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Starfleet hand to hand combat.

Wouldn't a personal shield suffocate the user? The Borg don't need to breath, they can pile on layer after of layer of shielding and not worry. But most species need to breath and inside a personal shield the air would go bad pretty quick. Yes, the person could also have a means of resupplying their air, but that's just another thing to carry. The more you carry, the less capable of fighting you are.

This personal shield debate kind of reminds me in a scene from the X-Men comics. Sebastian Shaw was going to fight Cyclops, bragging that Cyclops optic blasts would only make him stronger if Cyclops hits him with them. Cyclops answer, "Who says I'm going to hit you?" and he blasts away the floor from under Shaw.

If you know a person can take a few hits before going down, use another way. If it's a boarding party, open the nearest hatch exposing the party to space and force them to use up any air they brought with them. Increase or decrease the gravity where they are. Blow out the deck from under them. Have the whole security detail use wide beams set high to overpower as many shields as they can before they go back to tight beams.
 
IIRC, one of the TNG eps (I think it was Chain of Command) had a portable single-direction forcefield, and there was a similar unit in Insurrection.

There were forcefield tripods against the firestorms in "Lessons", and there were transporter jammers (that did not resist weapons fire in any observable way) in ST:INS. The putative platoon shield would probably be more like the former than the latter - although one would expect Starfleet ground troops to carry those jammers, too, and for this to be the reason why Picard had them on stock.

Whenever a bad guy's got a magic personal forcefield, he isn't bouncing around the walls.

Indeed, the guys most famous for their forcefields, the Borg Drones, are notorious for their zombie gait. There might be a connection there.

The black-and-white people of Cheron had something looking like the TAS skintight envirofield, yet with the ability to resist phaser fire and apparently a function in Cheronian-to-Cheronian wrestling as well. But again, that's advanced aliens.

A shield wouldn't need to be bubble-shaped either.

Certainly not. Although we don't know why some shields are skintight (over a starship or a person) and others have a simpler shape and some standoff distance. We have seen both types resist kinetic impact - but when skintight shields again became the VFX norm in late DS9 and ST:NEM, ramming also resurfaced as a valid combat maneuver. So we might weakly speculate that skintight fields are going to be poor performers in stopping bullets, shrapnel or knives. (Worf McGyvered a non-conformal shield for the purpose, mind you.)

Wouldn't a personal shield suffocate the user?

We've seen TOS era breathing gear, and it's extremely compact. Something like that could easily fit within the belt that erects the TAS life support field, leaving only the problem of air circulation. And simple fans or then peristaltic movement of the skinfield would take care of not only air supply, but of thermal regulation as well.

If you know a person can take a few hits before going down, use another way.

Which would seem to be our best proof that personal forcefields aren't in use by the UFP-level cultures of Star Trek. That is, their undeniable effect on combat is never taken into account either by the heroes or the villains.

OTOH, the total lack of wide-beam or beam-sweeping tactics might suggest that our heroes and villains indeed believe that they need to punch their opponent with concentrated firepower. This, when the natural assumption would be that even the weakest glancing blow or "side lobe leakage" effect from these extremely powerful death rays should be enough to take a fragile humanoid out of the fight. So the conclusion ought to be that troops trained for combat believe their targets aren't vulnerable to glancing blows in the general case. (That a Federation starship landing party indeed is vulnerable is a statistically insignificant element in that training, and something the average Klingon or Cardassian doesn't have to take into account.)

The annoying thing is that this personal shielding issue is actually threefold: we have evidence that there are no phaser-stopping personal shields, we have evidence that forcefields aren't commonly used for stopping lesser threats like sticks and stones - and we still see physical armor worn a lot. Klingons have it, Cardassians have it. For all we know, the Federation pajamas are also armor; the TMP security gear certainly appears to be. These folks opt to wear obviously clumsy and movement-hindering gear. But the litmus test fails: all of these "armor" types have been shown to be vulnerable to knives, kicks, fists and karate chops.

Are we to think that Klingon and Cardassian and possible Federation armor is worn because, while it's useless against kinetic attack, it reduces phaser impact by X %? We did see one Federation trooper survive a disruptor blast to his chest apparently by virtue of his uniform in "Nor the Battle". And we can't really tell if all those Klingons hit squarely in their chest armor really die, or merely get stunned enough that they play no further role in the episode.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Actually about the borg, do we have any proof that their shielding has any protective capability against projectile weapons (contemporary assault rifles etc) or melee weapons (swords, bat'leths, maces etc)?


Worf took out a couple of borg with a mek'leth and the butt of a phaser rifle (poor dumb human tried the same trick and got walloped) and of course Picard and the Tommy gun.

I don't think we have ever seen the borg "shields" activate to protect against physical impacts?
They may only be a type of directed energy absorption system rather then actual shields IMHO.
 
