NOT mean "a mind meld as a sexual act." They mean "an intimate, properly consensual act corrupted into a coercive assault."

In most works of science fiction involving telepaths, including much prose Trek fiction about Vulcans predating TUC and various post-TUC Trek episodes (such as TNG's "Violations"), it is established that a fundamental rule of ethics in any telepathic culture is that a telepath must never enter another person's mind without their consent, just as our culture considers it a fundamental ethical principle that you never impose sexual contact on a person without their consent. Both acts are profoundly intimate, and thus profoundly traumatic and degrading when performed without consent. What Spock did to Valeris, forcing himself into her mind without her consent, is just as much a brutal act of violation as if he'd raped her physically. That is what people object to about the scene. Especially since, in many people's view, the scene was consciously directed to suggest an act of seduction, making it even more overtly a rape scene.

The needs of the many outweigh them needs of the few.

So as an analogy, you'd support physical rape as a means to an end also????

Mary you are truly a scary person...

You also misinterpret the meaning of that quote in the ST movies. It was clear that after it was stated, it was Spock's ability to move beyond this "axiom" and accept that it had exceptions that was a real growth of the character.


RAMA

 

[trevanian]

I don't know what is scarier, me finding myself agreeing with RAMA or the post he was critiquing.

 

[maryh]

In most works of science fiction involving telepaths, including much prose Trek fiction about Vulcans predating TUC and various post-TUC Trek episodes (such as TNG's "Violations"), it is established that a fundamental rule of ethics in any telepathic culture is that a telepath must never enter another person's mind without their consent, just as our culture considers it a fundamental ethical principle that you never impose sexual contact on a person without their consent. Both acts are profoundly intimate, and thus profoundly traumatic and degrading when performed without consent. What Spock did to Valeris, forcing himself into her mind without her consent, is just as much a brutal act of violation as if he'd raped her physically. That is what people object to about the scene. Especially since, in many people's view, the scene was consciously directed to suggest an act of seduction, making it even more overtly a rape scene.

The needs of the many outweigh them needs of the few.

So as an analogy, you'd support physical rape as a means to an end also????

Mary you are truly a scary person...

You also misinterpret the meaning of that quote in the ST movies. It was clear that after it was stated, it was Spock's ability to move beyond this "axiom" and accept that it had exceptions that was a real growth of the character.


RAMA

All this "mind rape" idea is not particularly established as canon to me and certainly wasn't at the time of TUC. We have already pointed this out using examples. Comparing it as an intimate contact that should never be forced seems good we do not know what the hypothetical mind meld entails. It seems like we are making all kinds of moral implications and judgements from fantasy novels. We know nothing of telepathy so how can we know what rules it should follow? Such human arrogance. Just why is "mind reading" for info so much worse than using "truth drug and verifier scan"?

Perhaps you need to use Spock's ability to move beyond the "axiom" concerning rules about forced mind-melds -- and that exceptions may exist -- and then you too like Spock can experience real growth.

As for physical rape verses mental rape -- mental rape is an unknown and undefined to me so I won't judge it. Physical rape occurs as a means to what end? Violence, sexual gratification, terror etc? I do not consider them as a "just cause" for allowing a rape. Reading somebodies mind in an effort to retrieve information which may prevent a galactic war caused by a bunch of high powered traitors -- seems like a "just cause" to me, even if it means making an exception to the unestablished rule. They even allow for exceptions in some of those novels.

Calling me scary is uncalled for and taking things too seriously:
http://trekmovie.com/2008/05/27/trekmoviecom-comments-being-taken-too-seriously/

 

[trevanian]

It doesn't take a huge extrapolative leap to surmise that having your mind forcibly invaded, your secrets revealed (and publicly!) would be a horror and painful.

If the folks making TUC had their heads on straight with respect to trek (as opposed to just making popular entertainment), they'd've realized that Spock being forced to do this by Kirk (and then live with it) would have been a better trek story, one that tried the main characters in an interesting fashion.

I'm not saying they'd ever consider that view (hey, its a 30 mil flick, they have to be as dumb and broad as possible), but my view of Trek makes that the legit approach, assuming you HAVE to have the scene.

Then again, I've always thought TUC goes wrong after the first act ... I'd rather have seen Kronos 1 and Enterprise having to fight their way together to the conference after being attacked, and putting aside their differences along the way. Plus, rather than paying lip service to an ideal, it've been great to see Kirk go out in a blaze of glory saving the Klingons, maybe ramming the refit into a conspirator ship (or even better, wiping out that ugly spacedock, if conspirator folk had taken that over.)

 

[Geoff]

Perhaps you need to use Spock's ability to move beyond the "axiom" concerning rules about forced mind-melds -- and that exceptions may exist -- and then you too like Spock can experience real growth.

I certainly wouldn't characterize Spock's forced meld with Valeris as an example of "growth." More like a profoundly disturbing experience for everyone involved, but which he felt he had no choice but to engage in.

