The Women of The Trek

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Meadowmorph, Jan 5, 2019.

  1. sekundant

    sekundant Captain Captain

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    I always supposed, as a Vulcan, human ship must be cold for her, IIRC her quarter was warmer than rest of the ship. So her cat suit should have a kind of thermo function. Well, there is no evidence about it.

    I never understand this "T'Pol and Cat suit" issue. Did no one noticed what wore TOS ladies? How many girls could walk through without incident with miniskirts at country side even in Western countries at 1966? And none of them has the power and rang what T'Pol had. Did no one noticed how Troi strolled with 2/3 open breast, in cat suits etc. until Jellico came? She has only one purpose: being eye -candy for the cliche single geeks and horny daddies, not more. (For my taste, Sirtis is a very average Mediterranean woman). She set all the time at the bridge and was at the academy but what she learnt all the time? Even at 7th season she didn't not know what a commander does. She was not intelligent enough to understand, that she was raped. She was not aware of her female identity. She could not be even Mary Sue: " Captain, I am sensing, I am sensing... ehmm.. nothing "., but of course she was beloved and admired without any comprehend reason. Troi was the most unnecessary officer at the bridge of all ST history and insulting for the whole female gender. She is a fantasy of old Roddenberry, he created ideal lover for himself / his Riker alter ego. :rolleyes:

    I really do not understand when someone talks about ST-women, why T'Pols cat suits always one of the first the issue someone scold about, but not Troi's stupidity and reducing as a female only a sexy puppet. Is it something like "an intelligent and strong female cannot be sexy, but an idiot must be at least sexy" kind of thing? :wtf:
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
  2. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Crosby left because the she wasn't happy with her character development (not that anyone had much of that in S1). Muldaur wasn't looking for a regular role (I'm fairly certain she was going to retire before GR asked her to come in, if memory serves DC Fontana had originally pitched a Vulcan doctor to replace Crusher, but was overruled). Forbes also wasn't interested in a regular role (which is why Ro was recurring and never joined the crews of DS9 or VOY as originally planned).

    So unfortunately it was real life that stopped TNG from having "stronger" female roles. Though when Troi and Crusher had a moment to shine they were great characters, but they were lost when up against the likes of Picard, Data and Worf, who were all far bigger.
     
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  3. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Commodore Commodore

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    They were "nice" but hardly strong women. Good women and good at their jobs (at least Crusher- who knows what Troi was meant to do but good at counseling)
    They would always defer to the male characters.
    I think they made say Crusher hide behind Picard on away missions to make him look tougher. Other female characters like Ro weren't there to dote over the men so they could have stronger roles.
     
  4. Riker'sMailbox

    Riker'sMailbox Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    GR was not as progressive as many like to give him credit for and his attempts at progressiveness seemed more like window dressing than anything else.

    Sci-fi has long been the domain of men. There are female fans, I mean, I am one of them. But, I don't think it can be argued against that male fans outnumber the female fans. Even as the series progressed through to VOY and women were given more respect on the show, more responsibility, and higher positions, it is still a tv show that needs to make money. Men like looking at attractive women. Men like to see the strong and confident man protect the woman. Biology, yo. Kira in a catsuit is more attractive than Kira in traditional Bajoran clothing.

    I think that all the higher ups at ST, during each of it's series up through VOY tried to give female characters that would appeal to it's target audience during the time in which the series was made. I think they made them as strong as they could within those parameters (target audience and time in which the show was made).

    ENT was...different and, ultimately unsuccessful. I think they were way too dependent on T'Pol's body and not enough on storytelling. In this case, sex didn't sell.

    Have not seen one episode of DIS, so can't comment there.
     
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  5. Meadowmorph

    Meadowmorph Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I agree. Sex is not bad. the evolution of gender in our Star Trek universe was interesting to me. These are wonderful actors. In other words, in the TNG era, except for perhaps Troi (the actor talks about the cat suit and how she managed to get out of having to wear it...when she grew a brain. It's a hoot if you can find the video) They wore the clothing rather than in TNG where the clothing wore them. To understand what's going on here is to understand the era.
     
