Spoilers The Flash - Season 3

[kirk55555]

That was an ok episode. I'm really not liking evil Caitlyn, and Savitar is kind of irritaiting now that he's being evil Barry a lot. But, besides that, it was ok. I liked seeing Earth 2. I'm hoping Iris lives, there is no real reason to kill her off (and I never want to deal with Barry going through a new romance story ever again).

 

[Snaploud]

I wonder if Barry can get Iris back by keeping Savitar from being created in the future. Or would it just mean a time remnant killed her?

 

[sojourner]

"hey, we need to break into a building that dampens metahuman powers"

"Hey, we need a safe place to stash Iris"

Um, first problem solves the second?

Unrelated: if anyone was in a mind set to replace Iris using the transmogrifier, it was HR in his last scene of the show.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The stream coming out of the bazooka.

Old guy with kidney stones and sketchy discharge and irregular flow.

The dregs of a super soaker dribbling out of the nozzle.

Or was that entire scene in slow mo?

PS

Ghost Busters want their proton accelerators back.

 

[Jax]

"hey, we need to break into a building that dampens metahuman powers"

"Hey, we need a safe place to stash Iris"

Um, first problem solves the second?

 

[matthunter]

Haven't seen the ep yet, but if the ARGUS builidng dampens metahuman powers, how come it didn't revert King Shark to a human? Or a shark?

 

[Guy Gardener]

He's not always turning into a shark. He's stuck. It would take a new metamorphic trigger to turn him back to human, which is different.

 

[matthunter]

He's not always turning into a shark. He's stuck. It would take a new metamorphic trigger to turn him back to human, which is different.

So it depends how fine a line is drawn between metahuman powers being "always on" versus "activated"? Is Barry ALWAYS super-fast and just slowing himself down to interact with us slowpokes? Is Killer Frost "switching on" her powers to use them, or is she always KF but just "running idle"?

Seems like the kinda distinction you might wanna work out for a security system, lest a Ben Grimm expy shows up with a grudge.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The dampner is an energy field.

Probably the inverse wave of whatever their metahuman detectors from earth 2 detects.

Or maybe they're just sedating/confusing the part of the brain that controls complex powersets, which regular humans do not use?

 

[Jax]

Surley the damper has to be configured for particular powers because surley all Meta humans get their abilities in different ways? If not why aren't there portable versions of these all over the major cities like Star & Central City. Also would Flash ability to run at such speeds mean he could be in and out before the dampener would effect him?

 

[Kirk Prime]

I thought this episode of Flash was very good. I think it played all the right notes, though of course as with everything, you have to suspend a little disbelief.

For example--if Savitar was a time remnant created by Barry to stop Savitar, then Barry would simply have to not create time remnants to stop Savitar, and Savitar would be stopped.

The counterargument to that is that if Savitar is a time remnant, then stopping his creation would not stop this time remnant.

Of course then you have to question Savitar's comment about how Iris needs to die so Savitar could be born.

I liked how Savitar found out where Iris was, and that they did that scene with HR's guilt.

The characters could have been more creative in hiding Iris. I was saying that they should stash her on another Earth too, but what they should have done is told their team Earth 2, and gone to yet another Earth.

And then time traveled to the past on that Earth.

No one would know where they were.

Regarding the ARGUS subplot, which I liked, especially with Captain Cold, if only Barry had a close friend who was an alien, with access to future technology, that would likely have a power source that could help, and maybe Cisco could vibe them to her world, where Iris would have a protector that should be able to defeat Saivtar by herself.

But again, I can rationalize that by the fact that they were under a lot of stress and pressure and may not have thought of it.

And I just scrolled up, read the point about stashing Iris at ARGUS, and applauded.

Bottom line though, is that if I watch the episode without the nitpicking, and just enjoy the story, and buy into it, it was kind of awesome.

It also took some guts to kill Iris off in the penultimate episode. I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that Barry would have found a way to save her.

To my knowledge, she is not leaving the show. So I will go with the idea that the ending of this episode will not stand. With that in mind, it makes killing Iris this week a very smart decision.

If you think about it, if Iris doesn't die like we saw, then when Barry comes to the future six months ago, he doesn't see Iris die, and doesn't go through everything to save her. By having Savitar succeed, the cycle is complete.

And now we are in the unknown. I'm really looking forward to the finale.

 

[Christopher]

I really hope they keep Iris's death permanent. I know she is a major character but at this point any change seems such a cop out/reset.

