Starfleet Academy Starship Thread

[Macintosh]

They work well for the 24th century because the majority of them are just 24th century designs with different skins. The Ross Class, Sutherland class etc are just malibu stacey with a new hat.

In the case of the Ross-class it's a bloody ugly new hat...

 

[Tuskin38]

The nacelles have nothing to do with what I was referring to.

well all the designs fit together, so I have no idea what you're referring to.

 

[Dukhat]

In the case of the Ross-class it's a bloody ugly new hat...

The Ross and Sutherland classes really make no logical sense as 2401 designs. They don't follow the design flow from the Sovereign/Nova/Intrepid/Prometheus etc., because they were just skins for the Galaxy and Nebula classes.

well all the designs fit together, so I have no idea what you're referring to.

What I'm referring to is that none of the DSC S1 ships look like they are from pre-TOS, and someone who never saw those ships before would be hard-pressed to determine what era they actually came from. Some look like they were built post-TUC, some look like they'd be right at home in the FC fleet, and some look like ships from the year 2399 docked over Utopia Planitia before it was attacked...

And obviously someone in the production thought the way I do, because SNW shows completely different designs that hark back more to TOS, and even when they reused the DSC ships, they gave them round nacelles to compensate for their total lack of TOS design influences.

And you know what? I realize that we are very far off the topic of SFA starships, since DSC and PIC ships have nothing to do with this discussion. Sorry for the segue.

 

[Eudoxia]

The design Eaves recycled for the Inquiry cut-and-paste fleet was the top ship here:

This is the original concept (C) that became the "Neptune-class" and then the Inquiry-class. It was originally made for Deep Space 9 and then developed further for STO, and then of course for PIC.

The Springer and the Orla would've been perfect background ships in DS9, First Contact, etc.

New Orleans and Challenger blend a bit more nicely as "modern" whereas the Springfield, Freedom, Niagara, and Cheyenne are clearly somewhere in that transitional step between Ambassador and Galaxy (I'm personally a fan of the idea that Niagara and Freedom were one off prototyping and testing models for Galaxy components then pushed into service). But I agree broadly speaking.

And look at his DSC season 1 ships, which were a hodgepodge of designs most of which do not conform to any specific era, and could have been used as FC ships for all the viewing audience knew.

Again, because they all came out of the Sampson-class, which became the Walker and the Shepard, and then the others were built out of other concepts for the Walker and Shepard.

That being said as SNW S3 has shown, several work fine as pre-TOS designs with cylindrical nacelles. They should have just given them the USS Kelvin Nacelle design.

In the case of the Ross-class it's a bloody ugly new hat...

I have my issues with it but it's miles better than the other "I hate the Enterprise-E" fan-redesigns of the Galaxy-class IMO.

The Ross and Sutherland classes really make no logical sense as 2401 designs. They don't follow the design flow from the Sovereign/Nova/Intrepid/Prometheus etc., because they were just skins for the Galaxy and Nebula classes.

I think the broader problem here is that there's a habit among fans to translate designs back into previous eras (see the Kusanagi/Matsumoto for the Akira, or the Ushaan and Rapier for the Saber, or now the new "TOS Nebula" model). I don't like that for a lot of reasons.

That being said, I think the Ross does a better job of applying Sovereign and Type-11 shuttle design language than a lot of other designs. Most just feel like... oversized, flat Sovereigns, like the Polaris, Excalibur, or Century.

Odyssey actually feels like it takes the Sovereign's language and builds on it for a new era at least.

someone who never saw those ships before would be hard-pressed to determine what era they actually came from

They actually give a pretty nice post-Romulan War, pre-Kelvin vibe IMO.

and some look like ships from the year 2399 docked over Utopia Planitia before it was attacked...

That was in 2385. That being said yes, the 2390s Inquiry lines are apparent in the design.

 

[Tuskin38]

This is the original concept (C) that became the "Neptune-class" and then the Inquiry-class. It was originally made for Deep Space 9 and then developed further for STO, and then of course for PIC.

Hm, I thought these were concepts for the DS9 Documentary.

 

[137th Gebirg]

I think so too - for DS9's hypothetical "6th season" pitch by RDM and Behr. That 4-engine one in the middle looks like the concept for the Emmett Till. All of them much too 24th century to be legacy DS9.

 

[Eudoxia]

That's what I meant, they were concepts for the 8th season that never got made. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

EDIT: IIRC, there were two phases of development for a season 8 weren't there? The writing Ira Stephen Behr and others did in the late 2010s was separate from what was originally done back before it was announced it wouldn't be renewed AFAIK. I distinctly remember Nog dying in both versions, but originally it was with him as a young officer at the end of the season, killed at San Fran on Earth, wasn't it?

 

[137th Gebirg]

Oh yeah - 8th season, you're right. I was stuck in Enterprise mode for some bizarre reason.

The one scene I remember about Nog was him approaching DS9 in the Defiant (or a member of the Defiant's class) and it blew up when he was trying to warn them about something, as a part of the cold open. After that, it's all a bit fuzzy. Been a while since I've watched it.

 

[Michael]

EDIT: IIRC, there were two phases of development for a season 8 weren't there? The writing Ira Stephen Behr and others did in the late 2010s was separate from what was originally done back before it was announced it wouldn't be renewed AFAIK. I distinctly remember Nog dying in both versions, but originally it was with him as a young officer at the end of the season, killed at San Fran on Earth, wasn't it?

Are you sure, because I think this is the first time I‘ve ever heard that there was anyone thinking there might have been an eighth season back when the show was in production. I always heard Behr knew seven was the number of seasons they would get, just like The Next Generation before it.

