Spoilers Time travel issues S2

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I think it's a matter of who ends up leading humanity.

But as I said, if this is already an alternate past, then isn't it already too late to fix the timeline? No matter who ends up leading humanity?

I mean, supposedly the point of divergence (on April 15th) has yet to arrive. But if this is already an alternate timeline, isn't that date basically irrelevant? If this is already another past, then it should be too late to do anything about it.

Unless the implication is that if the point of divergence IS prevented, then the past will instantly reshape itself, with Guinan suddenly remembering meeting Picard in the 1800's and all that. Is this what we're supposed to believe?

 

[BillJ]

Logically speaking, how can two different pasts lead to the same future?

That is why we watch the episodes.

 

[BillJ]

Unless the implication is that if the point of divergence IS prevented, then the past will instantly reshape itself, with Guinan suddenly remembering meeting Picard in the 1800's and all that. Is this what we're supposed to believe?

I believe we'll end up with a "reshaped" Prime timeline when all is said and done. Freeing the writers to do what they want in any of the shows.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I would prefer at least a smidgen of consistency. I'm funny that way.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

But as I said, if this is already an alternate past, then isn't it already too late to fix the timeline?

Not if the critical choice is still in the future and yet to be made.

 

[BillJ]

I would prefer at least a smidgen of consistency.

It is Star Trek, it really hasn't been consistent over the last fifty-plus years. Why start now?

 

[Miss Chicken]

There has always been inconsistencies in

So how are they supposed to fix things? If this is already the Confederation's past, how can anything done here lead to the Federation's future? Isn't it already too late?

Logically speaking, how can two different pasts lead to the same future?

This isn’t normal case of time travel. Q orchestrated the change in the past and he has (or maybe had seeing he seems to have lost his powers) the power to fix things if Picard passes the test.

or maybe this timeline has been orchestrated by an even higher being than Q and he is only their pawn.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It is Star Trek, it really hasn't been consistent over the last fifty-plus years. Why start now?

At least they tried.

For instance, even though we didn't see any evidence of the Eugenics Wars in L.A. in "Future's End", we knew this wasn't a problem, since the USA wasn't involved in them. And Rain Robinson had a model of the Botany Bay on her desk, anyway. So at least lip service was being paid.

Now, we apparently have to move things further and further into the future because our reality hasn't had them yet (even though our 2024 will obviously not have things like Sanctuary Districts or a Europa mission). What's next? Forgetting all about the Mars missions to come? If 2063 comes around and we haven't met the damn Vulcans yet, are we gonna push THAT forward a hundred years? Where does it end?

Edit: I agree with everything @Miss Chicken just said.

 

[BillJ]

Now, we apparently have to move things further and further into the future because our reality hasn't had them yet (even though our 2024 will obviously not have, for example, a Europa mission). What's next? Forgetting all about the Mars missions to come? If 2063 comes around and we haven't met the damn Vulcans yet, are we gonna push THAT forward a hundred years? Where does it end?

I understand your pain, to some degree. Which is why I just watch Trek on a show-by-show basis and decide whether I enjoy them or not. If they get the broad strokes right, I'm usually okay with some changes.

But don't try to move the Eugenics Wars then tell me it is all the same universe.

 

[Miss Chicken]

There has always been inconsistencies in Trek, if there had not been I wouldn’t own these books.

the biggest mystery for me is where did my copy the ‘The Nitpicker’s Guide for Classic Trek’ and ‘The Nitpicker’s Guide for DS9’ disappear to? I know I owned them at one stage but I could not find them today.

 

[BillJ]

There has always been inconsistencies in Trek, if there had not been I wouldn’t own these books.

the biggest mystery for me is where did my copy the ‘The Nitpicker’s Guide for Classic Trek’ and ‘The Nitpicker’s Guide for DS9’ disappear to? I know I owned them at one stage but I could not find them today.

Alternate universe!

 

[fireproof78]

But as I said, if this is already an alternate past, then isn't it already too late to fix the timeline? No matter who ends up leading humanity?

I mean, supposedly the point of divergence (on April 15th) has yet to arrive. But if this is already an alternate timeline, isn't that date basically irrelevant? If this is already another past, then it should be too late to do anything about it.

