The way TNG looked in the ENT episode "These are The Voyages"....

[RandyS]

One can only hope that they also see fit to "make sense" out of "And the Children Shall Lead", "Threshold", and "Profit and Lace", all of which were a hundred times the abomination that TATV was.

Threshold, I'll grant you, but Quark in drag is a thousand times better that Trip's moronic, idiotic suicide (and this from a guy who hated Trip's guts from his first appearance onscreen).

But then, anything DS9 is automatically better than anything ENTERPRISE, So maybe you shouldn't go by me.

 

[Praetor]

"It was such an abomination in the eyes of God, Man and nearly every fan in the galaxy, that Paramount agreed to allow us to write a story that kind of makes sense out of it."

One can only hope that they also see fit to "make sense" out of "And the Children Shall Lead", "Threshold", and "Profit and Lace", all of which were a hundred times the abomination that TATV was.

I wouldn't say they were worse. At least 'And the Children Shall Lead' has a camp enjoyability factor. 'Threshold,' 'Profit and Lace' and 'Sub Rosa' are probably on par with 'TATV' but at least none of those were a series finale. Personally I'd say 'Shades of Gray' is worse simply for being a poorly (or not at all) disguised clip show.

 

[The Wormhole]

No, you argued that it was a decision made in response to Internet fans' pressure, which is an entirely different conclusion.

I understand that my post have looked like that, but what I actually meant is that these novels, regardless of their intent, could be interpretted by many fans as as a victory and evidence that their bitching paid off.

In any event, I think that the conclusion that CBS/Paramount only allowed Mangels and Martin to re-interpret "These Are the Voyages...." because they thought it would be more profitable is a deeply cynical interpretation that's supported by zero evidence.

I'm not saying it's the only reason, just that it could very well be a reason. Also, the line, "CBS allowed TATV to be contradicted, which means they don't consider it canon" is just overly optimistis, and is supported by equally zero evidence

To attribute creative apathy to her and to CBS as a result of character testimony and documentary evidence is, I think, fundamentally irrational.

All this cockfuckery over TATV with a hate on for it, the urge to rewrite it and erase Trip's death is, I think, fundamentally irrational.

 

[Mach5]

All this cockfuckery over TATV with a hate on for it, the urge to rewrite it and erase Trip's death is, I think, fundamentally irrational.

Hm, TATV has really become something of a phenomenon, hasn't it? Fresh TATV threads keep popping out on a regular basis, and its been almost four years since the damn thing first aired. People should have gotten over over it by now, but that simply isn't the case. I wonder what would Dr. Phil say...

 

[Sci]

No, you argued that it was a decision made in response to Internet fans' pressure, which is an entirely different conclusion.

I understand that my post have looked like that, but what I actually meant is that these novels, regardless of their intent, could be interpretted by many fans as as a victory and evidence that their bitching paid off.

Gotcha.

In any event, I think that the conclusion that CBS/Paramount only allowed Mangels and Martin to re-interpret "These Are the Voyages...." because they thought it would be more profitable is a deeply cynical interpretation that's supported by zero evidence.

I'm not saying it's the only reason, just that it could very well be a reason. Also, the line, "CBS allowed TATV to be contradicted, which means they don't consider it canon" is just overly optimistis, and is supported by equally zero evidence

I didn't say that CBS doesn't consider TATV to be canonical. Clearly they do. The Good That Men Do didn't really contradict TATV, because TATV did not established what happened in 2161. TATV established what the denizens of the late 24th Century believed happened in 2161. The Good That Men Do just revealed that what the denizens of the late 24th Century believed to have happened in 2161 was wrong.

To attribute creative apathy to her and to CBS as a result of character testimony and documentary evidence is, I think, fundamentally irrational.

All this cockfuckery over TATV with a hate on for it, the urge to rewrite it and erase Trip's death is, I think, fundamentally irrational.

