Yes because they were a Japanese puppet govt.
Starfleet hand to hand combat.
- Thread starter The_Baroness
- Start date
Yes because they were a Japanese puppet govt.
Despite the fact that personal force fields are mentioned, we never see them. Not in the Homefront/Paradise Lost story not even in episodes like Nor the Battle to the Strong or The Siege of AR-558 when we see Federation troops in combat.
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Also, remember that Leyton wasn't preparing for a Dominion invasion. He was preparing for riots that might ensue when he took control of Earth.
In light of that, we might consider personal forcefields mere riot gear, just like photon grenades in TNG "Legacy" were. That is, they would be effective against thrown bottles, but if somebody in the mob had a disruptor pistol, the trooper hit by that would be dead.
Indeed, for all we know, the personal shields actually looked like this:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tffhd/ch7/tffhd0819.jpg
Timo Saloniemi
In light of that, we might consider personal forcefields mere riot gear, just like photon grenades in TNG "Legacy" were. That is, they would be effective against thrown bottles, but if somebody in the mob had a disruptor pistol, the trooper hit by that would be dead.
Indeed, for all we know, the personal shields actually looked like this:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tffhd/ch7/tffhd0819.jpg
Timo Saloniemi
Possibly, but he made the comment in front of Sisko, who we can probably assume knew what they were and what the SOP for them was.
He probably might have thought "hey those wouldn't be much good against a Jem'Hadar disruptor".
This is the rest of the dialogue after the "Lakota" bit.
That seems to heavily imply they or at least Sisko thinks this is all to prepare for ground combat on a large scale against Jem'Hadar.
True....we don't see a lot of kit you'd expect a modern day army never mind one 300+ years in the future should have.
The thing is, somebody from the 1700s could have said the same after seeing CNN war footage. No flags or standards - these can't be soldiers, because they have no means of communicating! All dress in drab brown - these can't be soldiers, because without proper uniforms their battlefield maneuvers cannot be controlled! No bladed weapons or bayonets - these can't be soldiers, because what will protect them when they reload? And no horses - sure, they have these scifi things that move on burning oil, but that's not realistic, because those can only move while there's oil left, and only civilians would rely on such technology.
Our heroes carry a surprising amount of kit. They have sidearms (hand phasers). They have field knives (hand phasers). They have shovels (hand phasers). They have portable heaters (hand phasers). They have foxhole-digging and wall-penetrating charges (hand phasers). They have flare guns (hand phasers). They have machine guns and and flamethrowers integrated to their guns (hand phasers). They have axes (hand phasers). They have stun guns (hand phasers). And that's before we start listing all the comm, planning and analysis gear they lug.
We can also look back at TAS where personal shields were used exclusively for protection from the environment, for life support. Perhaps Leyton wanted to equip the infantry with those for the same reason we would issue our infantry with gas masks? Not for stopping phased polaron beams or bullets or shrapnel, but for stopping poison gas? Since the Jem'Hadar didn't attack with poison gas, there was no reason to whip out the personal shields, then.
Timo Saloniemi
Our heroes carry a surprising amount of kit. They have sidearms (hand phasers). They have field knives (hand phasers). They have shovels (hand phasers). They have portable heaters (hand phasers). They have foxhole-digging and wall-penetrating charges (hand phasers). They have flare guns (hand phasers). They have machine guns and and flamethrowers integrated to their guns (hand phasers). They have axes (hand phasers). They have stun guns (hand phasers). And that's before we start listing all the comm, planning and analysis gear they lug.
True enough. But if there's no penalty (weight, physical clumsiness, other interference) to carrying a riot control shield, then it's probably a good idea to give it to your field trooper, too. Modern soldiers do have helmets and flak jackets even though those don't stop bullets, and that's despite the considerable penalty of wearing those!