Unless the implication is that if the point of divergence IS prevented, then the past will instantly reshape itself, with Guinan suddenly remembering meeting Picard in the 1800's and all that. Is this what we're supposed to believe?

I don't know. I think the way the season plays out will be more telling of the consequences. For starters, we have Q directly intervening in human history, which appears to be causing a ripple effect, not just a hard and fast point of no return. April 15 will be that point, but that things can be stopped or changed.

For instance, even though we didn't see any evidence of the Eugenics Wars in L.A. in "Future's End", we knew this wasn't a problem, since the USA wasn't involved in them. And Rain Robinson had a model of the Botany Bay on her desk, anyway. So at least lip service was being paid.

Which is a whole other level of BS because Spock goes "records are fragmentary" and then LA doesn't suffer and has no issues with this world war and the resulting data loss? Lip service that is poor is just poor.

Now, we apparently have to move things further and further into the future because our reality hasn't had them yet (even though our 2024 will obviously not have, for example, a Europa mission). What's next? Forgetting all about the Mars missions to come? If 2063 comes around and we haven't met the damn Vulcans yet, are we gonna push THAT forward a hundred years? Where does it end?

Reboot.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

or maybe this timeline has been orchestrated by an even higher being than Q and he is only their pawn.

Brian Brophy?

 

[Longinus]

Yes, my opinion of the punk is that if he continued this behaviour for 30 years than it is a given that he would have been confronted by someone before Seven. Maybe the previous encountered ended with a karate chop to the neck.

It's not that we cannot come up with reasons for his behaviour. But it is still crappy storytelling. The intent clearly is to remind us of Spock nerve pinching him, so then the viewer is primed to think in terms of previous time travel events being valid, and confused when Guinan doesn't remember Picard.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, Picard is confused too so it all works out.

 

[BillJ]

But it is still crappy storytelling.

The only failure in the storytelling is they should've known that many Star Trek fans simply have zero sense of humor.

 

[JoaquinSlowly]

Unless the implication is that if the point of divergence IS prevented, then the past will instantly reshape itself, with Guinan suddenly remembering meeting Picard in the 1800's and all that. Is this what we're supposed to believe?

Because it’s an altered timeline they’re trying to stop from being altered, ‪‪and not a divergent/separate timeline, ‪‪I believe that’s precisely what we’re meant to believe will happen.

Just as the Enterprise crew watched the Earth change as a result of the Borg’s trip to the past before following them, but those changes were gone after they returned following setting things right/undoing the Borg’s changes.

Once they stop Q from changing things on April 15th, or account for/make up for the change to whatever degree necessary, then the TNG future will be the destined quantum reality, and their time travel adventures to the past will be recreated.

 

[fireproof78]

The only failure in the storytelling is they should've known that many Star Trek fans simply have zero sense of humor.

Or that everything is taken strictly literally.

Because it’s an altered timeline they’re trying to stop from being altered, ‪‪and not a divergent/separate timeline, ‪‪I believe that’s precisely what we’re meant to believe will happen.

Just as the Enterprise crew watched the Earth change as a result of the Borg’s trip to the past before following them, but those changes were gone after they returned following setting things right/undoing the Borg’s changes.

Once they stop Q from changing things on the April 15th, or account for/make up for the change to whatever degree necessary, then the TNG future will be the destined quantum reality, and their time travel adventures to the past will be recreated.

That's the impression that seems to becoming is that Q is moving events in a way that result in the confederation.

 

[Longinus]

The only failure in the storytelling is they should've known that many Star Trek fans simply have zero sense of humor.

I loved the punk. But I was also confused by Guinan not remembering Picard, and I was hardly alone in this. And it was definitely party because the punk had primed me thinking that the past time travel events were valid. One can appreciate the bit being hella fun, and still see how the whole doesn't work quite as well as it could.

 

[BillJ]

That's the impression that seems to becoming is that Q is moving events in a way that result in the confederation.

I'm going to say Q took humanity off of the path to Confederation, and another entity undid his handy work. There's a line in the second episode about being blamed for what humanity had done.