I thoroughly disagree. I think that TATV was very, very poorly-written, and that, in particular, Trip's death sequence made no sense from either a plot perspective (where were the MACOs and Reed's security folk?) or from a character perspective (why did Tucker seem so eager to die to stop the aliens? why couldn't he figure out another way to stop them?). As such, in my view, it was perfectly rational to creatively re-interpret it.

 

[Level 2 Diagnostic]

^ I for one would like to see the novelization of "Sub Rosa."

Well, you can read an excerpt from the novelization, if you like.

 

[Level 2 Diagnostic]

I thoroughly disagree. I think that TATV was very, very poorly-written, and that, in particular, Trip's death sequence made no sense from either a plot perspective (where were the MACOs and Reed's security folk?) or from a character perspective (why did Tucker seem so eager to die to stop the aliens? why couldn't he figure out another way to stop them?). As such, in my view, it was perfectly rational to creatively re-interpret it.

There are plenty of Trek episodes that are poorly written, with scenes that make no sense from a plot perspective or from a character perspective. And yet, those episodes don't get creative reinterpretations. So obviously there are some other factors at work here.

 

[Mach5]

There are plenty of Trek episodes that are poorly written, with scenes that make no sense from a plot perspective or from a character perspective. And yet, those episodes don't get creative reinterpretations. So obviously there are some other factors at work here.

Um, the fact that it was the series finale and the last Star Trek episode to date?

 

[Sci]

I thoroughly disagree. I think that TATV was very, very poorly-written, and that, in particular, Trip's death sequence made no sense from either a plot perspective (where were the MACOs and Reed's security folk?) or from a character perspective (why did Tucker seem so eager to die to stop the aliens? why couldn't he figure out another way to stop them?). As such, in my view, it was perfectly rational to creatively re-interpret it.

There are plenty of Trek episodes that are poorly written, with scenes that make no sense from a plot perspective or from a character perspective. And yet, those episodes don't get creative reinterpretations.

Actually, a fair number of them have been creatively re-interpreted, including the irrationality of Quark being happy that Bajor would join the moneyless Federation in "Rapture" being explained in the DS9 Relaunch, the unseen conversation between Odo and Kira during the party in "You Are Cordially Invited..." being depicted and explained in The Dominion: Olympus Descending, Picard's inconsistent behavior towards the Borg being more fully explained in Greater Than the Sum and the Destiny trilogy, the contradictions between how the Borg are portrayed being explained in Greater Than the Sum and Destiny as well, the bizarre fate of Kes in "Fury" being re-interpreted in the String Theory trilogy, and the resurrection of Kirk in the Shatnerverse novels.

So obviously there are some other factors at work here.

Presumably their writers' belief that such a fundamentally poorly-written end was inappropriate for a main character, particularly one for whom they could develop interesting future stories that would be consistent with what the canon established.

 

[The Wormhole]

I thoroughly disagree. I think that TATV was very, very poorly-written, and that, in particular, Trip's death sequence made no sense from either a plot perspective (where were the MACOs and Reed's security folk?) or from a character perspective (why did Tucker seem so eager to die to stop the aliens? why couldn't he figure out another way to stop them?). As such, in my view, it was perfectly rational to creatively re-interpret it.

TATV clearly has its problems, and wasn't really thought out. But do we stop there? The floodgates have opened. Do we now rewrite Generations so that the destruction of the Enterprise D is something more than a lucky shot? Is Spock's Brain or And The Children Shall Lead going to be re-written so that they are good?

Bad episodes are bad episodes. But they are episodes none the less.

On a similar note, why did they decide to keep Trip alive? Not to slam the character, but it seems like a cheat that his death was faked. Yes, his death scene sucked, but he died. If we're re-writing the episode, why not just give him a heroic and meaningful death?