 

[Tosk]

Are you sure, because I think this is the first time I‘ve ever heard that there was anyone thinking there might have been an eighth season back when the show was in production. I always heard Behr knew seven was the number of seasons they would get, just like The Next Generation before it.

Yeah, I have no idea what that's about. All the anecdotes in the DS9 Companion make it very clear they knew that seven was the ending. And the only mention of a season eight I could find in 'The Fifty Year Mission volume 2' was this:

Deep Space Nine could have kept going, but I kept saying, “Look, we’re greedy Americans and we’re never satisfied. We always want more. And I get that. But seven is enough.” I really convinced myself of that. You know, how dare we be so greedy that we want more?
But in actuality, we could have kept going. There were lots of places to go that would have been interesting. If we had done a season eight, most likely it would have been the season that, given the time we would have been doing it, where a lot of fans probably would have thrown up their hands because we probably really would have gone for it in terms of continuing to question things. -- Ira Steven Behr

I'm very curious to hear more about this claim.

 

[Dukhat]

This is the original concept (C) that became the "Neptune-class" and then the Inquiry-class. It was originally made for Deep Space 9 and then developed further for STO, and then of course for PIC.

Again, that concept "C" ship was recycled from the defunct STO ship design Eaves made back in 2008.

Again, because they all came out of the Sampson-class, which became the Walker and the Shepard, and then the others were built out of other concepts for the Walker and Shepard.

Huh? The Sampson class was where they got the Wallenberg tug from for PIC, not any ships from DSC season 1.

They actually give a pretty nice post-Romulan War, pre-Kelvin vibe IMO.

The only ship that gives that impression to me is the Engle class, which was clearly based on the NX-01. All of the other designs look far too advanced to be pre-TOS ships to me.

That was in 2385. That being said yes, the 2390s Inquiry lines are apparent in the design.

Yes, I misstated the date for "Children of Mars." However, I was referring to the use of the Magee and Helios classes from DSC as ships from 2385.

Are you sure, because I think this is the first time I‘ve ever heard that there was anyone thinking there might have been an eighth season back when the show was in production. I always heard Behr knew seven was the number of seasons they would get, just like The Next Generation before it.

Yeah, I have no idea what that's about. All the anecdotes in the DS9 Companion make it very clear they knew that seven was the ending. And the only mention of a season eight I could find in 'The Fifty Year Mission volume 2' was this:

I'm very curious to hear more about this claim.

I had a chance to see the DS9 documentary a few years ago on my first Star Trek cruise. Ira Behr was there, and I never got the impression from him that they thought they were going to get an eighth season, nor that this story about Nog dying and the Defiant blowing up was going to be the storyline. Since the story takes place many years after DS9 ended (Ezri is now captain of the Emmett Till), it was obviously written years after the fact.

 

[Spike730]

The only ship that gives that impression to me is the Engle class, which was clearly based on the NX-01. All of the other designs look far too advanced to be pre-TOS ships to me.

I don't know. The saucer with the beveled edge screams Excelsior‑class to me.

 

[Dukhat]

I don't know. The saucer with the beveled edge screams Excelsior‑class to me.

The Excelsior isn’t pre-TOS.

 

[Eudoxia]

Again, that concept "C" ship was recycled from the defunct STO ship design Eaves made back in 2008.

I think somewhere I got my timeline of dates confused. I could have sworn that was actually drawn back in 1999.

Huh? The Sampson class was where they got the Wallenberg tug from for PIC, not any ships from DSC season 1.

It's blatantly obvious when you look at the rear 3/4 view:

However, I was referring to the use of the Magee and Helios classes from DSC as ships from 2385.

Ah, well in their cases they clearly do not fit in to the 2380s. The deflectors and nacelles are completely wrong, they lack phaser arrays, and that's before getting into hull aztecing, windows, etc. The only thing that makes them look vaguely acceptable is the gunmetal coloration, which I always kinda disliked. Hell, the Magee and the Helios, barring the nacelles, are probably the two most TOS-looking ships of the DIS ships if you just change up the material on the hull, which people do in STO all the time.

 

[Dukhat]

It's blatantly obvious when you look at the rear 3/4 view:

The 'Sampson class' came after the Walker class. PIC debuted in 2020, and DSC debuted in 2017. So the Sampson could not have influenced the design of the DSC ships, because it was designed after them. But I understand the confusion, as most of Eaves' starship designs tend to all look alike.

Anyway, my point was that the DSC season 1 ships looked completely different from each other, and none of them resembled TOS ships at all, but rather more advanced looking ships, perhaps post-TUC or even the TNG movie era.

As for the comparison between the Walker and the Leondegrance: The 'smaller, versatile attack ship "A"' is a sketch Eaves made for a contemporary ship to the 2370's Sovereign class, back in 2006. For some reason, either he or someone who found this artwork online used it to represent the USS Leondegrance, a ship built during the TMP era, for Picard's Speed of Light award in PIC. Clearly the design is wildly anachronistic for the time period it was supposed to hail from. Someone else thought it resembled the Walker class Eaves designed 11 years later for DSC, and some other idiot at Memory Alpha decided they were related. And while it's possible Eaves took design cues from this old sketch when he designed the Walker class, it really only superficially resembles it. But that being said, neither design looks like it fits the time period it was meant to exist in.

 

[Spike730]

The Excelsior isn’t pre-TOS.

Yes, you said the Engle looks pre-TOS, and I was just pointing out why it looks more like something from the Excelsior-era to me.