We can also look back at TAS where personal shields were used exclusively for protection from the environment, for life support. Perhaps Leyton wanted to equip the infantry with those for the same reason we would issue our infantry with gas masks? Not for stopping phased polaron beams or bullets or shrapnel, but for stopping poison gas? Since the Jem'Hadar didn't attack with poison gas, there was no reason to whip out the personal shields, then.
Timo Saloniemi
Even that's more protection than we saw the Federation troops on DS9 had.
Modern body armor can stop bullets. My Interceptor vest(universal issue to members of the US Army) had four plates that were rated to stop standard 7.62mm rounds. My helmet and non-plate areas of my vest would stop most pistol rounds. I have several buddies who are still alive thanks to those vests which stopped AK rounds cold.
But the race between weapons and armor is always evolving. For hundreds of years armies of the world did not use armor, gunpowder weapons were just too powerful, only since WWII more or less, has materials science progressed to the point where body armor is viable. And advances like liquid armors, and pizo-electric soft/hard suits might in the near future put guns at even more of a disadvantage. But new ammunition types may well counter those, just as armor piercing rounds can penetrate most current body armor.
It isn't particularly hard to imagine that in Star Trek they are currently at a technological level where there is no portable way to stop a modern energy beam weapon, so why even try?
Although if I were Starfleet I'd be looking at things like the Borg ability to adapt to energy weapon frequencies with a keen eye.
But the race between weapons and armor is always evolving. For hundreds of years armies of the world did not use armor, gunpowder weapons were just too powerful, only since WWII more or less, has materials science progressed to the point where body armor is viable. And advances like liquid armors, and pizo-electric soft/hard suits might in the near future put guns at even more of a disadvantage. But new ammunition types may well counter those, just as armor piercing rounds can penetrate most current body armor.
It isn't particularly hard to imagine that in Star Trek they are currently at a technological level where there is no portable way to stop a modern energy beam weapon, so why even try?
Although if I were Starfleet I'd be looking at things like the Borg ability to adapt to energy weapon frequencies with a keen eye.
The armors has to be comfortable, too, to not hinder your troops ability to fight. Why bother to where armors if it's going to slow you down or hinder your ability to fight more effectively. If you they used the right kind of weapons and with determine enemies, that could be quite a problem. I've heard the Hirogens using their body armors to track a silicon base life form through a collapsed star; they seemed so comfortable in those things. I don't know how our phasers were able to knock them out. [chuckle]
Which makes them uncanon!!!! BWA HA HA HA HAAAA!
It was something of a plot point that Starfleet shields did squat to protect from the Jem'Hadar phased polaron beams. So even if our heroes and sidekicks and guest stars continued to wear the useless shield belts or harnesses or whatever, we probably wouldn't see them flare up when hit, but merely effortlessly penetrated - that's how starship shields reacted to phased polaron beams, after all. So it's not completely impossible that such things actually were present at, say, AR-558...
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
Kliongons with swords going up against Starfleeters with phasers always reminds me of that scene in Indiana Jones where the guy is showing off with his sword and Indy just shoots him.
Except we saw close combat happen quite frequently in ST.
Jem'Hadar (who also seem to be the only infantry force actually equipped and uniformed practically)and Klingon's have all been seen getting close enough to phaser armed opponents to use close combat melee weapons.
Would it have killed starfleet to equip their phaser rifles with some 24th century style bayonet instead of having people trying to club opponents?
Even the MACO's stun baton type device might have been handy.
I can only remember seeing Jem'Hadar engage in HTH when their guns were disabled.
As for Klingons, they tended to go with either guns or swords depending on where they were fighting. It's best seen in WOTW; the klingons beaming into the more open spaces of the promenade rolled with disruptors, while the ones materialising in the confines of ops mostly opted for bat'leths.
Siege of Ar-558?. Once they crossed the perimeter defence they seemed to be doing a lot of "say hello to the butt of my rifle" plus they actually have a bayonet on their disruptor's.
That's kind of my point mate, I know the Klingons are a bit knife happy (as I am myself....in collecting them not actually using them ) but when you're only melee weapon is to start swinging a phaser rifle like a club it might be time for a bit of rethink.