 

[Sci]

I thoroughly disagree. I think that TATV was very, very poorly-written, and that, in particular, Trip's death sequence made no sense from either a plot perspective (where were the MACOs and Reed's security folk?) or from a character perspective (why did Tucker seem so eager to die to stop the aliens? why couldn't he figure out another way to stop them?). As such, in my view, it was perfectly rational to creatively re-interpret it.

TATV clearly has its problems, and wasn't really thought out. But do we stop there? The floodgates have opened. Do we now rewrite Generations so that the destruction of the Enterprise D is something more than a lucky shot? Is Spock's Brain or And The Children Shall Lead going to be re-written so that they are good?

Bad episodes are bad episodes. But they are episodes none the less.

On a similar note, why did they decide to keep Trip alive? Not to slam the character, but it seems like a cheat that his death was faked. Yes, his death scene sucked, but he died. If we're re-writing the episode, why not just give him a heroic and meaningful death?

Presumably because they felt that the character, and the series as a whole, could be better served by revealing the death to have been a fake.

 

[Praetor]

I thoroughly disagree. I think that TATV was very, very poorly-written, and that, in particular, Trip's death sequence made no sense from either a plot perspective (where were the MACOs and Reed's security folk?) or from a character perspective (why did Tucker seem so eager to die to stop the aliens? why couldn't he figure out another way to stop them?). As such, in my view, it was perfectly rational to creatively re-interpret it.

TATV clearly has its problems, and wasn't really thought out. But do we stop there? The floodgates have opened. Do we now rewrite Generations so that the destruction of the Enterprise D is something more than a lucky shot? Is Spock's Brain or And The Children Shall Lead going to be re-written so that they are good?

Bad episodes are bad episodes. But they are episodes none the less.

On a similar note, why did they decide to keep Trip alive? Not to slam the character, but it seems like a cheat that his death was faked. Yes, his death scene sucked, but he died. If we're re-writing the episode, why not just give him a heroic and meaningful death?

I agree, and it's why I don't hold the books in the same degree of canon. There was a while when I just wanted to plug my ears and pretend the whole 'Enterprise' series never happened but that's silly, and a ridiculous precedent. Suspension of disbelief is one thing, but exclusionary rectons are another.

(I happen to like both 'Spock's Brain' and 'The Children Shall Lead' for camp, however.)

 

[jamestyler]

TATV clearly has its problems, and wasn't really thought out. But do we stop there? The floodgates have opened. Do we now rewrite Generations so that the destruction of the Enterprise D is something more than a lucky shot? Is Spock's Brain or And The Children Shall Lead going to be re-written so that they are good?

On one hand if a writer has a good idea that works, is entertainig and explainable they should go ahead with it and it TPTB give it the green light. Good. Canon is one thing, audience is another. Who's reading these books? Do the Star Trek books appeal to a wider audience or just a small collective? If it's the latter, that small collective may be worth pandering to.

Those who read the books religionsly are well aware that world and the on screen world are two seperate entities.

But... my problem is with the people who will take it as a 'victory' as previously mentioned. The ones who pick and choose whats canon and not, the superfans who spoil it for the rest of us. Give them a win and they won't shut up

 

[Alidar Jarok]

This episode has created hostility and bitter arguments since before it aired.

Perhaps in an effort to keep civility, it might be better to remain on topic and talk about the production (after all, there's the whole Enterprise forum for the episode itself).

Personally, I thought the inside shots looked pretty good in the episode, but the CGI ship bugged me because of those lights on the saucer which never seemed to be on in the show, but were randomly on in this episode.

Riker and Troi were obviously off as well (I'm not going to complain about their weight, although Troi's hair seems like a legitimate point to complain about).

 

[jamestyler]

Personally, I thought the inside shots looked pretty good in the episode, but the CGI ship bugged me because of those lights on the saucer which never seemed to be on in the show, but were randomly on in this episode.

The ones on the rim, right? I think I noticed them on the second viewing. Though whenever I see a CGI of a former model it always looks completely different to me.

Riker and Troi were obviously off as well (I'm not going to complain about their weight, although Troi's hair seems like a legitimate point to complain about).

