Spoilers The Flash - Season 3

[Phoenix219]

I hate loops like this. They can't just appear. I don't care what kind of physics nonsense is techno-babbled.... it may appear like a loop now but there has to be some unseen original timeline. I can usually reverse engineer what must have happened in the original to bring about what we are seeing, but this one is so convoluted, its hurting my brain to think about...

They are missing a great chance to draw the entire seasonal narrative together, by having this be original timeline Barry Allen, the time remnant from last season, or the Barry who lost everything when Flashpoint was restored.

They are being very unclear on what exact Flashpoint affected that allowed this to happen.

Can't they stop Savitar by just refusing to make the time remnants this time around? Or by being nice to the time remnant? The time travel in this is just plain wonky. Any of my aforementioned versions of Barry would have had a solid starting point, that could be blamed on our Barry, with no loops, and just as good motivation.

In fact, by losing his memories, Savitar not only should have not only forgotten stuff, but blinked out of existence. A new untethered Barry with a clean new future and no baggage should have changed the timeline by existing. That would have been quite a moral dilemma for Iris to have.... having her choose to restore a timeline that has her dying just to get her Barry back could have been powerful.


This is making Heroes time travel look easy to figure out. (someone mentioned the show earlier in the thread) .... I still stand by the only truly bad arc being Season 3A. I give 2 a pass over the writers strike. 1 was brilliant, and 3B and 4 were pretty solid. I had so many ideas for a 5th season .... Heroes was the show that brought me back to TV lol.

 

[Christopher]

I hate loops like this. They can't just appear. I don't care what kind of physics nonsense is techno-babbled.... it may appear like a loop now but there has to be some unseen original timeline.

In fact, the laws of physics do allow for time loops that cause themselves. It's called the Novikov Self-Consistency Principle -- really the only kind of time travel that's allowed to exist (barring the creation of parallel timelines) is a self-causing loop. The classic example is a ball that goes through a wormhole into the past and then knocks itself into the wormhole. That's perfectly allowable mathematically -- Novikov's paper actually shows the equations -- because the interaction is internally consistent and doesn't conflict with itself (as it would if the ball knocked itself away from the wormhole and thereby altered its own past -- common in fiction, but impossible in real physics unless there's a split timeline involved, with both versions happening rather than one replacing the other).

Sure, our common sense tells us there should be an "original" timeline from "before" the time travel, but our common sense is based on everyday experience where time and causality go in only one direction, so it doesn't work when applied to something more exotic like backward time travel. Common sense applied to uncommon events is almost always wrong. (For instance, common sense tells us that if you let go of something you're holding, it will fall toward your feet, but that's false if you're in free fall in outer space. Common sense is based on a limited set of conditions and breaks down when those conditions are altered.)

Can't they stop Savitar by just refusing to make the time remnants this time around?

He could create enough of a danger for civilians that the Flash would have no choice but to use that tactic to fight him.

Or by being nice to the time remnant?

Would they let the remnant marry Iris? Or do Barry's job at CCPD? As long as the real Barry exists, the remnant is going to feel left out of his life.

In fact, by losing his memories, Savitar not only should have not only forgotten stuff, but blinked out of existence. A new untethered Barry with a clean new future and no baggage should have changed the timeline by existing.

I dunno... He fell for Iris again pretty quickly, so even without his other memories, his grief at her death would probably drive him in a similar direction.

 

[Phoenix219]

But with no memories, it should break the (impossible) time loop that (shouldn't) exist anyways - *theoretical guesswork physics that have NOTHING to do with reality notwithstanding.* Math can be manipulated to show just about anything - nothing will ever convince me that something that nonsensical is possible in our solid physical 3D reality. The idea that space and time are connected (and that time is anything more then a manmade measurement of natural change based on cycles we can record) is nothing but a theory. It doesn't even make sense in *reality* let alone as a narrative construct in a fictional show. If they never make the time remnants then Savitar should just blink out of existance as the events that created him never come to be.

To be honest, there is no way of even telling which is a time remnant and which is the real Barry Allen. Neither has more claim to being the dominant Barry then the other. Honestly, the real solution here is to find a world in the multiverse that just lost its own Barry Allen, and let the double go there - a page from Rick and Morty. Anything that is true of Tom Riker and Transporter Clones is true of Barry and time remnants. The time remnant did not deserve this at all. But thats also why it makes no sense to be a loop of self creation, rather then being created by things like former alternate timelines and outside meddling at some point previous to what we see on screen. Or making him to stop a threat, only to see him outlive his usefulness. This could have been done without a nonsensical loop.

 

[Snaploud]

To be honest, there is no way of even telling which is a time remnant and which is the real Barry Allen. Neither has more claim to being the dominant Barry then the other.

Don't forget the scar of evil.

