Strange New Worlds disappointment

[gabby1701]

This season has received the first real negative reviews and has very widely been seen as a drop in quality. There's still a lot of positivity left from earlier seasons but this season was criticised. Even the showrunners have acknowledged that there were problems. Most reviewers have put at least a fair amount of the blame on the endless romances and have highlighted Spock in particular as becoming ridiculous. Even ardent fans like Trek Culture have expressed their real dislike with the out of character and melodramatic focus on Spock's romance.

I think it's fair to say that the way they've handled romance and Spock's in particular has attracted significant and widespread criticism. People who didn't like the romance at all in Season 1 and 2 aren't going to like this focus. People who like T'Pring and Spock or Chapel and Spock as a couple aren't going to like this. They haven't left themselves a lot of room to succeed with.

If they want Year One then they need Season 4 to work and be very successful. Season 4 is in the can which is a concern. If they have the same focus and they want the season to be perceived more positively then they need to think about what to cut, edit or alter with a voice over.

the widespread criticism is deserved and I am happy even some like you that is a spokesperson for the spock/chapel ridiculousness can admit it unlike others but I feel you need to do some digging on this show concept. you are wondering how spock can move on chapel even though you feel he loved her? I can explain some reasons

1. backlash of making spock/chapel canon from some traditional trek fans
2. CW writing style.
3. little sci fi knowledge. (red matter is better than snw romance)

I used to watch a lot of CW shows or many teen shows (gossip girl, one tree hill, the oc, 90210) and one thing that tends to be normal is that their characters move on fast. the love is superficial. which is what spock/chapel was anyway. I think they can do better with spock/laan by giving it some depth especially since laan has a lot of trauma.

the gossip girl characters like dan, chuck and nate will say how much they love a girl, date her for 3 episode break up with her and they are on to the next girl friend for 3 episodes that they will also claim is the love of their lives.

shows like the OC was the same, ryan will break up with marissa the suppose love of his life and in the next episode he will sleep with his childhood girl friend and get her pregnant.

The fact that they brought this writing style to star trek- I find it down right unforgivable and worse they use spock as the central point of this? madness.

I am sorry but how is Peck Spock better than Quinto Spock again? if the snw folks wanted to keep ripping buffy off why not rip the good parts of buffy as well. Buffy for 7 seasons and 7 years only had 3 main guys in her life. Spock cannot wait to get it on with chapel or laan fast as one romance end. yeah that does not seem like love to me.

JJ Abrams star trek for all it flaws, told a far more believe romantic story with Spock than this snw writers from snw and I am still meant to hate that? No one will agree with me but SNW has basterzed Spock character than JJ trek ever, so keep up with the deserved widespread criticism from the public domian.

 

[ILovePuppies]

the widespread criticism is deserved and I am happy even some like you that is a spokesperson for the spock/chapel ridiculousness can admit it unlike others but I feel you need to do some digging on this show concept. you are wondering how spock can move on chapel even though you feel he loved her?

Yes, I think that Spock loved her as they explicitly stated that in Ep 2. I would have been doubtful before that and no before the season 2 finale. I think that he had feelings for her TOS because of how he broke down in the Naked Now following he declaration but fully appreciate that this is very subjective.

I don't think I'm the spokesperson for Spock and Chapel. I really enjoyed Spock and T'Pring as well. At this point, I'm anti Spock romance! There's plenty that I didn't like about Spock and Chapel's relationship. I do think that the sexual tension in season 1 was very built but that was in combination with his engagement to T'Pring. They committed a lot of time and attention to it and think their shared love of science and friendship jumped off the screen well. The actual relationship was very, very rushed. I don't know why. If they didn't want to do it then they certainly didn't have to. If they did, then do it properly.

I can explain some reasons

1. backlash of making spock/chapel canon from some traditional trek fans
2. CW writing style.
3. little sci fi knowledge. (red matter is better than snw romance)

I used to watch a lot of CW shows or many teen shows (gossip girl, one tree hill, the oc, 90210) and one thing that tends to be normal is that their characters move on fast. the love is superficial. which is what spock/chapel was anyway. I think they can do better with spock/laan by giving it some depth especially since laan has a lot of trauma.

the gossip girl characters like dan, chuck and nate will say how much they love a girl, date her for 3 episode break up with her and they are on to the next girl friend for 3 episodes that they will also claim is the love of their lives.

shows like the OC was the same, ryan will break up with marissa the suppose love of his life and in the next episode he will sleep with his childhood girl friend and get her pregnant.