Calling me scary is uncalled for and taking things too seriously:

True, personal insults are unnecessary. I think the problem was that Christopher offered a very reasoned explanation of why a forced meld would be just as traumatic as a rape, and you responed with a rather harsh one-line post suggesting that such a traumatic act might nonetheless be justifiable. The logic behind such a notion is indeed scary to most folks in a civilized society.

 

[balls]

I guess the thing that disturbs me the most is that Spock grabs her arm with some force and pulls her toward him. At one point of the meld she pulls her head back only for Spock to grab the back of her head and pull it towards him. Then, as he goes deeper, she screams out.

I believe several people had indicated that it was an interrogation for information that was needed right now. I get that. It's just that, we're talking about Spock. I always thought of him as the moral compass of the crew. Over the past few months, I watched all 6 seasons of 24 (I didn't watch the original run) on dvd. Maybe in this situation, Spock is the Jack Bauer and he'll do whatever it takes to get the information to save lives, even torture. I guess I'd like to think that where Bauer may have run out of time or options, Spock would always have "possibilities."

I believe Nimoys protrayal of the event shows that it was an "emotional" thing and was difficult for Spock as well. As he delievers, "...she does not know." line you know it was tough on him. But far worse for Valeris.

 

[maryh]

I guess the thing that disturbs me the most is that Spock grabs her arm with some force and pulls her toward him. At one point of the meld she pulls her head back only for Spock to grab the back of her head and pull it towards him. Then, as he goes deeper, she screams out.

I believe several people had indicated that it was an interrogation for information that was needed right now. I get that. It's just that, we're talking about Spock. I always thought of him as the moral compass of the crew. Over the past few months, I watched all 6 seasons of 24 (I didn't watch the original run) on dvd. Maybe in this situation, Spock is the Jack Bauer and he'll do whatever it takes to get the information to save lives, even torture. I guess I'd like to think that where Bauer may have run out of time or options, Spock would always have "possibilities."

I believe Nimoys protrayal of the event shows that it was an "emotional" thing and was difficult for Spock as well. As he delievers, "...she does not know." line you know it was tough on him. But far worse for Valeris.

The only reason forced mind melds are so bad for Vulcans is because they have developed speech in addition to telepathy. Some aliens like Gem from "The Empath" had no vocal chords and for her reading emotions and/or thoughts was natural and her only method of communication. I'm sure Spock, who tries to pretend he has no emotions, wasn't wild about her reading his pity for Kirk, but that is the way Gem's people are. OTOH we have TNG's Troi who is paid to sense others emotions - in a sense an invasion of somebodies feelings or emotional privacy. She has vocal chords so she can communicate without using her sensing abilities yet she uses her invasion ability for the advantage of her crew - yet nobody complains about this.

I think our reaction to the idea of somebody being able to read our mind causes a knee-jerk reaction however, if there really was a planet full of mind readers, it might not be viewed as such. Bodily rape is bad in part because of the harm it causes both physically and psychologically and has other possible consequences. I'm not saying forced melds are good - but, if they had no physical or psychological consequences - they might not be viewed as horribly as bodily rape is.

That said, the situation did require it IMO but it probably should have been done privately. But then a dramatic scene would have been eliminated and the primary requirement of a film - to entertain us, would have been lessened for me.

As far as moral compasses - many ethicists believe that when you violate the rights of someone else you revoke your own rights. If Valeris was indeed violating Kirk & Comany's rights - like framing them for crimes and working dishonestly against peace, does she deserve the rights she is denying others? Our whole society protects itself by methods like incarceration which do violate an individuals rights, but because this person is deemed a danger to society, it is done to protect the rights others. Some feel letting a danger walk free and continue hurting others is the greater evil.

 

[ancient]

I see the forced mind-meld more as a mental interrogation, rather than 'mind rape'. Interrogations are very unpleasent but a necessary part of police/government work. When the suspect in question has information about an assassination-war plot already in progress an interrogation is prefectly justified.

Vulcans have very well structured minds, unlike a human, whose thoughts are a chaotic mix of emotion, logic, and random bullshit. I'm sure Spock could extract information on the plot without invading any other parts of the mind. Now, if he had performed his stunt on an unshielded human mind, it may have had a potentially fatal result.

 

[Timo]

I believe several people had indicated that it was an interrogation for information that was needed right now. I get that. It's just that, we're talking about Spock. I always thought of him as the moral compass of the crew.

Yet Spock is also the logical foundation for the hero triad - the one who advocates attack in "Balace of Terror", the one who thinks murder is the choice of the logically minded if logic indeed so dictates in "Journey to Babel", the one who always takes the deaths of millions in the stride...

...Unless those happen to be Vulcan deaths. But logic would dictate that Spock set aside his racist feelings for this rare once and act as if the threat in question did not get under his skin.

I see the forced mind-meld more as a mental interrogation, rather than 'mind rape'. Interrogations are very unpleasent but a necessary part of police/government work. When the suspect in question has information about an assassination-war plot already in progress an interrogation is prefectly justified.

