Stupid Stuff in TNG

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by gakelly, Mar 4, 2019.

  1. Brain Melter

    Brain Melter Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The crew of the Enterprise knew that they were in a time-loop and that there was a time difference between real-time and what they were experiencing. The captain of the Bozeman did not.
     
  2. saladdays

    saladdays Commander Red Shirt

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    We can agree to disagree on how cognizant the Enterprise crew was about the time loop on each separate loop, but you originally said the Bozeman's captain and crew were idiots because they didn't realize something was wrong either. There was not enough dialogue with the captain to come to that conclusion.
     
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  3. Brain Melter

    Brain Melter Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I agree on one thing and that is that we disagree.
     
  4. SpooQy

    SpooQy Admiral Admiral

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    In this universe, humans are flying around in FLT space ships 40 years from today.

    What part, again, of this episode doesn't hold up?
     
  5. SpooQy

    SpooQy Admiral Admiral

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    Correct. You don't open your first Cap'n-to-Cap'n communication with, "You know, some of our crew have felt kinda funny recently in an unspecific way. Oh, btw, a/s/l?"
     
  6. Mojochi

    Mojochi Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    As others have stated, there's no guarantee that both ships had the same passage of time going on as each other, but even foregoing that, who's to say that some on the Bozeman hadn't had the deja vu? It's certainly not something they'd open with in an initial communication with an unfamiliar ship, & it's also possible they'd have been in no position to have done anything about it, or even question it being connected to some anomaly anyhow?

    Ultimately, it wasn't the deja vu that enlightened the D crew about the phenomenon. It was Crusher's voice echo recording, & Geordi's blurry after-images. Both of which might never have been available to the Bozeman crew, one, because they don't have a VISOR, & two, because maybe they had no one quartered in a room aptly positioned to hear the echoes, the way Crusher was. 1 person on a ship of a thousand heard it, & thought to record & examine it with an android's hearing. As much as that episode depends on Data being able to send a message to himself, it also worked out through the sheer luck of Beverly being in the right spot at the right time. They survived that one in large part on luck, & the Bozeman maybe didn't get any of that luck
     
  7. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    IMHO the story holds together very well at every possible level, leaving open just enough questions to allow for interpretations that satisfy everybody. Apparently not, though.

    Anyway...

    1) The E-D is caught in a loop about a day long. It does not follow that the Bozeman would be caught in a loop of that length. The Bozeman is only looping in the 24th century, where she is within the influence of the (spatially quite limited) anomaly that resets the clock whenever the E-D blows up. She only arrives to that location and time once.
    2) We don't know exactly how many loops the E-D went through, but we know she spent only 17.4 days in total in those loops, as counted by "outside observers" (a timekeeping net outside the influence of the Typhon Expanse anomaly - compare to #1 for why the Bozeman would not be looping in the 23rd century). So the odds for noticing the deja vu phenomena aren't incredibly low or anything - you are cued in after less than a dozen loops. That is, assuming the loops are a day long and allow you to fumble with glasses of water and whatnot. They weren't that long for the Bozeman.

    Other odds and ends:

    3) The dozen or so loops would appear to result in a dozen or so timelines, most of which feature debris from the lost E-D plus a rather shaken Bozeman. A fun thought, that. But shouldn't there be a dozen shaken Bozemen now? Well, no, unless the Bozeman managed to fly outside the spatial reach of the looping phenomenon (to the "safe zone" where the timebase clocks keep happily ticking) while the E-D was busy exploding. And we have no reason to think she would have. The loop clears out the debris and the leftover starship.
    4) The decision not to alter course makes good sense in this episode, unlike in "Time Squared". In that earlier episode, the course of the ship was known in advance: she was traveling from A to B. If this was to lead to a disaster in the future, it would be logical to take a detour to C. However, in the episode at hand, the heroes were idly exploring, which involves taking random turns and poking at assorted things. Nothing about this would be known in advance, so the heroes
    • wouldn't have a yardstick of what not to do, and
    • would realize that the loop they are caught in is a robust one, since it caught them during random unpredictable action and then did this again several times before the heroes knew to be wary of their random unpredictable actions.
    5) The collision is a weird one. Is the tractor beam on or not? Why does a collision of two nacelles blow up one ship but not the other? How could the shuttlebay air suffice in moving the E-D, and how would that movement (forward, perhaps with a pitch down meaning the nacelles come up) protect her from the impact we see? All this is details, though - and the loop was a robust one, perhaps exactly because the collision was an inevitable one somehow. Say, the approaching of the E-D would always trigger the century-long time jump gateway exactly at the right spot relative to the E-D to create the collision ("dead ahead" ought to suffice and is natural enough). We don't have any reason to think that the time jump of the Bozeman would happen without the E-D being there to trigger it, after all.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  8. That's So Bane

    That's So Bane Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    How do we know the Bozeman didn't also blow up? Just because the camera follows the hero ship doesn't mean nothing happens to the other ship after the collision.
     
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  9. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Very true, that. I'd like to think that not all starships have "glass nacelles" - the Abrams movie one seemed to do fine even when losing some hull plating around that bit, say. But supposedly both ships would be in more or less the same predicament, their key systems down but their nacelle plasma still active and ready to do harm.

    In any case, the loop would clear out the old starship whether she survived or not. It clears out the debris of the E-D, after all, and the debris isn't qualitatively different from the Bozeman.

    That is, we probably get a dozen separate timelines filled with E-D debris and Bozemen, intact or blown up, but none of those affects the most recent loop in any fashion. And each such timeline ought to spit out its end results into the "regular" timeline where the timebase beacons keep ticking, at intervals of about a day. So if the Bozeman did survive the explosion even once, she didn't survive the subsequent looping, or else there'd be that extra Bozeman around.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019