I've never watched any of these shows as I've avoided teen drama shows. I don't know what CW is. I don't think that superficial romance suits Star Trek and especially doesn't suit Spock. We know that Chapel will love him for years to come so it's been established in TOS that her love is not superficial. Arguably in TOS Spock still has feelings for her so his love was not superficial either.

I do think though that you've touched on a part of the reason it bothers me which Ellie from Trek Culture said as well. The moving on so fast makes his emotional experiences involving both T'Pring and Chapel to be surface level. These experiences should be HUGE for Spock. He's at risk of throwing away his family duty and Vulcan tradition so this is a big deal. In doing so, it undermines that 1.5 seasons of building. Star Trek don't usually want superficial relationships. Even Riker and Troi who could have a romance one episode and have forgotten about it the next thanks to serialised story telling were not superficial. They married so clearly were meant to hold onto their feelings. As Spock and Chapel held onto their love / feelings in TOS, they need to establish the relationship as far from superficial. They could still do this if they want to but that will need to involve Spock and La'an acknowledging that this is not a deep relationship and that they both still have feelings for their respective former partners / interests. Chapel will also need to see some bad points about Korby. I don't know if they'll do this or not. They've repeatedly said that it's casual and the showrunners have said that it's about making themselves happy int he moment. La'an's freak out about the socks and Una' warning about a relationship creeping up on you indicate that they might both not be happy or want a relationship. I don't know if they'll commit to this. I can't fathom that they have much to gain from sticking Spock in another relationship or showing love sick Spock because it's already been done (and is the ONLY character development that Spock has received). The showrunners do seem stuck in him being the romantic hero though so sadly, who knows.

I'm thinking that they'll have to break them up in Season 4 and Spock will need to get a lot of closer to Nimoy's Spock. I know it's a common theory that La'an will die and this was change things but I don't think that they'll go there. Christina Chong and Ethan Peck said that Spock goes through a lot in Season 4 which transitions him and La'an is clearly in both Season 4 and 5. I think that they wouldn't put a focus on this being a casual thing if she was meant to be the love of his life who was responsible for his emotional upheaval.

I do agree with you though that this season was not well received and a lot of the criticism was about the amount of romance and Spock's in particular. Two interviewers flat out asked the showrunners if Spock was going to sleep with all the senior staff and the showrunners seemed surprised that they hadn't enjoyed it. The showrunners DO care about that as they mentioned the press's reaction at Comic Con. Paramount are in a huge mess and SNW is the only live action Star Trek on air. If they want Year One to be greenlit then they need Season 4 to be a huge success. They need to think about what to leave on the cutting room floor and find the vibe of Season 1 and 2 back.

 

[gabby1701]

Yes, I think that Spock loved her as they explicitly stated that in Ep 2. I would have been doubtful before that and no before the season 2 finale. I think that he had feelings for her TOS because of how he broke down in the Naked Now following he declaration but fully appreciate that this is very subjective.

yes it is the moving on fast that lies the big criticism and why we call the writing style CW. however we should have seen this in hindsight anyway. Charades in season 2 was bad. spock had sex with chapel immediately after trping said she wanted a break. he jumped really fast, so maybe we should not be surprised he jumped to laan fast as well. they pulled the same crappy writing.

Its crazy to think spock is meant to be in love with chapel even in the end of wedding bell blues and they are already hinting him and laan in that same episode. it makes the whole thing superficial. I think to me this was when spock as a character went off the rails that even Quinto Spock just seem true to the lore a lot more.

Also even if we forgive that and say spock/chapel are a couple post Charades. we barely even see them date constantly or be happy or even show they have anything in common.
this was even before Bolmair spoke to chapel

and then they have this big break up in the music episode and their dynamic never really recovered and spock also became hissy whipped by chapel. I do not think people know just how much this has angered the male fans of star trek considering we know in TOS Spock did not even see Chapel as anything more than a nurse.

