Starfleet Academy General Discussion Thread

[Char Kais]

Interview: Paul Giamatti On Channeling Gul Dukat For His ‘Star Trek: Starfleet Academy’ Villain

In Brazil, Giamatti talked about how DS9 is his favorite Star Trek series.

trekmovie.com

Paul Giamatti On Channeling Gul Dukat For His ‘Star Trek: Starfleet Academy’ Villain

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I think some people are a bit confused about the PR messaging. What is with the nostalgia bait?
Isn't SFA supposed to be for new Star Trek fans?

 

[Unionized Elf]

Made by the same people who made Discovery

Except, it isn't. Aside from Kurtzman and a few others who have stewardship of the franchise overall, the production and writing staff on this show is completely different from Disco's.

Has a big bad. Yet again.

And? We knew going in that Picard S3 would have a Big Bad, and that was apparently the most brilliant of modern Treks or something.

 

[Christmas Canon Spock]

Picked over Legacy show that billions of fans actually wanted.

Can't even get past the first reason. This is laughable.

 

[SantaEddie74]

I love canon references and even I didn't want Legacy.

 

[eschaton]

DSC had a lot of goodwill going in but fell off pretty hard during the first season.
If anything reminds anyone of DSC it's gonna be a hard sell.
Nu-Trek had a huge push but nothing stuck unfortunately, even SNW fell off.

In a way, you can use the MCU as an analogue, insofar as there were some movies which still did well despite notable flaws/mixed critical/fan response (MoM, Quantumania, Love and Thunder) until it got to the point where people wouldn't show up in the theaters for genuinely good movies like Thunderbolts.

Turning to Trek in particular, remember that the most recent new project in Trek was the Section 31 TV movie. It's something that largely happened because Kurtzman had been pushing for it since Discovery's second season wrapped up, and was so into the idea he refused to let it die even after the writers who pitched the original series idea quit. And it was awful.

This is another project that exists largely because Kurtzman thought it was a good idea, and wanted to find a way to launch it.

It's kinda sad, but with these kind of big franchises, it's just subtractive, not additive over time, unless you bring something pretty unique to the table. Each new project alienates some folks, which results in an even smaller audience for what comes next.

 

[eschaton]

Interview: Paul Giamatti On Channeling Gul Dukat For His ‘Star Trek: Starfleet Academy’ Villain

In Brazil, Giamatti talked about how DS9 is his favorite Star Trek series.

trekmovie.com

Member Gul Dukat?
Member DS9?
Member good Star Trek?

I think some people are a bit confused about the PR messaging. What is with the nostalgia bait?
Isn't SFA supposed to be for new Star Trek fans?

It's on Trekmovie.com, of course it will be pandering to Trek fans!

That said, Giamatti says absolutely all the right things here, and he's an incredible actor, so this makes me cautiously optimistic, at least insofar as his role is concerned.

 

[Jason X-Mas]

An irony that so many of these gravitated towards Prodigy which was even more explicitly not aimed at them.

I think that is because people went in with low expectations and were surprised how much fun the show is. I would also say the show is very low key in terms of politics. It's got very simple themes about friendship and characters just having a adventure. It has nothing to say about our world that is controversial in any way.

 

[Jason X-Mas]

I love canon references and even I didn't want Legacy.

If they had made it my money is eveyone's reaction to Legacy who didn't want it would be like Peter Griffin's reaction to the Kathy Ireland cardboard poster.

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[Detached Nacelle]

I think that is because people went in with low expectations and were surprised how much fun the show is. I would also say the show is very low key in terms of politics. It's got very simple themes about friendship and characters just having a adventure. It has nothing to say about our world that is controversial in any way.

See that is the description of a kids' show and not a "real" for lack of a better term Star Trek show.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Sometimes I wonder if people who want Star Trek to be non-controversial and non-political do so because the progressive social commentary, which has always been there, sometimes challenges their own world views. And instead of examining their own worldviews, which makes them uncomfortable, they instead choose to dismiss the source of their discomfort as being "woke" or "preachy".