Even if it's just fitting 20cm worth of retractable blade on the front. With all their super materials surely a bayonet/fighting knife need not be that much of a weight penalty?
IMHO
The Jem'Hadar were trying to take the crew alive. And I don't think the Jem'Hadar rifles have a stun setting, everything about the Jem'Hadar is lethal after all. So beating the Defiant’s crew with rifle buts was better than shooting holes through their chests
The same goes for Canadian body armour. I know a guy who took a chunk of shrapnel to the head, thanks to his helmet he wasn't hurt at all, but he needed a new helmet after.
That is what I have always thought too.
As for the issue of Starfleet personnel carrying knives or bayonets, as someone already said the Starfleet hand phaser pretty much does everything that a knife could do anyway. Even today, knives and bayonets are really only issued to soldiers as tools, not weapons.
The real reason why Starfleet doesn't wear helmets and body armour was because Gene Roddenberry didn't want them too. He felt that it looked "Too Military" for the peaceful Starfleet. Gene had less control over the films than the series so in TMP through to ST VI the security guards did wear helmets and body armour. It wasn’t until Nor the Battle to the Strong and the Siege at AR558 that we saw anything close to Starfleet body armour in a Star Trek series.
However, even if the weapons were too powerful to be stopped by personal shields and body armour, the amount of shrapnel that flies around in a typical Star Trek battle, both on ground and from exploding consoles during a space battle, ballistic glasses and other protective gear would definitely be helpful.
Also, the number of times characters have been in caves or almost killed in cave-ins, or knocked unconscious from rock slides they really should be wearing helmets.
Televised scifi has been curiously reluctant to use helmets of any sort, and I don't think it's just to avoid a "military look" (because most shows would have no reason to try that).
Helmets, hats and even scarves are bad for TV because they hide the face. It's much more difficult to properly light a shot with a character in headgear than with a character without, and while movies take the time, TV shows probably try to avoid it whenever they can. Trek could of course have come up with a new type of futuristic headgear that didn't present lighting problems - Abyss scored major points for introducing a new style of working scuba mask that properly shows the face of the actor by using large, faceted transparent surfaces, and gained a distinct "look" as a bonus...
Timo Saloniemi
Helmets, hats and even scarves are bad for TV because they hide the face. It's much more difficult to properly light a shot with a character in headgear than with a character without, and while movies take the time, TV shows probably try to avoid it whenever they can. Trek could of course have come up with a new type of futuristic headgear that didn't present lighting problems - Abyss scored major points for introducing a new style of working scuba mask that properly shows the face of the actor by using large, faceted transparent surfaces, and gained a distinct "look" as a bonus...
Timo Saloniemi
Someone mentioned the silly fight moves that trek characters have used.
Other shows have done them, but Trek would take it to the 10th degree.
Like that double handed ax hammer whatever punch that was mentioned. Looks cool, but in real life it would probably help you get your a-- handed to you.
The others were the fight scenes in DS9, WOTW- the scene where Kira gets stabbed, pulls the knife out, and then knocks the Klingon out with some precise moves.
It made Kira look like real combat veteran (gained a lot of respect for her), though I've read you shouldn't pull a knife out like that, it only worsens the damage.
If you look right behind Sisko and the others, you'll see Dax fighting off a Klingon, then simply kicks him in the mid section, and he goes down for the count.
Other shows have done them, but Trek would take it to the 10th degree.
Like that double handed ax hammer whatever punch that was mentioned. Looks cool, but in real life it would probably help you get your a-- handed to you.
The others were the fight scenes in DS9, WOTW- the scene where Kira gets stabbed, pulls the knife out, and then knocks the Klingon out with some precise moves.
It made Kira look like real combat veteran (gained a lot of respect for her), though I've read you shouldn't pull a knife out like that, it only worsens the damage.
If you look right behind Sisko and the others, you'll see Dax fighting off a Klingon, then simply kicks him in the mid section, and he goes down for the count.
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