As a TNG stan, Troi and Wolf was some of the weakest star trek couple that we knew were not going to make it but my gosh that was handled better. TNG even handled a potential love triangle with Riker better than what SNW did.

There is also something Troi has with Riker and Wolf that Chapel lacks with Spock? respect of her man, empathy for her man and warmth and I say this about troi and wolf, a couple that was not even liked in fandom.

what are we even judging snw by? if it is by other trek series than it is sure lacking objectively. hello fans, for those that want to know how to do a good love triangle even when one character has every right to be pissed off at his rival. I give you TNG.

Now this is star trek romance done great.

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See how Riker handle that lunatic who tried to bait him about Troi loving him more than Riker himself? Now this is an adult show not the CW stuff we got from SNW . I think riker talk with wolf in season 7 was even better. shame I cannot find the clip.

but but but some here will melt on the snow hill defending SNW as the greatest trek ever even though clearly the evidence is not backing it up.

 

[gabby1701]

As Spock and Chapel held onto their love / feelings in TOS, they need to establish the relationship as far from superficial. They could still do this if they want to but that will need to involve Spock and La'an acknowledging that this is not a deep relationship and that they both still have feelings for their respective former partners / interests. Chapel will also need to see some bad points about Korby. I don't know if they'll do this or not. They've repeatedly said that it's casual and the showrunners have said that it's about making themselves happy int he moment. La'an's freak out about the socks and Una' warning about a relationship creeping up on you indicate that they might both not be happy or want a relationship. I don't know if they'll commit to this. I can't fathom that they have much to gain from sticking Spock in another relationship or showing love sick Spock because it's already been done (and is the ONLY character development that Spock has received). The showrunners do seem stuck in him being the romantic hero though so sadly, who knows.

I missed this part of your take but I think this explains the main problem core of snw with these characters. the love story of spock/chapel in snw was not founded in a good place. the foundation was desigenous and I would even say hateful. too hateful of TOS. I feel this is why it as fruited many bad feelings among watchers and critics.

if spock and chapel hanged on to their love then spock would not act the way he did in TOS to her. Spock would not also have let him self reunite with Lelia and in season 3 zarabeth who he dated but she was stuck in the past or something like that.

In TOS, it is was beyond clear spock had no feelings for chapel that bas driven by passionate love, physcailly attraction or sex. we spent nearly 60 years of TOS knowing chapel as a character who had an unrequited love for spock. in fact the phrase unrequited I first learned from TOS because that was what Chapel was most famous for as a trek character.

So for the SNW writers to retcon and blow it up and try to forcefully rewrite things to this extent that Spock is even now the love sick puppy was a tragic flaw that should never have happened and it was done for one reason only . to place a new wave feminist narrative on how people saw spock/chapel and not because these writers actually thought spock should truly be in love with chapel because if the writer really thought so, I think they would have kept Chapel in SNW close to her TOS Version as played by Majel Barett a chapel that had some warmth and was some times still likebale that you could feel sorry for?

why should I feel sorry for SNW Chapel after the crap she pulled in subspace rphahasopdy and wedding bell blues?

I feel sorry for TOS Chapel wen spock threw soup at her in amok time.

see the difference?

 

[Boo-khat!]

no offence but I feel at this point a lot here are just grasping for straws.

the cat is out of the bag, the genie is out of the bottle, season 3 has been critically panned all across the board. The RT Audience scores is still dropping every day.

the creators have tried to blame it on the writers strikes but one of the most critically panned aspect of the show is the lousy CW romances that took prominent over the sci fi.

this is a feat no trek series has ever achieved not even star trek enterprise that came from the classic trek era.

What does any of that have to do with their Kelvin timeline, which was what I was talking about?

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

What if you re-frame it as people who are in love with the idea of someone, and so anyone who at the time who reminds them of that person is appealing, or alternately, is that person's exact opposite (in some respects if not others) and is therefore a way of trying to leave the one they think they want behind?

Spock is alternately trying to connect/rebel with his Human side and be Vulcan enough for his society. His illogical heart wants one thing, his logical mind requires another, or maybe both want a bit of both. He has some other human relationships - maybe some of it is because his mother was human (certainly Kelvin Spock, for that matter, perhaps wants what his father had because they both lost Amanda earlier on - a committed relationship, yes with ups and downs). Kelvinverse Christine may be more fulfilled or never connects with him.)