True story. I was raised in a very Evangelical household and was taught to avoid "the gays" at the cost of my soul. Even though TNG and DS9 had done allegorical stories with LGBTQ themes, I always Justified those stories to myself by saying, "well these are alien species, and we can't judge them by human standards".

It was a Star Trek comic, of all things, that got me to question my worldview on the subject. One of the main characters of Marvel's Starfleet Academy series (how's that for a full circle moment?) was depicted as being gay. However, it was buried so far in subtext, that my naive younger self never picked up on any of the clues.

Then in one issue, they made all the subtext abundantly clear enough that I finally put things together. A thoroughly disagreeable and unlikable character had figured things out and gone to Captain Sisko complaining about the unholy relationship. And I agreed with him. Every word.

Of course, his complaints were rightly slapped down by Sisko and dismissed as bigotry. Even though I knew in the moment that Sisko was right, I can't even describe to you how enraged this made me in that same moment. However after time to reflect -- and not a brief period -- I realized that I had seen myself in a Star Trek antagonist and didn't like what I saw. That this was no different than any other representation of Star Trek's ideals that I had watched the story and nodded along with. It was the first domino to fall of my previously toxic worldview. I view it as a change for the better.

So, yeah, Star Trek's woke preaching messaging had what I honestly believe to be a positive influence on who I am as a human being. That's what Star Trek does. That's what Star Trek has always done. If it ceases to do that, it will cease to be Star Trek.

 

[Jason X-Mas]

See that is the description of a kids' show and not a "real" for lack of a better term Star Trek show.

I don't think anyone was ever under the illusion that Prodigy was not made for kids. It's just that people like it in despite of that. People also seem to like Lower Decks as well but unlike Lower Deck, I think Prodigy aims more for action adventure than being a comedic parody of Trek.They also I feel were successful at being what they were designed to be more than both Picard and Discovery.

Prodigy's big failure in getting kids to watch was it was more for kids of my generation I suspect. I think ever Gen Xer kid would have loved the show. Kids today are into something I am not so sure what they are into. I didn't grow up on the internet like they have so they are harder to figure out.

Picard though failed to be what it wanted which was I think a Prestige showcase for Patrick Stewart to talk about Brexit. Discovery I feel like it wanted to be Game of Thrones meets Buffy:The Vampire Slayer with a feminist slant in comparison to older Trek shows that tend to be male-centric with Starfleet being a military and all and male leads, including even Voyager that had Trek's first female captain.

It kind of fell apart though when Fuller was fired and Burnham ended up not being all that interesting of a character to build a show around. Unlike Picard though they didn't give up on the theme they were going for. They just never had someone as talented as Fuller in charge to make it ever work.

SNW I think is liked because it did become what it set out to be. Classic Old School Trek merged with some modern sensibilities. Only real change is I feel like they have embraced comedy more than they planned to.

 

[Jason X-Mas]

Sometimes I wonder if people who want Star Trek to be non-controversial and non-political do so because the progressive social commentary, which has always been there, sometimes challenges their own world views. And instead of examining their own worldviews, which makes them uncomfortable, they instead choose to dismiss the source of their discomfort as being "woke" or "preachy".

True story. I was raised in a very Evangelical household and was taught to avoid "the gays" at the cost of my soul. Even though TNG and DS9 had done allegorical stories with LGBTQ themes, I always Justified those stories to myself by saying, "well these are alien species, and we can't judge them by human standards".

It was a Star Trek comic, of all things, that got me to question my worldview on the subject. One of the main characters of Marvel's Starfleet Academy series (how's that for a full circle moment?) was depicted as being gay. However, it was buried so far in subtext, that my naive younger self never picked up on any of the clues.

Then in one issue, they made all the subtext abundantly clear enough that I finally put things together. A thoroughly disagreeable and unlikable character had figured things out and gone to Captain Sisko complaining about the unholy relationship. And I agreed with him. Every word.

Of course, his complaints were rightly slapped down by Sisko and dismissed as bigotry. Even though I knew in the moment that Sisko was right, I can't even describe to you how enraged this made me in that same moment. However after time to reflect -- and not a brief period -- I realized that I had seen myself in a Star Trek antagonist and didn't like what I saw. That this was no different than any other representation of Star Trek's ideals that I had watched the story and nodded along with. It was the first domino to fall of my previously toxic worldview. I view it as a change for the better.

