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Spoilers The Flash - Season 3

If Savatar was an aberrant or a remnant, then Savatar wouldn't have lost his memory earlier this week when "our" Barry did.

Barry has to disconnect from Savatar, and make his existence completely impossible, more so than having amnesia forever didn't.
 
But with no memories, it should break the (impossible) time loop that (shouldn't) exist anyways - *theoretical guesswork physics that have NOTHING to do with reality notwithstanding.*

Theoretical physics is not "guesswork." It's mathematics. It's figuring out the equations that explain how known phenomena work and using them to make testable predictions about new situations. It's grounded in what we know to be true. The theoretical work that's been done in temporal physics is extrapolated from the General Theory of Relativity, whose predictions have been confirmed by every experiment that's been conducted for the past hundred years. We know General Relativity is correct; the GPS in your phone and your car depends on its principles (because the slight relativistic discrepancy between the flow of time in different GPS satellites and your own device's clock is part of the data the system uses to calculate their relative position and motion). Its equations are among the most solidly, consistently proven ones in all of physics. So it's simply a matter of taking those equations, applying them to new conditions, and calculating the results.

It's the same with quantum physics. There's no guesswork there either; it's another set of equations that's been confirmed by a century or more of experiment and observation. Quantum principles are also the basis of a lot of everyday technology, including the screen you're reading this on, the transistors and semiconductors in the computer it's attached to, and the fluorescent light bulb that may well be illuminating your room. These are solidly verified laws that are known to work, and understanding them lets us predict, not guess, how they will apply in a new situation.

This is why science is such a powerful tool -- because all the universe obeys the same physics, so you can learn about one aspect of it by studying other aspects. So you're not limited to mere guesswork.


The idea that space and time are connected (and that time is anything more then a manmade measurement of natural change based on cycles we can record) is nothing but a theory.

That same old layperson's myth that "theory" means "unproven idea." No. A hypothesis is an unproven idea. A theory is a systematic explanation for a series of observed data, one that makes testable predictions allowing it to be confirmed or refuted. A fact is merely a single observation; a theory is a larger system that explains why the facts are the way they are. The existence of, say, gravity or evolution is an observed fact; a theory of gravitation or evolution is a testable model that explains how and why it works. We have color theory and music theory, but that does not mean the existence of color and music is mere speculation. Theories explain the workings of things that are known to be real. Theories help us understand the facts better and learn how to use them to our advantage. The General Theory of Relativity gave us GPS; quantum theory gave us modern electronics. "Nothing but a theory?" Bull. Theory is what lets us use knowledge constructively and practically. It's only by understanding how things work that we can understand how to do new things with them.

Heck, common sense is a theory. It's the theory that everyday experience should apply everywhere. But that theory has been refuted by a wealth of hard data. Gravity in space doesn't behave the way common sense tells us to expect. Time is affected by motion and gravity in ways common sense would consider impossible. All of this has been proven by direct experiment and observation, not mere guesswork. We wouldn't even be having this electronic conversation if the physical principles I'm discussing here weren't proven and reliable.


Now, just to be clear, I'm certainly not saying that the time-travel mechanics portrayed on The Flash are in any way credible. Most of what they're showing here is pure nonsense. The very idea that history can be changed at all is pure nonsense, and a logical contradiction. But the specific idea of a time loop, of an event being its own cause, is actually one that makes perfect physical sense. What doesn't make sense is the idea of an "original" timeline being "replaced" by time travel. That's gibberish. There are only two time-travel outcomes that make physical sense (other than the most likely one that time travel is impossible altogether): One, a fixed timeline where the traveler's actions in the past are already part of their pre-existing history, and two, a branching timeline where the traveler creates an alternate branch that occurs alongside the original history without replacing it. So most time-travel fiction is pure fantasy. But time-loop stories are one of the few exceptions, however counterintuitive that may seem.
 
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By definition, theoretical MEANS unproven guesses that are and can not be proven true. That is why they are THEORIES and not FACTS. We have been building on guesswork framework for decades. Then we set out to prove what we think we know, even though absolutely none of it can be proven. If things don't fit the model, they are thrown out, while more guesswork is patched onto the original theory to keep it going. Almost everything we think we know is made up of *guesswork.*

The work of engineers making things that work with cause and effect in real 3D space has absolutely nothing to do with the underlying theories of unprovable things that we are guessing about in the depths of space, or in the annals of the past.