Chapel perhaps seeks love and career validation and appreciation - Spock offers one, and Korby another. Both are scientists. She'll always have a tender place in her heart for Spock because he's Spock, though. In TOS, nobody else (to our knowledge) ever came along in Chapel's life after she realized that Korby was an android.

At some point, she finally became a doctor and Spock had gone in search of kolinahr. She had perhaps a major goal she'd sought to achieve and he was on his way to what he thought he wanted. He dies, and that's it, as far as we and she knows. He comes back again, possibly marries (maybe it was him and her, maybe not her, maybe not even him), and years later, disappears for good as far as prime Chapel knows (if she yet lives), marital and kid status unknown.

Perhaps Christine never has a fling with McCoy (unless SNW changes that) because he represents where she'd rather not be right now (nurse to a doctor, not a scientist/doctor herself) and to some extent, is in the same boat with her - he'd rather not be on a starship, facing battle dangers and using the transporter - he's just an old country doc at heart. So they both would like to be elsewhere, but neither can take the other there.

 

[gabby1701]

What does any of that have to do with their Kelvin timeline, which was what I was talking about?

Because kelvin trek characters are better written than SNW even though they only get less than 2.5 hours for each movies to tell their story. and kelvin trek is a good place to show all the flaws of SNW, you all swore to me was a masterpiece.

SNW wishes it was kelvin trek. heck they wish they were Voyager.

Here is a sweet vulcan romance SNW should have copied from.

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Now compare this to how spock burns through all this women in SNW. in hindsight they should just have kept him with Tpring, apart from the sex scenes in the first episode and tpring only showing up for sex for most of season 1, I think spock/tpring were tolerable and closer to classic trek romance.

 

[ILovePuppies]

What if you re-frame it as people who are in love with the idea of someone, and so anyone who at the time who reminds them of that person is appealing, or alternately, is that person's exact opposite (in some respects if not others) and is therefore a way of trying to leave the one they think they want behind?

Spock is alternately trying to connect/rebel with his Human side and be Vulcan enough for his society. His illogical heart wants one thing, his logical mind requires another, or maybe both want a bit of both. He has some other human relationships - maybe some of it is because his mother was human (certainly Kelvin Spock, for that matter, perhaps wants what his father had because they both lost Amanda earlier on - a committed relationship, yes with ups and downs). Kelvinverse Christine may be more fulfilled or never connects with him.)

Chapel perhaps seeks love and career validation and appreciation - Spock offers one, and Korby another. Both are scientists. She'll always have a tender place in her heart for Spock because he's Spock, though. In TOS, nobody else (to our knowledge) ever came along in Chapel's life after she realized that Korby was an android.

At some point, she finally became a doctor and Spock had gone in search of kolinahr. She had perhaps a major goal she'd sought to achieve and he was on his way to what he thought he wanted. He dies, and that's it, as far as we and she knows. He comes back again, possibly marries (maybe it was him and her, maybe not her, maybe not even him), and years later, disappears for good as far as prime Chapel knows (if she yet lives), marital and kid status unknown.

Perhaps Christine never has a fling with McCoy (unless SNW changes that) because he represents where she'd rather not be right now (nurse to a doctor, not a scientist/doctor herself) and to some extent, is in the same boat with her - he'd rather not be on a starship, facing battle dangers and using the transporter - he's just an old country doc at heart. So they both would like to be elsewhere, but neither can take the other there.

I don't think that Chapel or Spock were only in love with the idea of each other. They had many years as friends and long enough in a relationship to know each other. They must serve together for many, many years. I apologise if I've misinterpreted this or this was intended for a specific poster. Yes we don't know Chapel or Spock's final marital status or really much at all after TOS. A follow up series would have offered more opportunity here than Year 1. I think that that she must be dead by the time he disappears for the last time?

I think that Spock in SNW is certainly conflicted between his Vulcan and Human halves. T'Pring and Christine represented these two halves well in Seasons 1 and 2. It's not clear if or how La'an might fit into this picture. She might be something else all together and not meant to reflect an important piece of his life so much as a something pleasurable in the here and now. Anyway, I think that they built the human-vulcan conflict well in Season 1 and 2 and dropped it in season 3. Another signs of a disappointing season 3 for me.