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  6. Meadowmorph

    Meadowmorph Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I'm kind of surprised no one has mentioned where, in the first season, Riker played a submissive to the Planet of the Dominant Women's, leader. He wore the skimpy clothing and an earring and keeled before her. It was a gender switch, and I thought very brave for the writers at the time. If you want to talk about clothing and gender identity, take a look at how the men in that world dressed. The jealous one wore a pair of pants that played to his very nice bum.
     
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  7. Riker'sMailbox

    Riker'sMailbox Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Such a bad episode. I think the idea had potential for it to be a social commentary but it came across as more of a gimmick than anything else.
     
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  8. sekundant

    sekundant Captain Captain

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    After all facts do we know about UPN, about Les Moonves and the BnB interviews calling the show as unsuccessful is more than unfair, if not ignorance. Maybe it could be your own meaning, but it is not the fact. Even reducing whole the show to selling T'Pol's body is not objective. Shall we say TOS was unsuccessful also they use all the gorgeous half naked beauties?

    None of the shows sold sex primarily, although sex is an important part of our culture and lives. TNG, which I criticize because of a figure like Troi (and only little bit better Crusher) and being to much idealized, told us great heart touching stories. Even bestseller of all times, Bible, is full of sex stories. Ignoring sex would be not realistic, not about human being. One of the mostly appreciated thing about ST is to telling us the stories about being human. At this point, ENT delivered us very hart stuff, not idealized future, not soap opera for the bottom of society. They showed us a very realistic future with not easy answers. I wish they hadn't BnB at charge on writing issue, they messed up unnecessary too much episodes. Nevertheless, they gave us a strong woman like T'Pol not a sexy body without story, back round and smartness.

    Not everyone (male or female or what they want to call their selves) must have perfect body and intelligence but fairness needs everyone.
     
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  9. Riker'sMailbox

    Riker'sMailbox Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    It was cancelled after 4 season when it was ranked 150th in the Nielsons. That is an unsuccessful show, considering the three previous ST series all had 7 season runs. All the sex appeal in the world couldn't save it.

    Who is saying that sex needs to be ignored on ST? I didn't see one person say that.
     
  10. sekundant

    sekundant Captain Captain

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    It is something like to say "Our dog is dead, it was only 5 kilos before it died, no vet in the world could save it" before telling you let him starving half year long. Canceling decision made by Les Moonves (if we believe #Meetoo accusations, he also does not like strong, intelligent and sexy women) so long before the last season, so their budget is reduced and have to give up their broadcast time. The reason was not success, he wanted to make easy money with sitcoms, did not want to invest for Star Trek. Despite of all these things, ENT was the UPN's highest ranked drama series at the cancellation. Our meanings/considerations/ ignorance/ incomplete information are our issues, facts are facts. You can search them at the uncle Google or here at Trekbbs.

    Ohh sorry, maybe I could not to tell as you can understand, try to make it better, easier, sorry if I am fail again: Sex can be good sale argument, but if it was not, ST should show it anyhow, so long it is a important part of our culture and lives. Problem is how it can be handled with controversies and different aspects of life, since ST shows -mostly very successful- our realities relentless to us. ENT did it very well, despite you say so:

    If you could not still understand, please ask again, I am willing to try it again.