We don't know half of what we think we do.
 
By definition, theoretical MEANS unproven guesses that are and can not be proven true.

Sorry, no. That's the lay definition, which is completely different from the scientific definition, a fact that unfortunately creates confusion among laypeople. In science, a theory is what I said -- a systematic model that posits an explanation for a set of observed data and makes predictions that can be tested to assess the validity of the theory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory


That is why they are THEORIES and not FACTS.

A theory is much bigger than a fact. A "fact" (a lay term that has no meaning in science) is merely an observed data point -- e.g. "An apple falls out of a tree" or "A planet moves through the sky on a certain path." A theory, such as Newton's Theory of Universal Gravitation, is the larger model that ties those facts together and explains their common underlying cause -- e.g. "Masses are attracted to other masses by a force described by this set of equations." The advantage of fitting isolated facts into a larger theory is that the theory makes predictions beyond the existing facts, and that lets us test those predictions and find out if the theory is valid or not. If the predictions are inaccurate, we refine or replace the theory until we have one that explains those new facts (like how Einstein's General Theory of Relativity replaced Newton's gravitational theory, or rather, showed that Newton's theory was merely an approximation of how Einstein's theory applied in a limited range of conditions) -- and that new theory makes new predictions that can in turn be tested to lead to even more new discoveries and insights.

Put another way, "facts" are like points on a graph -- you measure them and note down where they fall. A theory is like the equation describing a curve that passes through all those points. Different equations give different possible curves that those points could be part of -- and by letting you calculate the whole curve, it lets you predict where new points would fall. By measuring those points and seeing which curve they coincide with, you can rule out the curves that don't fit. And if all your measurements fit a particular curve no matter how many you take, then it's reasonable to conclude that that's the right curve and that its equation is probably a correct prediction of the points you haven't measured yet. Sure, there's a finite chance it could be wrong, but there's no reason to assume that until you get data that doesn't fit the theory.


We have been building on guesswork framework for decades. Then we set out to prove what we think we know, even though absolutely none of it can be proven.

There is no "proof" in science, no. Proof is used in mathematics, where things can be unambiguously verified. Science merely reports the results of observations and experiments, and whether a theoretical prediction is confirmed or refuted. In physics, there is always a degree of uncertainty, but that does not mean it's mere guesswork. A guess, by definition, is made in the absence of evidence. Scientific conclusions and deductions are formed on the basis of evidence, making them the exact opposite of guesswork. Being less than 100% certain is not the same thing as knowing nothing at all.


The work of engineers making things that work with cause and effect in real 3D space has absolutely nothing to do with the underlying theories of unprovable things that we are guessing about in the depths of space, or in the annals of the past.

That's completely untrue. Everything in the universe follows the same laws. That's the power and wonder of science, the reason why it's so amazingly important -- because it enables us to learn about one thing by studying another thing. I recommend James Burke's TV miniseries (and books) Connections and The Day the Universe Changed, which were very good at showing how a discovery in one aspect of science connected to many other aspects and how intricately it's all interconnected. Both versions of Cosmos, the original Carl Sagan version and the recent Neil DeGrasse Tyson version, are also very good at showing this.


Anyway, I don't know why you're even arguing with me about this. We're talking about a work of fiction presenting a fanciful and mostly absurd version of time travel. The idea was put forth that, conjecturally, there ought to be an "original" unaltered timeline that was changed by time travel. I merely pointed out that the idea of a self-consistent time loop makes more sense than one might expect, because it's mathematically consistent even though it doesn't fit our conventional assumptions about causality. Whether it's physically real isn't even the point. If anything, the most likely physical reality is that time travel is completely impossible and it's a moot point anyway. So this is all a discussion of hypothetical matters. It's a discussion of what's plausible, not what's real. And the fact that there are actual equations demonstrating that a recursive causal time loop, an event causing itself to happen, is mathematically and logically permissible means that such a thing is, in fact, a reasonable conjecture, even if it doesn't seem that way.
 
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Why would HR tell either Flash where they put Iris? I get that Savitar tricked HR into thinking he was Barry, but we already know Savitar has Barry's memories.

