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Spoilers The Flash - Season 3

You may want a writing staff turnover.
Well yeah, or have the current ones do a better job.
Cool.
And "Heroes" was never as good as this show, as far as I'm concerned.
I agree. But it also experienced a massive nose-dive, which is why I mentioned it.
If you don't like the show, stop watching it.
No kidding? Didn't I pretty much say that?
Unless you're like one of those STAR WARS Prequel bashers who constantly complain about how much they dislike the 1999-2005 movies, yet they keep talking about it and watching it.
A negative view has as much right to air as a positive one.
The Flash is still the most entertaining Berlanti show, in my opinion.
I agree.

Has anyone in the show ever explained why Caitlin is just automatically evil when she gets her powers? If they have I must have missed it. Anyone help me out? Heck, I'd take a convincing fan-excuse at this point.
 
Hate-Watching is amazing if you can find a product that you hate just rightly.

Andromeda is a perfect example.

I can't get through one of those, without saying "Screw you Sorbo!" twice.

Her show about angels flopped.

Can Patty come back now?

Maybe that will fix Savatar?

Give'im a girlfriend. ;)

Ah.

Shantel is busy with Shooter, which I do not watch, which has been renewed.
 
I suppose it would be a combination of Flashpoint and Spear of Destiny. I referenced Spear of Destiny because, as you also point out, Savitar would be risking his own existence by bringing his parents back using normal time travel rules. The Spear of Destiny was a plotline used to allow Thawne to rewrite time in such a way that also solidified his existence. Savitar would need some way to really mess with the force of time to get living parents and also stay alive.

The flaw there is that if Savitar simply wanted to change history, he could've done so already at any time and the show's current timeline wouldn't even exist. As Cisco explained with his drawing, after Savitar was created, he went back into history and created the myth of himself as the first speedster, and the cult of acolytes that follow him. He's already been manipulating the past for centuries, objective time, and he hasn't brought back Barry's parents. So we can definitively rule that out as his objective.

What Savitar wants is to preserve the history that led to his creation. His existence is a closed loop where he brings himself into being, and he's making sure it plays out as (from his perspective) it did before. He's not motivated by love, purely by narcissism. That's why he wants to destroy the person Bary loves most. He's the spawn of a Barry Allen who's deadened himself to love.



Can someone write a concise version of Savitar's creation because I'm still really confused. Was this the remnant that helped Barry defeat Zoom?

No, that was just an example to remind the audience what time remnants are.

Savitar's creation is a causality loop -- what's popularly called a "predestination paradox," even though it isn't really a paradox because it's consistent within itself. Basically:

Savitar kills Iris.
Flash is so driven to defeat Savitar that he creates a bunch of time remnants to fight him (i.e. loops back on his own recent past to duplicate himself).
Savitar kills all time remnants except one.
Flash traps Savitar in the speed force.
Remnant Barry is rejected by Barry's friends, grows bitter and isolated on top of the grief he already feels about Iris.
Remnant Barry goes insane in his isolation, decides to declare himself a god named Savitar (after Savitr, the Hindu god of motion).
Savitar goes back in time and creates his cult.
Cult endures over centuries.
Come 2016, the cult and the possessed Julian work to bring Savitar to Earth.
Savitar is freed onto Earth.
Savitar kills Iris. Cycle repeats.

Okay, it's confusing in that Savitar was already imprisoned in the Speed Force before he was put there, but it's a timeless realm so causality is screwed up.


Has anyone in the show ever explained why Caitlin is just automatically evil when she gets her powers? If they have I must have missed it. Anyone help me out? Heck, I'd take a convincing fan-excuse at this point.

They haven't addressed it, but I figure it's supposed to be something to do with her powers making her "cold" inside, shutting down her capacity to care about others. Like Mr. Freeze's line in Batman: TAS's "Heart of Ice": "I'm beyond emotions. They've been frozen dead in me." Although that's a metaphor that doesn't make much physiological or psychological sense, but hey, it's fantasy.


By the way, the treatment of Tracy and her role in building the trap has been inconsistent. When 2024 Barry gave 2017 Barry the hologram disk, he said it contained Tracy's research, which the younger Tracy might be able to decipher. But last week, it didn't seem to have anything more on it that a file and some photographs, and Tracy seemed to come up with the trap idea entirely on her own.

Moreover, this week, she was shown to be able to build the Speed Force Bazooka in a matter of a day or two after having the idea, which is nonsense. Not only is she a theoretical physicist rather than an engineer, so she should have no idea how to turn her equations into a working instrument, but it would take months or years of experimentation and testing to confirm her theories and devise a practical application.
 