Yes she becomes a doctor. I don't think we have any evidence that this was a big goal for her for a long period of time? Nurses are very valuable and she seems to be primarily interested in research. In the movie era, I think that they wanted to give her a more 'important' job which made her more equal to McCoy. That's an outdated view as nurses are invaluable and draw on a different skill set than doctors. I know that SNW debated whether she should be a doctor but I'm glad that she was a nurse. Changing this undermines the roles of nurses in our society.

Gosh I hope that McCoy and Chapel were never interested in each other! The last thing we need is another relationship!

 

[flandry84]

“SNW only wishes it was Voyager..”

Too true my friend.
Sci-fi written by and for people who think Buffy is sci-fi.

 

[gabby1701]

“SNW only wishes it was Voyager..”

Too true my friend.
Sci-fi written by and for people who think Buffy is sci-fi.

yay, I have a defender now. Thanks. I swear if you see the nightmare I have been in for the last 3 years as people trashed kelvin trek, voyager, enterprise and even discovery.

Claiming SNW is the best since DS9? OK let us even use DS9 didn't Sisko have a healthier relationship with his wife. Jennifer Sisko, before she died.

Kasidy came later and Sisko had to grief Jennifer but find love again with Kasidy the romantic transition was excellent from Jennifer to Kasidy compared to how spock goes from tpring to chapel to laan in snw. So how is SNW as good as DS9?

Yeah, you see I have a thing for remembering many of the Black or interracial couples in star trek since they speak to me on a personal level.

I even see michael and tyler (black/ Pakistan couple) as a good example of first love gone wrong in discovery and their romance was kind of healthy until the klingon thing with tyler.

Brian and Kekio who I loved from TNG too and they moved to DS9 were also a very sweet and stable couple. Raising a family. which relationship can we say is healthy and lasting in SNW? but but but SNW is the greatest trek ever.

Maybe snw spock/chapel get a lot of defence with their toxicness because they are two hot white characters who romance was told from a horny teen perspective. I am confused to another reason since I know this kind of romantic angle was not a thing in star trek and I keep giving other examples of romance in trek 60s year history to support my take .

Also DS9 is docked at a space station, but they have done more exploring than SNW ever does.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

I don't think we have any evidence that this was a big goal for her for a long period of time?

It might be a bit closer to her science goals than nurse was. Perhaps Korby's disappearance and death ruined archaeology for her? That can happen to some people. Some people join careers with a lot of travelling because they don't like to stay in one place, a way of running from their pain and problems.

 

[fireproof78]

SNW wishes it was kelvin trek. heck they wish they were Voyager.

No.

It's doing its own thing. Some enjoy it and others don't. SNW and all future Trek needs to leave the comparison game behind if they want to succeed.

So how is SNW as good as DS9?

Because I enjoy the characters.

 

[Zombie Cheerleader]

Also DS9 is docked at a space station, but they have done more exploring than SNW ever does.

Actually it is a space station. You might want to invest in a proofreader. Or maybe rewatch the show and take better notes

Exploring isn't what Star Trek in all its forms is about. Unless it's the exploration of the human condition. Our failures, foibles and fantasies.

 

[GhoulEddie74]

This page has more factual inaccuracies than a Tommy Flanagan dating video.

 

[fireproof78]

This page has more factual inaccuracies than a Tommy Flanagan dating video.

How else can people be selectively outraged!

 

[Boo-khat!]

Because kelvin trek characters are better written than SNW even though they only get less than 2.5 hours for each movies to tell their story. and kelvin trek is a good place to show all the flaws of SNW, you all swore to me was a masterpiece.

SNW wishes it was kelvin trek. heck they wish they were Voyager.

Here is a sweet vulcan romance SNW should have copied from.

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Now compare this to how spock burns through all this women in SNW. in hindsight they should just have kept him with Tpring, apart from the sex scenes in the first episode and tpring only showing up for sex for most of season 1, I think spock/tpring were tolerable and closer to classic trek romance.

Now you’re just posting nonsense for the sake of posting nonsense. Since it’s clear that we’re not going to have any kind of meaningful conversation, I’ll just let this drop.