I generally don't like cop-out resurrections, but in this case, I hope Iris's death is quickly reversed. Over the past few weeks, we've seen two versions of a Barry broken by too much grief and loss (2024 Barry and Savitar) and a version of Barry unburdened by any grief (amnesiac "Bart"), and I prefer him closer to the latter -- or like he normally is, someone who's endured loss and darkness but still uses it to motivate him to seek the light. Losing Iris -- especially failing to save her when he had so much time to prepare -- would break him too badly, make him too dark and hopeless. We've already seen Oliver go there this season; just getting a taste of it with Barry was enough.

Besides, Candice Patton is gorgeous, so I don't want her leaving the show.

Haven't seen the ep yet, but if the ARGUS builidng dampens metahuman powers, how come it didn't revert King Shark to a human? Or a shark?

I think there's a difference between a power and one's actual anatomy. If he were a shapeshifter who were normally human and could turn into a shark-man, then it's plausible(ish) that damping his power to transform would trap him in human form -- or possibly trap him in shark form if he were already in that state. But he's permanently in shark form. It's his normal physical state now. It's not a "power" any more than my having ten fingers is a power.

 

[Romulan_spy]

Good: Captain Cold is always great. The heist scenes in Argus were great. Captain Cold's advice to Barry at the end was really good. Iris' death scene was very poignant especially with the wedding vows overlap and the music.

Bad: The characters were a bit dumb. If stopping Iris' death was the most important thing ever, why would Cisco go off to fight Killer Frost right when she is about to be killed, instead of helping to save her??? Taking Iris to another Earth was a good idea but why not take extra precautions like not telling anyone on Team Flash or telling Barry a false location to confuse Savatar? Also, did the team forget the lesson from the previous episode about how Savatar remembers everything Barry remembers? Having Barry be the one to shoot the speed force gun means that Savatar will remember doing it and therefore be able to prepare for it. Dumb! Last but not least, since saving Iris is the most important thing ever, why not go all out, recruit speedsters from the multiverse to help, have Gipsy help, etc?

I guess the characters had to be a little dumb in order to make the story arc work. If they had saved Iris now then Savatar would cease to exist and therefore be defeated too soon since he has to be defeated in the finale. So Iris has to die in this episode. It is a classic case of the good guys can't win yet since they have to win at a particular time. Unfortunately, this almost always creates plot holes when the audience sees ways that the good guys could have won sooner.

My thoughts on Iris' future:
I think there are 3 possibilities:
1) Iris stays dead. (unlikely since I am pretty sure the actress is staying as a regular)
2) It was not Iris that Savatar killed. (most likely. I really like the theory that HR used the holographic masking tech to swap placed with Iris so it was HR that died and not her. Barry using the holo masking tech in the heist was a chekov's gun and HR's speech about feeling useless and blaming himself for Iris's death seems like the perfect motivation for him swapping placed with her. Also, Barry had no idea that HR would do that which means Savatar would not have known. And no one on Team Flash knew either so their reactions to Iris' death would have been genuine. The theory works).
3) Barry defeats Savatar in a way that undoes Iris' death. (possible. If Savatar is undone then Iris' death would also be undone. The show likes to use time travel shenanigans so it could happen).

 

[Kirk Prime]

Bad: The characters were a bit dumb. If stopping Iris' death was the most important thing ever, why would Cisco go off to fight Killer Frost right when she is about to be killed, instead of helping to save her??? Taking Iris to another Earth was a good idea but why not take extra precautions like not telling anyone on Team Flash or telling Barry a false location to confuse Savatar? Also, did the team forget the lesson from the previous episode about how Savatar remembers everything Barry remembers? Having Barry be the one to shoot the speed force gun means that Savatar will remember doing it and therefore be able to prepare for it. Dumb! Last but not least, since saving Iris is the most important thing ever, why not go all out, recruit speedsters from the multiverse to help, have Gipsy help, etc?

I like the idea that Iris wasn't killed but there's a problem with that too--if Savatar gets all of Barry's memories, then once Barry finds out, or experiences something, Savitar knows about it. In your scenario, it shouldn't matter if Barry shoots the canon because once the canon is deployed and Barry is there, Savitar knows--no matter who shot it. Either way, Savitar, being from the future, has lived this before either through his own or Barry's eyes. It wouldn't matter if Joe shot the bazooka, and told Barry a week later.