    If I am going back to topic again, I am not always happy with female figures of ST universe, but there are also very strong ones just like 7, T'Pol or Ro Laren. They are strong while they have stories to tell, they are not perfect but they are ready to fight even against their selves, they are not Mary Sue's, they are real and they are someone with or without their men. It remembers me a funny German quote for the girls:
    " Hinfallen, Ausstehen, Krone richten, weitergehen" , I hope I can translate it analogue:
    " Fall down, get up, straighten tiara, carry on." :angel:
     
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  11. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Crusher was a strong character. In "The High Ground" she stood hers to treat injured following the bombing, know that she was in the wrong. In "Descent" she belays Picard's orders, puts the ship in danger to rescue the crew and takes out a Borg vessel. In "Attached" she is willing to sacrifice her life for Picard. "Suspicions" sees her risk court martial because she needed to prove suicide wasn't suicide, and then puts her life on the line to validate the work of a Ferengi scientist. In "Chain of Command" she puts the mission first and orders Worf to retreat instead of attempting to save Picard, despite their close friendship. The only time I can remember her hiding behind someone was when Troi pulled her back from a Romulan disruptor beam in "Timescape". It all shows just who the character was when she wasn't being a mother or a healer.
     
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  12. Meadowmorph

    Meadowmorph Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    There were quite a few "stinkers" in the first year. I am so happy the viewers didn't diminish during this time. Having said that, there were many episodes in the first year I enjoy today. It seemed that in the first year the show was trying to find its own legs. More than one episode was a repeat plot in TOS. This episode was original, at least. It would have been cool if they had written it better, I agree.
     
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  13. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Not a brilliant episode but not bad, but the bit I liked was the mention of the Enterprise heading to the Neutral Zone to confront a Romulan attack force!!! But we never saw or heard anything more on that subject at all! :rommie:
    JB
     
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  14. Meadowmorph

    Meadowmorph Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I really enjoyed "Suspicions". It was a script the actor could handle well. I really don't feel the actor had the depth and breadth to handle the some of others scripts; Gates just couldn't do "tough" really well. It seemed hard for her to step outside the role of Doctor and Mother, and friend. I enjoyed "Attached", but she wasn't playing tough, she was playing the Captain's friend and defining their relationship further. Nice arch.
     
  15. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Commodore Commodore

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    Gates was fine in a caring friend/mother/doctor role but if TNG and TOS were made now I'd think they'd need a regular female character who wasn't acting as a friend/infatuated with the male leads.
    One who could take charge of the ship/landing party/mission without needing a man to help.
    Late in TNG and in the movies to some extent they "toughened" up Crusher a little bit but to me it was too little too late.
     
  16. Meadowmorph

    Meadowmorph Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I've often thought of one difference between Kirk and Jaynway: While Kirk was bedding female aliens weekly as well as making suggestive remarks of the female crew, Jaynway was scripted as "The Virgin Queen". She did have a few near misses, even with her first officer when they had to be marooned together for their health, but sex was not a part of THAT Captain's story (unless you include "hologram love".). Now, Mulgrew had no problem acting tough.
     
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  17. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    She was engaged to Mark for the first 4 years.

    I watched a doc (Clash of the Gods) on the Odyssey today, where the narrator made such a deal of the double standard where Odysseus was allowed to fuck around, no recriminations, meanwhile Penelope back home had spent 20 years telling suitors to rack off because she was a chaste perfect good wife, waiting for decades, with her legs shut, no matter what her husband got up to abroad.

    Seriously, all the cool stuff we hear about on the Odyssey happened in the first two years, and then year three wily Odysseus was in a tryst with Sersi for a year, and then banging the nymph Calypso for seven years.

    8 years knocking boots, and two years sailing in circles.

    Janeway could take some lessons.
     
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  18. Delta Vega

    Delta Vega Captain Captain

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    Personally speaking, I like The Lovely Droxene, Helen Noel, Elaan of Troyius, Angeligue Pettyjohn's tinfoil bikini clad character, Nancy Kovak's witch woman, and the Orion Girl (who's name shamefully escapes me) form Garth's crew to name but a few Women of Trek.
    I don't care if they are strong characters or not, they were beautiful women and they are captured at the peak of their beauty on film forever.
    Beauty and sex appeal aren't a crime.
     
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  19. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

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    Barbara.
     
  20. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Commodore Commodore

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    That sounds like it should be a title for a reality TV series.

    Nothing wrong with beautiful people on Star Trek but if thats all there is to the women you might as well watch "Love Island".