#Supermodel+Superpowers+Scar=Supervillain

 

[Phoenix219]

Don't forget the scar of evil.

#Supermodel+Superpowers+Scar=Supervillain

I meant in that original few moments after the duplication and before the scar or any personality differences would have diverged....

The scar doesn't always mean evil, though. On Heroes, it was just the signifier of Peter's badass future self.

 

[Tosk]

Caitlin has anger and abandonment issues that stemmed from her relationship with her mother. The powers are not the problem. Caitlin is.

Then why does her switch get set to evil when her powers are activated?

 

[Snaploud]

I meant in that original few moments after the duplication and before the scar or any personality differences would have diverged....

The scar doesn't always mean evil, though. On Heroes, it was just the signifier of Peter's badass future self.

Good counter-example. I am being facetious about the scar thing, of course. I agree that scar Barry is just as real as the other Barry, which is why I think Savitar is more interested in getting friends and family than he has stated so far. He just wants to control time to allow himself what he believes would be the perfect life.

I'm prepared to be wrong, though. I just don't like Cisco's analogy to Savitar being a transporter accident splitting Barry into good and evil. It's much more interesting if this really is a true Barry Allen and not some weird quirk of physics. And I find it more realistic that an alternate Barry would try to rewrite the reality of his friends and family than that he wouldn't care if they were permanently destroyed.

 

[Tuskin38]

trailer for the last few episodes.

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[Phoenix219]

Then why does her switch get set to evil when her powers are activated?

It either changes her brain chemistry inherently, or its a symptom of a psychological disorder. Not to keep on my Heroes kick of late, but the girl with the super strength had no idea that she had abilities - she developed a bad ass alter ego to use it, because psychologically she coudln't handle pain, life OR the super power initially. Could be some combination of those tropes for Caitlyn.

Good counter-example. I am being facetious about the scar thing, of course. I agree that scar Barry is just as real as the other Barry, which is why I think Savitar is more interested in getting friends and family than he has stated so far. He just wants to control time to allow himself what he believes would be the perfect life.

I'm prepared to be wrong, though. I just don't like Cisco's analogy to Savitar being a transporter accident splitting Barry into good and evil. It's much more interesting if this really is a true Barry Allen and not some weird quirk of physics. And I find it more realistic that an alternate Barry would try to rewrite the reality of his friends and family than that he would truly want them dead.

The ends justify the means.... the same was true for Parallax Hal Jordan, before they retconned it. He was willing to go to horrifying lengths, because to him, none of it was real, and it would all be un done, and made perfect, as soon as he got to finish his quest. None of the carnage he was inflicting would matter, once he undid it all.

Literally no difference between the time duplicates makes this a much deeper philosophical issue then the show will likely address. He definitely wasn't "less real" or an "abberation."

 

[Tosk]

It either changes her brain chemistry inherently, or its a symptom of a psychological disorder.

I guess I could almost go for that. What I don't get it the gang just assuming that she'd turn bad if she got her powers. I may be misremembering, but it always seemed like they just assumed that from the get-go.

I guess I'm just not a fan of characters turning evil "because of stuff". Sometimes it's earned and works well, other times it just feels like a cop out.

 

[Phoenix219]

If this episode was done earlier in the season, it would have been downright hilarious to have the lack of memories put Savitar out of commission for a couple episodes, and have a mini arc where Wally is the Flash and he trains hyperactive immature inexperienced new speedster Bart Allen....

 

[Snaploud]

I think we missed out by having Savitar stuck in his suit (and not interacting with anybody except, briefly, Killer Frost) during the amnesia. It would have been funny to see two amnesiac Barry Allens interact with one another, and Team Flash would have had to argue whether or not to (try to) kill the amnesiac with the scar. I suspect non-scar amnesiac Barry would try to keep scar amnesiac Barry safe from Team Flash.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Savatar loses his memories, but he doesn't lose his scars, or outright vanish?

Memory reconfigures first, but eventually physical reality reconfigures too, to match the new history.

 

[Phoenix219]

I think we missed out by having Savitar stuck in his suit (and not interacting with anybody except, briefly, Killer Frost) during the amnesia. It would have been funny to see two amnesiac Barry Allens interact with one another, and Team Flash would have had to argue whether or not to (try to) kill the amnesiac with the scar. I suspect non-scar amnesiac Barry would try to keep scar amnesiac Barry safe from Team Flash.

What a missed opportunity.

To show that without their memories, Savitar was just as goofy and stupid and harmless as real Barry.

Have Killer Frost be the one that restored the memories to bring back Savitar.



By the way, how did no one know that Barry was Savitar, if (by the future) they would have all known there was a time remnant that they shunned in some sort? What did they THINK happened to that time remnant, anyways??