Yet rape is always a valid interrogation technique, too - very practical in that it leaves little physical evidence in relation to the mental effect achieved. Spock would not, should not, feel constrained by human preconceptions about sexuality if he felt the best way to thwart the horrid plot was to physically rape Valeris, either.

And it still seems that most of the antipathy towards Spock's actions here revolves around the idea that "mind rape" would be a procedure akin to physical rape. The elements are certainly there to enforce the impression. Spock is male, Valeris is female; Spock is old, large and intimidating, Valeris is young and lithe; Spock is in a position of authority, Valeris is subordinate. Spock makes low, grunting noises, Valeris squeals and ultimately screams. The writer, director and actors probably worked from the assumption that this was indeed conceptually and dramatically related to physical rape - even when one doesn't include the in-universe fact that telepathy is closely linked to sexuality in Vulcans.

But I feel such antipathy is misguided. We can loathe Spock for what he did, but we shouldn't loathe him for what he did by using standards different from the ones we use when he, say, points a deadly weapon at Admiral Cartwright, threatening him with a no doubt agonizing death through vaporization unless he cooperates. Spock is no alien to the use of deadly force, infliction of pain, and mental manipulation, and it seems wholly excessive to speak of "character assassination" when he merely practices his usual trade.

Vulcans have very well structured minds, unlike a human, whose thoughts are a chaotic mix of emotion, logic, and random bullshit. I'm sure Spock could extract information on the plot without invading any other parts of the mind. Now, if he had performed his stunt on an unshielded human mind, it may have had a potentially fatal result.

Actually, I'd think a human could have offered no resistance, while Valeris must have put up some, to her own peril. In DS9 "The Maquis", the structured, disciplined mind of Gul Dukat can resist a meld better than the average, chaotic one - and it doesn't seem to be a simple case of all Cardassians being unreadable by Vulcans, or else Sakonna wouldn't even have tried.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[golakers]

Well, the first poster nailed it.

TUC is NOT a very good film. It's full of inconsistencies, poor writing, and lame plot devices.

I loved this film when it was first released in 1991. For years, it ranked in my top 3. However, after repeated viewing it becomes clearer and clearer just how flawed it is.

Now, I can't even watch it. Too bad.

 

[Doug Otte]

As far as moral compasses - many ethicists believe that when you violate the rights of someone else you revoke your own rights. If Valeris was indeed violating Kirk & Comany's rights - like framing them for crimes and working dishonestly against peace, does she deserve the rights she is denying others? Our whole society protects itself by methods like incarceration which do violate an individuals rights, but because this person is deemed a danger to society, it is done to protect the rights others. Some feel letting a danger walk free and continue hurting others is the greater evil.

Very interesting discussion, everyone. Regarding your last paragraph above, Mary, this kind of rationalization seems reasonable on the surface, but it has too often been misused by those in power to run rampant over the rights of suspects. Do I need to mention my own US government's behavior over the past 7 years? Perhaps in the context of TUC, they could be sure of Valeris' guilt and thus justify violating her rights in return, but how often can we be sure? Even if a suspect "confesses," we don't know if he/she was coerced into that confession; or worse yet, confessed due to some mental illness. Even worse, if the suspect doesn't confess, making an assumption prior to conviction and using the excuse of "national security" or "get them before the get us...again" leads us down the slippery slope to fascism and the end to rule of law.

Doug

 

[maryh]

Very interesting discussion, everyone.

Thanks for acknowledging the value of my statements and not just calling me a "scary person".

Regarding your last paragraph above, Mary, this kind of rationalization seems reasonable on the surface, but it has too often been misused by those in power to run rampant over the rights of suspects. Do I need to mention my own US government's behavior over the past 7 years? Perhaps in the context of TUC, they could be sure of Valeris' guilt and thus justify violating her rights in return, but how often can we be sure?

I believe her guilt was already established. Remember the set up in sick bay? This was followed by revelations by Valeris herself acknowledging a conspiracy and her involvement and motivations. All Kirk wanted was "NAMES" and the location of the peace conference. One must also assume that in a mind meld Valeris also learned Spock's thoughts and secrets too. This makes me less judgmental of him, knowing he has to reveal his thoughts and secrets too, and probably why Vulcans don't like to meld.

Even if a suspect "confesses," we don't know if he/she was coerced into that confession; or worse yet, confessed due to some mental illness. Even worse, if the suspect doesn't confess, making an assumption prior to conviction and using the excuse of "national security" or "get them before the get us...again" leads us down the slippery slope to fascism and the end to rule of law.

The question remains as to who the fascists were. IMO the conspirators are the fascists forcing their wills dishonestly upon others. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good to do nothing". Should Kirk/Spock do nothing and let fascism rule?

Are you familiar with Lincoln's suspension of Habeas Corpus -- "Would you let the whole go to pieces to preserve a part"?

http://www.eduqna.com/Quotations/2140-quotations-4.html