So, yeah, Star Trek's woke preaching messaging had what I honestly believe to be a positive influence on who I am as a human being. That's what Star Trek does. That's what Star Trek has always done. If it ceases to do that, it will cease to be Star Trek.

I think modern Trek and really all tv and movies more or less have the same problem when it comes to doing political stories and dealing with social commentary. In the past when a show had something to say about racism or corporate greed or really any issue it didn't have to compete against social media. I mean what is social media but a 24/7 non-stop machine of constant never ending commentary on politics.

Chances are whatever a show has to say about any issue has already been hashed out a million times already on social media. Combine that with political correctness, corporate desire to make content and not art and over saturation of political talk then it really does get hard for any show anymore to have anything actually interesting and new to say about anything.

 

[Christmas Canon Spock]

I think that is because people went in with low expectations and were surprised how much fun the show is. I would also say the show is very low key in terms of politics. It's got very simple themes about friendship and characters just having a adventure. It has nothing to say about our world that is controversial in any way.

Hahaha...bullshit.

Chances are whatever a show has to say about any issue has already been hashed out a million times already on social media. Combine that with political correctness, corporate desire to make content and not art and over saturation of political talk then it really does get hard for any show anymore to have anything actually interesting and new to say about anything.

So, Trek since TNG.

 

[Santa Kang]

I was talking about something "in universe" but do go on...

Like I said, they'll get mentioned when they get mentioned. That's how "in universe" works.

 

[Santa Kang]

Made by the same people who made Discovery and even has some of that shows actors in it. Despite the fact that show wasn't liked.

So is Strange New Worlds.

 

[eschaton]

Sometimes I wonder if people who want Star Trek to be non-controversial and non-political do so because the progressive social commentary, which has always been there, sometimes challenges their own world views. And instead of examining their own worldviews, which makes them uncomfortable, they instead choose to dismiss the source of their discomfort as being "woke" or "preachy".

True story. I was raised in a very Evangelical household and was taught to avoid "the gays" at the cost of my soul. Even though TNG and DS9 had done allegorical stories with LGBTQ themes, I always Justified those stories to myself by saying, "well these are alien species, and we can't judge them by human standards".

It was a Star Trek comic, of all things, that got me to question my worldview on the subject. One of the main characters of Marvel's Starfleet Academy series (how's that for a full circle moment?) was depicted as being gay. However, it was buried so far in subtext, that my naive younger self never picked up on any of the clues.

Then in one issue, they made all the subtext abundantly clear enough that I finally put things together. A thoroughly disagreeable and unlikable character had figured things out and gone to Captain Sisko complaining about the unholy relationship. And I agreed with him. Every word.

Of course, his complaints were rightly slapped down by Sisko and dismissed as bigotry. Even though I knew in the moment that Sisko was right, I can't even describe to you how enraged this made me in that same moment. However after time to reflect -- and not a brief period -- I realized that I had seen myself in a Star Trek antagonist and didn't like what I saw. That this was no different than any other representation of Star Trek's ideals that I had watched the story and nodded along with. It was the first domino to fall of my previously toxic worldview. I view it as a change for the better.

So, yeah, Star Trek's woke preaching messaging had what I honestly believe to be a positive influence on who I am as a human being. That's what Star Trek does. That's what Star Trek has always done. If it ceases to do that, it will cease to be Star Trek.

While I agree with this wholeheartedly, I don't think that Kurtzman Trek has been particularly good at politics, and for the most part has been way, way less political than either of the two earlier incarnations. When it does engage in politics, it's mostly just via "representation" - where the inclusion of a character is supposed to say something, but the actual text of the story doesn't say much, or even coherently gesture towards an question we're supposed to turn over. And sometimes they inadvertently got across the opposite political ideal than was intended.