Just had a thought of the cloning Arnold movie Sixth Day, with the clone watching the real family, realizing that he is actually a clone. Did Team Flash even KNOW that a remnant survived? And if not, they couldn't have shunned him. Is this all just because of the time remnant being insecure?? lmfao.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The time remnant that survives the final battle, where Savatar is thrown into the... How is a bazooka a trap? Is Tracy building a completely different weapon to dispose of Savatar? The time remnant that survives the final battle, where Savatar is thrown into the Speedforce, isn't supposed to happen for another 4 years when Tracy is supposed to invent the Speedforce bazooka, and not a couple weeks from "now" so Barry could never invent the same Time Remnant that will grow up into Savatar.

Wait? Something is Hinky.

The Savatar who claws his way out of the Speed, and throws Wally in, 5 or 6 weeks ago, and then is then still now the current Version of Savatar who arching Barry, is going to live his life forward to kill Iris, and then 4 years later get bazooked by Tracy into the speed force and claw his way out 5 or 6 weeks ago and throw Wally in to the speed force again for the first time.

That's the loop.

Round and round.

No beginning, and no end.

Um?

Why does Savatar think that he is a Time remnant of Barry? Even if the Barry Time Remnant that survived the final battle, did run around through time setting up the church of Savitar, they can't be the same person unless we are believing in someone's bullshit that we shouldn't be.

(If the speed force and the quantum force are the same two things, is anyone else thinking of Monarch?

Unless Savatar, rather than getting tricked into getting shot by a speed force bazooka that he knows all about about front ways and back to front, Savatar switches places with the surviving Time remnant Barry from 2020, and lives the remnants life, as he is the older self of the remnant from 2020?

 

[Gaith]

Well, that was an unexpectedly delightful episode. Tons of gold comedy moments with Happy Barry, HR having to bite his tongue in not telling Tracy her "Speed Force Gun" name sucked, and then an almost verbatim (maybe even verbatim) "I need my pain!" quote, complete with Trek reference up front. I haven't minded the grimdark of this season as much as many, but this lighthearted stuff was a real blast. Happy Barry jokingly acting grimdark, and in so doing just nailing Real Barry, to Iris' resigned dismay, was also excellent.

Speaking of Iris, taking away Barry's memory of them being quasi-siblings does wonders for their chemistry. And then that speech of hers at the end essentially retcons them into shared trauma survivors? Okayyy...

(And was that moment with Barry and an unusually likable Wally the show's first-ever acknowledgement that the Wests happen to be black?)

I don't understand why the time force just allows Savitar to run around messing with time, where are the dam Time Wraiths?

Did they read the script? They must have read the script, and know it all turns out okay.

There it is!
​

By the way, how did no one know that Barry was Savitar, if (by the future) they would have all known there was a time remnant that they shunned in some sort? What did they THINK happened to that time remnant, anyways??

It's official: in every timeline, Barry is always the worst.

 

[Phoenix219]

I think Savitar is so fast that he can outrun the Time Wraiths. The Dark side of the force is powerful.... yet touching that kind of power level scarred him. He needs the suit to run that fast. He seems to be off the wraith's radar by this point. They gave up.

 

[Phoenix219]

So we're never going to see young(er) Savitar show up in the future, cause trouble, and get locked up in the Speed Force.... but I can't help but wonder if, the very first time this ever happened, was Iris still alive? He doesn't kill Iris until he gets out of the speed force, yet he needed Flashpoint for that. Before Flashpoint, was he still locked in the speedforce? How did that go down? Why did Barry make a time remnant THAT time, before the loop started? Was Savitar even *Barry* at that point? What did Flashpoint have to do with anything?

I keep trying to figure out the dynamics of this whole thing and its just making my head hurt more.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Actually a time remnant of Savatar should still show up in 2020 to fight the final battle. Everytime that Savatar jumps into the speed force, he is protected from alterations to the timeline, and will arrive in every manifestation of the timeline that has been generated by errant time travellers forking the universe.

Which is not something that the writers, I believe, will chose to observe, since it that was true, infinite numbers of travellers would be crashing into a single planet, and the universe would blow up.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

There is no Savitar without Flashpoint.
He needed FP to get out of the speedforce to create himself.
From his POV FP always happened.

But there is a problem with the time remnant origin.
If the time remnant becomes Savitar for future Barry and trap in the speedforce, the one that comes out after FO needs to go somewhere.
Unless time is so wobbly-wobbly that the time remnant merges with older Savitar in the speed force so there is no older or younger Savitar.
It's always the same Savitar and he has no age because he repeats the loop indefinitely.

Only now Barry manages to break the loop and erase Savitar entirely from existence.
From Barry's POV Savitar is really nothing but an abberation, an anomaly that ceases to exist at some point.
Kind of fitting as a consequence of Flashpoint that something weird like that happens because Barry reallyreally broke time this time.