I understand that Savitar is the result of a causality loop. Not exactly clear why that loop exists now and did not before Flashpoint. They keep referring to it as the cause of this. Before Barry created Flashpoint there was no Savitar and Barry and Iris were married in 2024.
 
I understand that Savitar is the result of a causality loop. Not exactly clear why that loop exists now and did not before Flashpoint. They keep referring to it as the cause of this. Before Barry created Flashpoint there was no Savitar and Barry and Iris were married in 2024.

Flashpoint changed the timeline and caused many things, large and small, to be different. There isn't always a direct linear connection between one and the other; it's just the butterfly effect, ripples propagating through time and having all sorts of unpredictable effects, like Julian being Barry's boss or Cisco's brother dying or Caitlin being a meta.

A part of it is that Savitar was able to use the existence of Flashpoint to engineer his escape (by empowering Wally and manipulating things to the point where Wally released him). So creating Flashpoint created a situation that allowed Savitar to exist. It's like the anthropic principle. Why does our universe have physical laws that allow life to exist? Because if it didn't, we wouldn't be here to ask the question. Out of all the possible universes, we can only exist in one that allows us to exist. The post-Flashpoint Earth-1 timeline has conditions that allow Savitar to exist; therefore, that's the timeline where he exists.
 
Okay, it's confusing in that Savitar was already imprisoned in the Speed Force before he was put there, but it's a timeless realm so causality is screwed up.

I think it's more complicated than that: There are 2 stages in Savitar's existance, before (young Savitar) and after (Old Savitar) he is trapped in the Speedforce

Near Future Flash is so driven to defeat Young Savitar that he creates a bunch of time remnants to fight him (i.e. loops back on his own recent past to duplicate himself).
Young Savitar kills all time remnants except one.
Flash traps Young Savitar in the speed force.
Remnant Barry is rejected by Barry's friends, grows bitter and isolated on top of the grief he already feels about Iris.
Remnant Barry goes insane in his isolation, decides to declare himself a god named Savitar (after Savitr, the Hindu god of motion).
Very Young Savitar goes back in time and creates his cult (this might take a while), then returns to the future post 2017
Cult endures over centuries.
Come 2016, the cult and the possessed Julian work to bring Savitar to Earth.
Old Savitar is freed onto Earth.
Old Savitar kills Iris. We don't know what happens to him after this.
Young Savitar returns from the past, and Barry creates time remnants to Stop him.

This leaves us with a Old Savitar still free, Unless he merges with his younger self at some point before Young Savitar is Trapped in the Speedforce. But he wouldn't do that because he knows the his younger self is going to get trapped soon.
 
Christopher is not getting it.

Savatar was safe from Flashpoint in the past, while messing with the past before Nora's death, inside and outside of the speed force... Then SUDDENLY... Nora doesn't die. Fuck, fuck, fuck... Barry Allen never becomes the Flash, and never inspires Thawne to become the Reverse Flash. Savatar is screwed. He can never be born because the universe is completely wrong. As soon as he reaches the moment where Barry doesn't invent a time remnant (who is him) to throw his other-other self into the speed force, as Barry prime dies, Savatar is a paradox and poof, like Thawne went poof when Eddie popped himself.

Savatar needed close enough to the original timeline back, so definitely not Flash Point, to be born, which is what he got.
 
I understand that Savitar is the result of a causality loop. Not exactly clear why that loop exists now and did not before Flashpoint. They keep referring to it as the cause of this. Before Barry created Flashpoint there was no Savitar and Barry and Iris were married in 2024.

I am thinking it is because Flashpoint and undoing it is part of the timeline that our Barry is from. So Flashpoint is part of the timeline that created Savatar.

My Review:
Overall, I really loved this episode. The character moments were fantastic. I especially loved the "speedsters can become gods when they reject love" speech between Barry and Iris. I loved the idea that we are defined a lot by both the bad and good memories together. I also loved the scene where Cisco tells the story about Ronnie to KF. I also loved the scene with Joe and Iris talking about "happy Barry". I loved the scene where Julian tells KF that he loves her and she says that she never loved any of them but we see her eyes briefly turn back to normal. Obviously, Caitlin is still there just being suppressed. Just a lot of great character moments.

It was great seeing KF working with Team Flash even if it was just a short term arrangement. It makes me think that the writers are definitely heading in this direction with the character where she will remain a baddie but work with Team Flash from time to time when it suits her goals. I just absolutely love this version of Killer Frost. She is sexy, beautiful and naughty!

