Psychopaths are like that terrifying young man who committed that horrible crime in Arizona. She wasn't like that, ever.
...I know I've said it before, but was I watching a different show or something?
The Janeway debate
- Thread starter hux
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Psychopaths are like that terrifying young man who committed that horrible crime in Arizona. She wasn't like that, ever.
...I know I've said it before, but was I watching a different show or something?
Well fair enough. I was reacting to how your arguments are usually constructed. In my experience, you've had a tendency to blame men's insecurities about women in charge as the main reason they dislike Janeway.
If this isn't what you were saying this time, then I apologise for the mis-read.
However I've said before, why would you even give someone the time of day if their argument for disliking Janeway is based solely on her gender? It would be the same as disliking Sisko for being black or Picard for being bald/French/actually British.
Well fair enough. I was reacting to how your arguments are usually constructed. In my experience, you've had a tendency to blame men's insecurities about women in charge as the main reason they dislike Janeway.
If this isn't what you were saying this time, then I apologise for the mis-read.
I appreciate that.
However I should point out that it wasn't what I was ever saying. Yes, I believe that a person's insecurities can play a role in a preconceived notion but I don't believe that men are the only ones to fall prey to this. I do find it interesting that you were posting in reaction to an incorrect idea you had about me rather than the actual printed words - ironically it illustrates the very idea I was posting about.
For my part posting here is something I do a few minutes here and there in between real life activities. Obviously there are posts I could put more time into or else wait and post when I do have more time.
True.
Psychopaths are like that terrifying young man who committed that horrible crime in Arizona. She wasn't like that, ever.
...I know I've said it before, but was I watching a different show or something?
Yeah, there's no way I would have watched Voyager if that creep was the captain.
Many of the controversies about Janeway's decisions are about things like the Prime Directive, which don't really have any set meaning or relevance to any known society or polity. People who have determined what the "right" answer is may be in error themselves. For instance, Tuvok babbles something about the Prime Directive forbidding any effort to keep the array from the Kazon, even if it means the conquest of the Ocampa. I don't see how this is true, and I really don't see how anyone can be so categorically certain it is true.
Similarly, the supposed controversy over the Borg alliance in Scorpion depends upon the assertions that the Borg have slaughtered billions and that the Borg began the war with species 8472. The first ignores the fact that assimilation is not death, however much a fan may think it is a fate worse than death. The second forgets that destroying whole planets, which really does slaughter billions, in response to an unsuccessful attack on a single ship, is such overkill as to constitute a crime in itself. In other words, some of the criticisms of the Janeway character are just plain crazy.
Worst of all, inasmuch as Janeway was explicitly written to be wrong, even at the expense of decency and logic (notably, Equinox and Tuvix,) the complaint that Janeway was written as always right is stupid, as in, the viewer is in some sort of stupor, oblivious to what's right in front of his face.
Similarly, the supposed controversy over the Borg alliance in Scorpion depends upon the assertions that the Borg have slaughtered billions and that the Borg began the war with species 8472. The first ignores the fact that assimilation is not death, however much a fan may think it is a fate worse than death. The second forgets that destroying whole planets, which really does slaughter billions, in response to an unsuccessful attack on a single ship, is such overkill as to constitute a crime in itself. In other words, some of the criticisms of the Janeway character are just plain crazy.
Worst of all, inasmuch as Janeway was explicitly written to be wrong, even at the expense of decency and logic (notably, Equinox and Tuvix,) the complaint that Janeway was written as always right is stupid, as in, the viewer is in some sort of stupor, oblivious to what's right in front of his face.
Most people who throw around words like Psychopath or Sociopath etc to describe a fictional character like Janeway usually have NO idea what the term means, so I pay little attention to their comments.
If you look at the morals/ethical standards/traits that drive the decision of the 4 Captains in TOS, TNG, Ds9 and VOY, they are clearly different. Unlike the others, Janeway is very much "Plato" when it comes to some decisions ie her decision/viewpoint is superior or more valuable than that of her peers. While some may regard this as a character flaw/plot destroyer and get their nickers in a knot over it, I think it's refreshing and makes for a different captain with different stories from a different point of view. Afterall, it's fiction.