Also, why has Barry never warned Cisco about what Killer Frost would do to his (Cisco's) hands?
 
So, we see Barry using HR's face changing gizmo early in the episode. (Almost like they wanted to remind us of it's existence)
Could that end up playing a part in the end of tonight's episode?
 
That comparison that Snart made between seeing King Shark and Jaws I thought was pretty funny.

"They couldn't afford to show it." Very meta.

When was the Waverider in 1892 Siberia? My best guess is that Barry intercepted Snart just after he took Mick into the woods to kill him and couldn't go through with it... although maybe not, because that was at night, I think, and this was in the daytime.

But going with Legends-era Snart was a good choice. He was further along the path to heroism than the 2014-vintage Snart that the Legion of Doom recruited, which not only served this story better, but helped differentiate this "Captain Cold retrieved from the past" story from the one on LoT. Nice to see Captain Cold encouraging Barry to stay true to the better angels of his nature.


Why would HR tell either Flash where they put Iris? I get that Savitar tricked HR into thinking he was Barry, but we already know Savitar has Barry's memories.

Because he's an idiot.

Really, though, Earth-2 was a terrible hiding place anyway -- it probably would've been the first place Savitar looked, since it's not that hard to guess they'd take her there. They should've picked a parallel Earth at random, or something. (Probably best not to drop in on Earth-38 right at the moment...)
 
Shitty plan to steal a dominator power source, VS. Going to Dominator Space/Going back in time to the invasion were there were hundreds of Dominator ships, all with identical batteries VS. Asking Supergirl for help, who has tech from hundreds of worlds at her finger tips VS. TAKE/BORROW THE POWER SOURCE FROM THE WAVERIDER WHICH IS JUST SITTING THERE IN THE BACKGROUND WHEN YOU PICKED UP SNART.
 
Really, though, Earth-2 was a terrible hiding place anyway -- it probably would've been the first place Savitar looked, since it's not that hard to guess they'd take her there. They should've picked a parallel Earth at random, or something. (Probably best not to drop in on Earth-38 right at the moment...)

Agreed. That was a weird choice unless they had something else up their sleeve (which they still might).

The smart move would be for only one ally to know Iris' destination (probably Cisco for practical reasons), and that ally should not return to Earth 1 for at least a few months. Also, the ally should return (after those few months) to a hidden location and only make himself known if he receives a coded signal.
 
The time vault on Earth 2, might still have an identical battery in it, to the battery from the Earth 1 time vault that Thawne used to power his time machine.

Or Earth 3, or Earth 4 or Earth 5, or...

Why didn't Barry just go back in time and work on the construction of the Argus Building, and installing all of it's security?
 
Better question, how did Barry know they were there?

Maybe the Legends told Barry some details of their earlier travels while they were together for the Dominator invasion.


Possibly. But remember Savitar took Iris from Earth-2, when could she have been swapped by an imposter? During the scene where Barry s trying to shoot Savitar?

Well, Team Flash wouldn't let an altenate Iris, or a holographically disguised person, be killed just to save their own Iris. If Barry wouldn't sacrifice Snart or even King Shark to save Iris, he certainly wouldn't sacrifice anyone else.
 
Well they thought the device was going to work.
Perhaps someone did it on their own volition without telling the rest of the team?
 
Well they thought the device was going to work.
Perhaps someone did it on their own volition without telling the rest of the team?

But why would the alternate Iris, or whoever wore the holographic disguise, have gone along with it? Iris clearly knew what was going to happen. An unknowing sacrificial victim couldn't have said the things she said.

I think the solution will be something like how the comics undid Iris's death -- it turned out that her consciousness had been transported to the future by her descendants and put in a cloned body, or something like that.
 
If they went the imposter route: I'm voting for having "Iris" be the Martian Manhunter. Does he have regenerative healing in the Berlantiverse?
 
Dam that ending was :wah: dam.

Next Week's Season Finale Promo

I really hope they keep Iris's death permanent. I know she is a major character but at this point any change seems such a cop out/reset.
 
That episode was great and sad at the same time. Man we kept seeing that scene take place but knowing the context and how hard they tried, it was gut wrenching watching it happen for real. Yeah I fully expect it to be a smoke screen, but with what we got tonight, I got a little emotional.
 
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