Again, I feel like this Savatar arc really works for Barry's character development. We've seen Barry go to extremes when his parents died. So exploring how his character could go full dark side if he suffers another tragedy and he gives in to it, is fitting for the character. This idea is expressed perfectly in Barry's "speedsters can become gods" speech to Iris. And, there are some great thematic parallels between Barry and Caitlin. Both have darkness in them from past tragedy. Both have the potential to become evil. But Barry and Caitlin are dealing with that darkness in fundamentally opposite ways. Barry is resisting his darkness and trying to fight and defeat his evil alter ego. And he is relying on his friends who love him. Caitlin is embracing her darkness and trying to get rid of the good inside her. And she is pushing away the people who love her and are trying to help her.

There was some good humor in this episode, especially with Barry's amnesia. It was nice to see happy Barry. The scene in Jitters between Barry and Iris was wonderful. The scenes with Tracy and HR kinda bogged the episode down a bit.

I kinda wished they could have used Mick Rory as the arsonist. He brings such style and flair to the character that it would have made his appearance in the episode that much better. It was kinda obvious that the writers basically made up a Mick Rory clone to feel the spot. Heat Monger is a Mick Rory wannabe, looked like him, acted like him, but just plain vanilla without Mick's flair.

The Bart references seems to be a deliberate comic book reference. I wonder if the writers are planning on bringing in the Bart Allen character from the comics who was Barry and Iris' grandson from the future.

Overall, this episode shows why The Flash is my favorite Berlantiverse show. It strikes a good balance between the superhero campiness of Legends and the serious tone of Arrow. It combines epic superhero action with really genuine and poignant character moments.
 
The Bart references seems to be a deliberate comic book reference. I wonder if the writers are planning on bringing in the Bart Allen character from the comics who was Barry and Iris' grandson from the future.

I've been wondering if they'd resolve the Iris-death arc the way it was done once in the comics, with Iris appearing to die but actually taking refuge with her descendants in the future for a while.
 
Or here's another thought -- what if they outwit Savitar?
If Barry can go back in time and create a time remnant of himself, he could take Iris with him and create a time remnant of her too. Then Savitar kills the remnant while the real Iris is hidden safely away, and it's all just a trap to get Savitar in position for the Speed Force Bazooka. That's why Cisco's vibe of the future shows HR on the roof holding the Bazooka when Iris is killed.
 
Savatar's memories change every time Barry tries to change the future.

That doesn't mean that Wally hasn't already done that though.
 
Heat Monger

"Hi everybody, happy friday!" is the lamest supervillain entrance ever. :D

Can someone write a concise version of Savitar's creation because I'm still really confused.

The people who wrote this are probably just as confused as you are. ;)

This was an unexpectedly lighthearted episode and I enjoyed it very much after I turned off the part of my brain that processes temporal mechanics.

Is the Speed Force Bazooka that thing HR had on the roof in the future?
 
My issue with the episode is they sure let Killer Frost go easily. I mean hell, trhey are trying to CHANGE events - so you'd think they'd have tried something rather than - "Okay, bye".

My favorite exchange:
Cisco: "You do have 'Star Trek' on your world, right?"
HR: "Voyager."
Cisco: "I hate spin offs."
 
My issue with the episode is they sure let Killer Frost go easily. I mean hell, trhey are trying to CHANGE events - so you'd think they'd have tried something rather than - "Okay, bye".

She was ready to fight them if they tried to stop her. That's not a battle they probably wanted to have right in their headquarters, not after the damage she caused the last time. Besides, maybe letting her reflect on the things Cisco said, and the experience of working with her old friends again, would have more effect in the long run than just trying to capture her.
 
Caitlin was affected by working with them again. Her eyes faded for a few seconds in the elevator.

thought probably more from Cisco's reminder her of the things they had done together than her actually working with them (which was purely an means to an end).
 
thought probably more from Cisco's reminder her of the things they had done together than her actually working with them (which was purely an means to an end).

Sure, in intent, it was a means to an end. But it would still have been a reminder of better times, whether she consciously admitted it or not. There's always more than one layer.
 
She was ready to fight them if they tried to stop her. That's not a battle they probably wanted to have right in their headquarters, not after the damage she caused the last time. Besides, maybe letting her reflect on the things Cisco said, and the experience of working with her old friends again, would have more effect in the long run than just trying to capture her.

Yes, and maybe letting her go might show her that they are not hostile towards her and maybe, just maybe, soften her up to them. After all, what's more likely to get her to come around, attacking her and locking her up against her will or letting her go but letting her know that they care and will help her if she choose of her own free will to come back to them? The fact that her eyes briefly turned back to normal when she was leaving, indicates that it might have worked, even for just a brief moment.
 
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as anyone in the show ever explained why Caitlin is just automatically evil when she gets her powers? If they have I must have missed it. Anyone help me out? Heck, I'd take a convincing fan-excuse at this point.

Caitlin has anger and abandonment issues that stemmed from her relationship with her mother. The powers are not the problem. Caitlin is.
 
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