Hair yes. Weight... I agree with. It's the Data argument, I read a lot of people comlaining that he's aged over the years. what do they expect spiner to do about aging?

It's a writer fault - but then the Titan woudln't have really worked all that well considering it's an Enterprise-Enterprise link.

 

[Timo]

Then again, hairdos that change much faster than would be possible in the 21st century are a rather frequent continuity error in Star Trek, just like in so many other TV shows. So perhaps we could take the fact that Star Trek is a scifi show and declare that hairdos can be rapidly changed in the 24th century? A bit like the change-your-nail-polish-with-a-touch thing from a certain other scifi flick, or the blue-is-the-new-red-instant-costume-change from another...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dane_Whitman]

Hair yes. Weight... I agree with. It's the Data argument, I read a lot of people comlaining that he's aged over the years. what do they expect spiner to do about aging?

Those people should have been paying closer attention to Inheritance because that episode establishes that Data DOES age.

Geordi: Not only does she age in appearance like Data...

On the one hand I didn't have much of a problem with the appearance of Troi and Riker in TaTV. We've had to suspend disbelief many times. In All Good Things... 'season 1 Worf' looks nothing like Worf during season 1. Yar looks a lot older than season 1 Yar, it's pretty glaring. Did it matter? No.

On the other hand, All Good Things... was a well-written episode with a neat concept. Having those actors play younger versions of themselves was necessary for the plot. Placing TaTV Riker and Troi in the middle of TNG's The Pegasus was just a bad idea in the first place. It would have worked better on the Titan. They created a problem were none was necessary.

 

[The Wormhole]

I don't mean to kick a dead horse here, but I just had another idea. Was it really necessary to rewrite TATV as a novel that established TATV as fake events? If they really wanted to present this alternate take on things, couldn't they have just done it as a story for one of the Myriad Universe anthologies that was released last year? That way, you can please TATV haters by still pissing over it, and you can avoid all these "how dare you" complaints since all it is is one of many "what if" stories.

 

[Level 2 Diagnostic]

Placing TaTV Riker and Troi in the middle of TNG's The Pegasus was just a bad idea in the first place. It would have worked better on the Titan. They created a problem were none was necessary.

Well, I kind of see what they were going for. They wanted to pay tribute to the last time Trek was popular on TV and show a ship that people had an attachment to. Imagine those last flyby shots, only instead of the Ent-D, it would have been this Titan ship that no one had ever seen before. It definitely would have lessened the impact of the final shots.

Honestly, I think it was not the idea that was the problem but the execution, a common theme with Berman-Braga scripts. I like the idea of going back and showing us an old episode from a different perspective (it worked before: "Trials and Tribble-lations"). The holodeck could have been an interesting way to have the casts of two shows interacting without having yet another cliched time travel story.

Hell, even the death of Trip wasn't that bad of an idea. In the hands of good writers, it could have been a poignant way to end the series, and a vast improvement over the non-ending that Voyager got.

 

[Oso Blanco]

I don't even get why they had to try to sandwich Riker's holodeck time in with the events of The Pegasus, which BTW they failed at. Epic failure. And why they felt the need to show us modern-day Frakes and Sirtis and force us to believe they were Riker and Troi from eleven years previous is a mystery we'll never get a satisfactory answer to.

If for some weird and cocaine-related reason they felt that Riker and Troi's Jonathan Archer holodeck program had to be the series finale for Enterprise, why not have it set post-Nemesis, with the two of them on board the Titan. I mean, from a production viewpoint it wouldn't have been difficult. Building sets for the Titan couldn't have cost anymore than re-building the TNG sets did. And they must have plenty of CG models on hand of any of the 24th century starships. And at least we'd have a logical reason for why Riker and Troi look older, they're supposed to.

It is for these reasons that TATV remains the one undeniable failure in all of Star Trek.

Agreed on all accounts!