Indeed, the guys most famous for their forcefields, the Borg Drones, are notorious for their zombie gait
That was kind of disregarded though in more recent borg appearances wasn't it?. The STFC borg seemed to move pretty well.
 
Ah, those. :p

Definitely anti-kinetic capabilities there: the drones and their tags would have been representative of both the blunt-instrument threat and the bullet/shrapnel threat. If that could be made mobile, I see no reason why it shouldn't.

OTOH, luckily for continuity, it is immobile. And so, come to think of it, was Worf's commbadge shield. Maybe there's more to mobile forcefields than the inconvenience of bumping into things? Maybe pushing a forcefield through mere air is really impractical already? Unless it's skintight, and even then the constant glow of the TAS fields may be due to impacts with air...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Ah, those. :p

Definitely anti-kinetic capabilities there: the drones and their tags would have been representative of both the blunt-instrument threat and the bullet/shrapnel threat. If that could be made mobile, I see no reason why it shouldn't.

OTOH, luckily for continuity, it is immobile. And so, come to think of it, was Worf's commbadge shield. Maybe there's more to mobile forcefields than the inconvenience of bumping into things? Maybe pushing a forcefield through mere air is really impractical already? Unless it's skintight, and even then the constant glow of the TAS fields may be due to impacts with air...

Timo Saloniemi

I'm sure they have some kind of armors to protect them from any projectile weapons and plus in a hand to hand combat they can easily defeat any aliens since the enhanced Borg physiology give them lightning fast reflexes and hand eye coordination.
 
Ah, those. :p

Definitely anti-kinetic capabilities there: the drones and their tags would have been representative of both the blunt-instrument threat and the bullet/shrapnel threat. If that could be made mobile, I see no reason why it shouldn't.

OTOH, luckily for continuity, it is immobile. And so, come to think of it, was Worf's commbadge shield. Maybe there's more to mobile forcefields than the inconvenience of bumping into things? Maybe pushing a forcefield through mere air is really impractical already? Unless it's skintight, and even then the constant glow of the TAS fields may be due to impacts with air...

Timo Saloniemi

It only needs to be on long enough to turn a phaser beam from a weapon set on vaporize into a low-level disruption effect blast. Or some such.

Starfleet could take a cue from smart armor proposals - the forcefield only needs to switch on at the exact moment of threat to the operator - IE, the microsecond or whatever that the operator is struck by a weapon.
 
One wonders if that isn't already the case - that is, the shield is "off" when invisible, and only turned "on" when glowing from impact.

Might be too late for most purposes, though. I mean, hand phaser beams may be slower-than-sound, but if somebody decides to fire a laser at you, it will get a clean hit before a reactive system can react. And that's the more serious, the closer to the skin the shield is worn.

Timo Saloniemi
 
We're probably over thinking this...Starfleet didn't even properly equip their ground forces for the basics never mind personal shields and unarmed combat.

Look at "the siege of AR-558". The ground forces had the basic ship side uniform (some point out that it was the "surface operations black" type...didn't seem to be much if any major difference), the same non tactical boots (about as useful as a flame thrower in an igloo) .
No support/heavy/area denial weapons bar the ones they nicked off of the Jem'Hadar.


I think H2H combat and shielding was probably beyond their thinking in that scenario :|
 
They should be able to make a chain mail outfit as supple as silk and virtually impenetrable with a bladed melee weapon. Blunt ones would need plate armor to stop.
 
My own personal experience in hand to hand combat is what I learned from the US Army's combatives training and some off-duty Brazilian Jujitsu stuff.

So far as Army hand to hand combat is concerned, every fight lasts exactly as long as it takes for one of your battle buddies to arrive with a rifle or pistol. Thus, at the big Army level(I sparred with some Spec Ops guys, their training is different) the hand to hand combat doctrine is merely to wrap up and disable your opponent until help arrives. Neck snapping, face stomping, knife kills etc. are all commando stuff that is not emphasized(although us groundpounders pick a lot of it up informally).

Hand to hand combat is more complicated than people think, and that is just human v. human. Joint locks, pressure points, range of motion, leverage, all that stuff that is taught to us today would be a hundred times more complicated in Star Trek. Although being able to train against holograms and learning the actually force and pressures needed to break bones and snap necks would be invaluable.

"Hello class, I am Instructor Tuvok. I will be teaching you how to kill or disable over 200 different species of intelligent humanoids, including all major and minor enemies of the Federation. If you want to learn how to do unarmed combat against other beings such as Hortas or Founders and other non-carbon based non-humanoids you will need to sign up for Commander Kebron's class. We will begin with pressure points and vulnerable points on Romulans, Klingons, Jem'Hadar and Borg Drones."
 
It is difficult for a lot of people when the adrinaline is coursing through your body. You have to get in there and take them out without hesitation. If you hesitate, you give your enemies a chance to analyze what you are about to do and come it with counter moves. Either you do it or you don't. Like in Muay Thai, they condition people to this kind of stress...that's why Muay Thai boxers have the reputations for being nearly unbeatable and seemingly invincible. A lot of UFC champions were trained in Thailand, like, Anderson Silva the Spiderman, for example....