If you look at the morals/ethical standards/traits that drive the decision of the 4 Captains in TOS, TNG, Ds9 and VOY, they are clearly different. Unlike the others, Janeway is very much "Plato" when it comes to some decisions ie her decision/viewpoint is superior or more valuable than that of her peers. While some may regard this as a character flaw/plot destroyer and get their nickers in a knot over it, I think it's refreshing and makes for a different captain with different stories from a different point of view. Afterall, it's fiction.
If Janeway was written by one author the whole way through, then she would be both a sociopath and a psychopath, but she wasn't. lots and lots of rational sane authors with different opinions on this and that... Although every other tv show has always mostly had the same amount of different writers working on the same project, so why is this an excuse for Voyager?
The simplest definition I ever heard for splitting the diagnosises was that a psychopath doesn't understand the difference between good and bad, meanwhile a sociopath just doesn't care.
The simplest definition I ever heard for splitting the diagnosises was that a psychopath doesn't understand the difference between good and bad, meanwhile a sociopath just doesn't care.
I don't agree with that difference. The DSM-IV lists the two disorders together as they are largely the same. Even the experts can't agree over what the differences are or even if any differences even exist.
Both are totally self-serving and neither have a social conscience - feeling neither guilt or remorse. The main perceived difference relates to organisational skills where a psychopath is thought to be well organised, can plan well and appear charming, mimic behaviours that make them attractive to others whereas a sociopath is less well organised, less attractive to others and inclined to be more isolated from others.
Either way they make scary and danderous criminals!
Or lawyers.
Ding ding ding! Criticizing Picard for not liking Q makes a lot of sense... if you completely ignore what he's done to Picard and his crew.
True. I once had a bi-polar roommate. Not that this makes me an expert on psychology but I have had a reluctant education in all ups and downs of daily life with one. Believe me, Janeway doesn't even come close...
Much of what he did due to Picards arrogance.
Much if not all of what Q did was for a warning, he kept trying to explain to Picard and the Federation that you can't go exploring space if you aren't prepaired for things like him or worse out there. It's the one of the main reasons he put on the trial to begin with. Q wouldn't have spun the Enterprise into the DQ to encounter the Borg if Picard hadn't scoffed at the idea that there are evils in the galaxy they aren't ready for. He didn't do it to hurt them, he did it to warn them. The Borg already assimilated the Hansens, they were already looking for more humans. The events in the flashbacks in "Dark Frontier" caused Wolf 359, not "Q-Who?"
Q has control over time & space, life & death.
The Enterprise crew was never in any danger he couldn't fix nor was he holding up anything he could make right with a snap of his fingers.
This is a Q we're talking about.
Q is as harmful to Picard as ther Great Gadzo was to Fred Flintstone.
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Except in the episode he was powerless or the two episodes he was trying to execute humanity for being a savage child race?
....and yet by the end "snap, snap", everything is right as rain. He even put the comet back in orbit and not a hair was harmed on anyones head.
Wonderful logic. "It's for your own good!"
A. That was a horrible ret-con B. there's nothing in TNG to indicate that's so, which is what we have to judge Picard on. And even so, people still died in Q-Who, and there's no denying Locutus had a hand in Wolf 359.
I'm sure when you're responsible for 1000 people it must be a real consolation that your life is in the hands of an whimsically irresponsible omnipotent being who seems to love using fear and violence to teach you "lessons." I love Q and think his episodes were some of TNG's best, but it's silly to ridicule Picard for being hostile towards him.
A further retcon in "Regeneration" suggests that the Hansens' encounters with the Borg ultimately stemmed from Picard's handling of the attempted disruption of first contact. While that doesn't make "Q Who?" the cause of Wolf 359, it does render it again Picard's responsibility - without needing to consider Locutus.
Somewhat off topic, but do we ever see evidence of Q being a telepath, other than his repeated claim of omnipotence? I can't honestly recall any circumstances where he actually read the thoughts of someone he was in contact with.
It may be true that the Enterprise crew were never in any danger that Q could not fix. But that doesn't mean he always did fix things. The lives that were lost in "Q Who?" stayed lost. He didn't bring them back to life with the snap of a finger. In fact, Picard comments that the lesson could have been learned without that loss of life, and Q scoffs at him and says that he needs to be able to handle a little "bloody nose."
So Picard does have reason to believe that Q can be much more than just a nuisance.
But because it was Picard, whose history and obsession with the Borg is directly attributable to Q - it's Q's fault again!
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