The Wheel of Time on Amazon Prime

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Jedman67, Nov 18, 2021.

  1. LaxScrutiny

    LaxScrutiny Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm not disagreeing with you. Thribbs asked about the books. That said, it's only consequential if... (Warning Major Spoiler)
    ...Rand is not the Dragon, and/or Birgitte is not reincarnated as a woman. Other than that it doesn't change anything by itself. except when we get to Rand and Nynaeve teaming up to jointly cleanse saidin. This is one of the most powerful and meaningful events in the entire series, completely altering the position of the Aes Sedai politically, along with probably a shift in male/female relations socially and culturally. Rand and Nynaeve changed the world together, White Tower and Black Tower working as one. IMHO it's essential they do it together, and Rand has to complete his Hero's Journey to get there.

    If Rand was a false Dragon the Aes Sedai would have gentled him like they did Logain. The only thing stopping them was the Prophecy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2021
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  2. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ Okay. I wasn't trying to correct what you were saying, BTW; I just wanted to highlight that what was done in the novels is, in this particular instance, explicitly not what the show is doing.
     
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  3. thribs

    thribs Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I know someone has been recast in season 2 but I don’t remember who
     
  4. Jedman67

    Jedman67 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Rafe Judkins has made it clear that the core of the series will not be changed. It's essential that the Dragon from the books is the same in the show; we are supposed to watch the show believing that none of the characters know for sure who the right one is.

    Just like the book.

    I didn't figure it out on the first read through, and Moiraine wasn't sure until the end, although she had her suspicions. There have been enough clues in the first 4 episodes that an astute watcher could figure it out, although I grant that it's only clues.
    Barney Harris, who plays Mat Cauthon was replaced by Donal Finn in S2. Harris's departure was confirmed by the show but never explained.
     
  5. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Again, Rafe and his team explicitly changed the metaphysics of the WoT world for the show so that there are two fundamental differences from the novels:
    1) The Dragon could have legitimately been reborn as a female
    2) The veracity of prophecies concerning the rebirth of the Dragon is now tenuous and not something that anyone, including the Aes Sedai, are fully certain about

    By making these changes, Rafe and his team have signalled that it is entirely possible that the identity of the Dragon Reborn will not be the same in the show as it is in the books, which in turn signals that they don't feel that possibly changing the identity of the Dragon Reborn and staying true to the core of the series are mutually exclusive things.

    You can stay steadfast in your conviction that the identity of the Dragon Reborn will be the same in the show as it was in the novels, but the metaphysical changes that Rafe and his team made to the WoT world for the show offer a direct counter to that conviction and make it less solid than you believe that it is.
     
  6. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

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    The metaphysical changes were just to make the world more agreeable to modern sensibilities, and to add mystery to a subplot that was pretty obvious in the books. They're not going to change a core facet of the entire story.
     
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  7. wayoung

    wayoung Commodore Commodore

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    Watched the first episode. I've never read the books. Thought it was pretty silly. Laughed out loud when the Minotaurs showed up. Pike, who is a great actor, was pulling some Enchantress from Suicide Squad level silly dance magic. Seems pretty made by a committee checking boxes.
     
  8. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    We'll see.
     
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  9. LaxScrutiny

    LaxScrutiny Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    :) And if you're wrong, what will be your penance?
     
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  10. Thestral

    Thestral Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Changing the identity of the Dragon Reborn would be like making Galadriel accept the One Ring, or Saruman staying on the side of Good. It'd be like making Neville Longbottom be The Boy Who Lived, or Katniss Everdeen keep quiet when her sister is selected.
     
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  11. LaxScrutiny

    LaxScrutiny Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, exactly.

    Why even make a series called "Wheel of Time" if you're going to obliterate >90% of the story? If Rand isn't the Dragon, then you're just left with some side arcs about Matt (which I'd still watch), Perrin, and Egwene, with Nynaeve as the only real choice to be the focal hero. But why even keep them? Just start from scratch.

    I totally see the point in taking out some of the sexism, making it more vague and therefore palatable to current audiences. (Although I think Jordan's version is excellent food for thought.) I can see the point in enhancing the mystery of who would be the Dragon at this point in the narrative. What I can't see is the point of trying to retell a story by telling a totally different story. (ETA: Actually that happens all the time. I don't see the point if it's marketed as the same story.)

    I also don't see the point in arguing all this. Let's just enjoy the show and enjoy what happens. We can argue it after the fact..
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2021
  12. thribs

    thribs Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So
    Rand
    is the Dragon? Trust the one that reminds me of Anakin Skywalker to be the chosen one. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2021
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  13. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

    I don't know if Rafe and his team will change the identity of the Dragon Reborn, but they absolutely could (were they so inclined) based on their having altered the metaphysics of the WoT world for the TV show.
     
  14. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

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    I know these books are fairly old by this point, but there are people ITT who haven't read them, so could you guys please edit these posts to remove or cover up the spoilers?
     
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  15. Jedman67

    Jedman67 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Please fix your spoiler tag. Replace the } bracket with a ]

    DigiFic, very few things have been changed from the books so far. Yes, of course some scenes take place differently and some tertiary characters have been changed. That's all part of bringing a book to TV.
    The lore has been made a little more gender neutral, in order to bring the show into a more modern audience.
    The fact is, all the important characters from Book 1 - the 5 from Emonds Field, Lan and Moiraine - are very true to the characters portrayed in the show.
    Episode 4 brings the Logain backstory into focus, in order to show the viewers just how dangerous it is for
    a man to channel
    .
     
  16. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't think that anyone- readers or non-readers - should treat the identity of the Dragon Reborn - from an in-universe and metatextual narrative perspective - as being a foregone conclusion until the show actually reveals it to us.
     
  17. EmoBorg

    EmoBorg Commodore Commodore

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    I just saw the 4 episodes. It reminded me of the Shadow and Bones series.
     
  18. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It pretty much is because they are sticking to most of the overall arc of the first book so far, and changing the identity of the Dragon Reborn is such a huge, HUGE, change that there is absolutely no way they could do it and still tell the same story.
    From the beginning they have been saying they are staying true to the books, and changing the identity of the Dragon Reborn, would definitely not be doing that.
     
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  19. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ Until the show definitively answers the "who is the Dragon Reborn?" question, this is going to be an area where I feel differently based on my own reading of Rafe's comments.
     
  20. FreezeC77

    FreezeC77 Commodore Commodore

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    I personally seriously doubt the Dragon Reborn will change from the books. I think the showrunners want even book readers to feel 'uncertainty' such as when they first read the book. I do really think people who read the books and know the identity need to be VERY CAREFUL of things they post and not do such in a way to confirm the 'book identity' (which I believe will end up the TV show identity as well) of the Dragon Reborn and diminish the reveal for first time people who didn't read the books.

    That being careful would include SPOILER for the books
    Talking about 'changing the gender' of the dragon reborn which would diminish the 'could be female' narrative that the showrunners are attempting to present or outright describing the physical appearance of the actor portraying the character in a way that makes a viewer go "oh, they're talking about this person"
     
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