• DIS Season 1 kind of gestured a bit at politics. At times, the Klingons were intended to be stand-ins for religious fanatics, or even MAGA, and Lorca was supposed to be a bit Trump-coded too. However, the ultimate conclusion of the season is "We are Starfleet, we are better than genocide - but installing a pliant leader as the head of a foreign state with a WMD is completely aligned with our values!"
• From Season 2 onward, politics were essentially completely absent from Discovery. There was representation, and after Michelle Paradise came on, a sort of general theming around connection/being seen, but nothing that rose to the level of toying with ideas (which I found quite strange, considering what a big LeGuin fan she supposedly was).
• PIC Season 1 made a lot of allegorical gestures towards politics which seemed like they might go somewhere interesting, touching on post-911 hysteria, refugee crises, the lives of hated minorities, etc. However, all the early season set-up was sort of lost in the Mass-Effect ripoff robot space tentacles. The final message of the season was essentially "Can't we all just get along" - hardly controversial.
• PIC Season 2 arguably got even more explicit with the present-day setting. But other than Guinan's soapboxing about how awful the present day is, and the ICE plotline that went nowhere, it amounted to nothing (like much of the season). To the extent the day was saved, it wasn't even due to the values espoused by the Federation in particular.
• PIC Season 3 was studiously apolitical. Arguably it accidentally fell into right-wing coding by the end of the season, as one can allegorically read it as a story about how all the young have fallen to the woke mind virus, and only old people can be the saviors of all that is right and good. To be clear, I don't think that's Matalas's intent, but still.
• SNW has been all over the map, since it's an episodic show, but I think a lot of the politics are essentially centrist (like in the pilot, where Pike admonishes both sides to just stop fighting). Ad Astra, Per Aspera is probably the most political Trek episode of the modern era, and just amounts to "don't be a bigot." - which shouldn't be controversial (but unfortunately, is).

I don't think it's really worth considering LDS, PRO, or S31 (ick) here. Ultimately, all modern Trek has to say about politics is we shouldn't be intolerant. We should accept one another, not make them second class citizens, and not murder them. That's it. And it's thin gruel compared to past political outings like The Drumhead, Chain of Command, In the Pale Moonlight, Duet, etc.

 

[Christmas Canon Spock]

We should accept one another, not make them second class citizens, and not murder them

We are killers but we're not going to kill today still resonates with me.


Star Trek has missed the political boat for a while. The episodes you list are the outliers, with most Trek content to go down the middle and not rock the boat, with Into Darkness being the last one to really feel on point.

 

[eschaton]

I think modern Trek and really all tv and movies more or less have the same problem when it comes to doing political stories and dealing with social commentary. In the past when a show had something to say about racism or corporate greed or really any issue it didn't have to compete against social media. I mean what is social media but a 24/7 non-stop machine of constant never ending commentary on politics.

Chances are whatever a show has to say about any issue has already been hashed out a million times already on social media. Combine that with political correctness, corporate desire to make content and not art and over saturation of political talk then it really does get hard for any show anymore to have anything actually interesting and new to say about anything.

I think this is 100% wrong, because one of the strengths of allegorical storytelling is that you can break out of the political divide, presenting a question outside of the frame of current public policy, allowing fans to consider their own opinions.

To give an example here, say you decided to do a historical drama based on the Israel/Palestine conflict. No matter how much you tried to even your perspective by showcasing POVs on both sides, presenting complicated questions without clear answers, you would be attacked by people on both sides for having presented a slanted narrative. Many people might not even give the show a chance because they would've heard about bias from friends. On the other hand, if you show an allegorical alien planet, people might not immediately think X = Israel, Y = Palestine, and might be less likely to reflexively respond to the story, allowing for time for it to marinate.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Oh yeah, I agree with that. If anything, the Kurtzman era hasn't gone far enough and it's still it gets smacked down for being "too woke". The same can be said of late era BermaTrek well.

 

[Christmas Canon Spock]

Oh yeah, I agree with that. If anything, the Kurtzman era hasn't gone far enough and it's still it gets smacked down for being "too woke". The same can be said of late era BermaTrek well.

"Too woke" seems to mean "anything I don't agree with."


Like, seriously? I lean more right than left and even I think Star Trek hadn't gone far enough with its commentary for a long time. It's decidingly neutral at times, with people reading in their preferences rather than looking at topics, or other points of view, and trying to talk it out.