You have to get in there and just do what you need to do... I beat up a guy that was 6'3" because I was determine to do it and did what I had to do; I got right in there and started punching. At the end of the boxing match...everybody was cheering.

It only takes a split second for you to stab someone with knife or take them out...and vice versa. It only takes a split second for someone to dropped dead on the ground or severely beaten up. You can't be deterred about the possibilities of getting hurt or even killed because that would just work against you. In war and fight people get hurt and killed so if you are going to survive you can't really let it bother you too much...it comes with the job. It's either you kill them or they kill you. You can't mock and play around like you see in the movies. Finish the job and get on with it.
 
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Just as the Star Trek universe has it's consistent internal rules with technology....ion interference jams transporters, phasers can't be used at warp, warp core cannot destabilize.....it seems to have unknowingly written rules of hand to hand combat that are cannon. They might not be real-life like, but as fans of that universe we know them.

1. One neck chop from behind knocks anyone out in an instant. They might grunt, but they will not scream or stay awake more than a second.

2. Vulcan neck pinches do the same with less force one ALL species but can only be done by Vulcans. Though Odo and Data did it as needed. Not sure WHAT Picard's version was.

3. All security guards can be surprised and overpowered by villians so they can escape and threaten the ship. Many examples like in Dagger of the Mind, Power Play and Eden.

4. All major heros can beat up security guards at any time even if they are younger and SHOULD be better trained. Decker in Doomsday Machine. Odo in "Paradise Lost" , Spock in Turnabout Intruder.

5. One gut punch, followed by a double-handed blow to the back knocks out anyone!
Decker in Doomsday Machine.

Lastly, it's hard to think of a time when security actually won a fight or won! How did the Ferengi overpower the whole security division in TNG Rascals? Those little dudes in Eden/TOS knocked out the security in the brig! Decker was WAY older and weaker looking than the guard he knocked out in about 15 seconds of fighting! In Dagger of the Mind security is told to find a dangerous criminal and they waltz in....one of them is choked out, his phaser taken in 5 seconds, the ONE one the bridge with his back to the only entrance is knocked out by the ubiquitous karate chop to the neck. One blow. It goes on and on. I like the fights but I wonder what the conversation is in the security division locker room...!? "That old guy Decker knocked you out in a toe to toe fight??" What? VanGelder surprised and choked you out when you knew where he was?? He's 60!" "What, Odo knocked 3 of you out and you got off no blows or phaser shots ever??"

-Greg Henley
 
Just as the Star Trek universe has it's consistent internal rules with technology....ion interference jams transporters, phasers can't be used at warp, warp core cannot destabilize.....it seems to have unknowingly written rules of hand to hand combat that are cannon. They might not be real-life like, but as fans of that universe we know them.

1. One neck chop from behind knocks anyone out in an instant. They might grunt, but they will not scream or stay awake more than a second.

2. Vulcan neck pinches do the same with less force on ALL species but can only be done by Vulcans. Though Odo and Data did it as needed. Not sure WHAT Picard's two-handed version was.

3. All security guards can be surprised and overpowered by villians so they can escape and threaten the ship. Many examples like in Dagger of the Mind, Power Play and Eden.

4. All major heros can beat up security guards at any time even if they are younger and SHOULD be better trained. Decker in Doomsday Machine. Odo in "Paradise Lost" , Spock in Turnabout Intruder, VanGelder in Dagger.

5. One gut punch, followed by a double-handed blow to the back knocks out anyone!
Decker in Doomsday Machine. AF captain in Tomorrow is Yesterday.

Lastly, it's hard to think of a time when security actually won a fight or won! How did the Ferengi overpower the whole security division in TNG Rascals? Those little dudes in Eden/TOS knocked out the security in the brig! Decker was WAY older and weaker looking than the guard he knocked out in about 15 seconds of fighting! In Dagger of the Mind security is told to find a dangerous criminal and they waltz in....one of them is choked out, his phaser taken in 5 seconds, the ONE one the bridge with his back to the only entrance is knocked out by the ubiquitous karate chop to the neck. One blow. It goes on and on. I like the fights but I wonder what the conversation is in the security division locker room...!? "That old guy Decker knocked you out in a toe to toe fight??" What? VanGelder surprised and choked you out when you knew where he was?? He's 60!" "What, Odo knocked 3 of you out and you got off no blows or phaser shots ever??"

-Greg Henley
 
Combat is always pretty screwy in Trek. One of my favourite moments is from DS9. A bunch of Jem'Hadar beam onto the bridge of the Defiant, with their guns pointed directly at the crew, but instead of shooting, they raise the guns over their heads and use them as clubs.
 
TGirl----you thought the fight between Decker and the guard was well choreographed? As in real or...?
 
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