Agreed on not telling Team Flash. But unless Barry and Iris never see each other again, Savitar would find out where Iris was, and snatch her.

Totally agreed on Killer Frost.

 

[Romulan_spy]

I like the idea that Iris wasn't killed but there's a problem with that too--if Savatar gets all of Barry's memories, then once Barry finds out, or experiences something, Savitar knows about it. In your scenario, it shouldn't matter if Barry shoots the canon because once the canon is deployed and Barry is there, Savitar knows--no matter who shot it. Either way, Savitar, being from the future, has lived this before either through his own or Barry's eyes. It wouldn't matter if Joe shot the bazooka, and told Barry a week later.

This gets dicey. Didn't Tracy build this speed force cannon sooner than she did in Savatar's original timeline? So shouldn't its use be new to Savatar? Of course, Savatar would have experienced this new timeline and remembered it since he is in a closed loop? But if Savatar already knows about the speed force cannon then he would be prepared for it, so shouldn't team Flash know that it won't work and try something else? My head hurts trying to figure this out.

Agreed on not telling Team Flash. But unless Barry and Iris never see each other again, Savitar would find out where Iris was, and snatch her.

Well, Iris would have to stay hidden until after Savatar is defeated. Once he is defeated, it would be safe for her and Barry to reunite.

 

[Guy Gardener]

That's why a couple hours before the final fight, Barry lets them plan without him.

Heisenberg.

Every time they use new future information to make their decisions, they change the future, and change Savatars memories, as he's forgetting old memories from each timeline he's no longer from anymore.

There is no predestination. They are actually fighting an infinite number of different Savatar who subtly changes every infinitesimally small unit of time.

 

[Christopher]

Bad: The characters were a bit dumb. If stopping Iris' death was the most important thing ever, why would Cisco go off to fight Killer Frost right when she is about to be killed, instead of helping to save her???

That was kind of contrived, but I liked what it said about Barry's selflessness. He cares about Iris, but he cares about Caitlin too, and he couldn't pass up a chance to try to save her as well.

Last but not least, since saving Iris is the most important thing ever, why not go all out, recruit speedsters from the multiverse to help, have Gipsy help, etc?

I'm still expecting that to happen in the finale.

2) It was not Iris that Savatar killed. (most likely. I really like the theory that HR used the holographic masking tech to swap placed with Iris so it was HR that died and not her.

You mean when Savitar let her fall to the ground? I'm not sure there would've been time or an opportunity to do that without Savitar noticing.

I was going to say it was unlikely because HR is a lot taller than Iris, but I checked IMDb, and it turns out that Grant Gustin is 7 inches taller than Audrey Marie Anderson, while Tom Cavanaugh is 8 inches taller than Candice Patton. So if Barry could impersonate Lyla despite the height difference, I guess it could work for HR and Iris too. But I'm still not convinced he had the opportunity.

 

[Romulan_spy]

You mean when Savitar let her fall to the ground? I'm not sure there would've been time or an opportunity to do that without Savitar noticing.

Most likely not, but it is a TV show. I would not be surprised in the least if the finale does not pull a "surprise! in some contrived way, HR pulled it off and Iris is really alive!"

I am not sure which theory I prefer. Having HR pretend to be Iris would be contrived but the episode seemed to set things up for it. It would be a neat solution I think. The second theory of Barry undoing her death through some time travel trick when he kills Savatar seems too obvious. And it would be a standard time travel reset button. But it would certainly be cool to see. Plus, Barry would remember her dying so there would be an interesting development in his character where he would remember feeling grief for her even though she is now alive. We would get a Barry that has part of the brokenness he had before when she died but without the lasting darkness that pushed him to become Savatar. Finally, seeing her die and then getting her back, would undoubtedly further cement their relationship.

 

[LJones41]

"hey, we need to break into a building that dampens metahuman powers"

"Hey, we need a safe place to stash Iris"

Um, first problem solves the second?

What are you trying to say?

 

[Christopher]

What are you trying to say?

Isn't it obvious? Hide Iris in a place where metahuman powers can't work, and Savitar/Barry can't use his superspeed to get to her, any more than Flash/Barry could use his superspeed to steal the power source.

Although that might not have worked, since Savitar's armor is able to do a lot of things on its own. Even without his speedster powers, Savitar/Barry could probably have used his armor to break into ARGUS and get to Iris.